Diaw MVP????

[Playmaker0017]

Traceman,

You say

"Until "capspace", "flexibility" and "potential" make up for 21/7, I think we are MUCH worse off than we were before the deal."

I say ... nothing can be doen until the season begins. So quit whining about the lost points and rebounds. At this point, we have lost nothing. The season hasn't started.

Play.

[emeans]

You said "So, it was that two guys were very "immoble" on the offensive end."

Well again the solution is simple Coaching 101.

Glenn and Reef should not play together at the same time on the floor. Or make sure Reef and Glenn's time overlap each other by a minute or so.....

Anyway all of this is gravy...Glenn is gone and it is useless talking about whatifs. He is history.

I am just tired of changing the core every year which again means rebuilding and people putting the sole reason the Hawks lost last year on Glenn Robinson. It was not Glenn Robinson's faught that the Hawks lost.

There were mutliple factors in the teams sorry showing last year and a lot of it had to do with COACHING.

Now when Glenn does well in the 76ers uniform this year and we have problems scoring, then what will people say???? I guess it will be Reefs and JTs faught next.

[Playmaker0017]

Emeans,

If Glenn does well in a sixers uniform, I will be impressed.

Allen won't pass to him once he realizes that he won't get the ball back.

They might start fighting for it at midcourt.

Heh.

Seriously, though... our system is the problem. Agreed. No one sat the team down and said "TEAM, THIS IS OUR PLAN" and then detailed it. No one forced them into roles. No one forced Reef to be a man.

I have always said a good system can make a "so-so" player look dynamite and a poor system can make a "stud" look mediocre.

Glenn was not the right piece, I believe. I don't think we could have built a proper system with the core we had. I think it needed a change. Unfortunately we had to lose someone ... and maybe some"two" or some"three"...

We will see.

Play.

[cyman3]

"I mean, Offensive Schemes, Coaching, PG... "

- the only role player we had that knew his role perfectly was IRA NEWBLE. Reef was confused whether or not hes the first option. GROB wants to get him/jt/reef all in the mix but doesnt know how to effectively share the ball so he takes it into his own hands. Terry has very good games followed by terrible a terrible shooting night.

- u can blame JT all u want... but he fact is, there were many problems.

1)Coach- Kruger/Stotts?

2)No Identity- Golden State became a high scoring offensive team ala Kings. Pistons won every game with low scores playing defense. Nets have that full-court run & shoot game. Pacers played good defense and didnt get intimidated by others. All these teams are forming an identity except for us. We go into the game without a gameplan hoping one of the big 3 (reef/grob/jt) will catch on fire while the other teams already established their #1 & #2 go-to guy.

3)JT- very good scorer but according to ESPN & DIESEL, while he does pass- he doesnt create anything...

4)I would love to see the APG statistics for starting PG + SG (combined). While JT's APG is impressive, he gets absolutely no help when it comes to ball handling and passing. Until he gets a SG that can do that, im not willing to let him go...

U keep stressin point number 3... but we all know we got more problems than point number 3...

----------------------------------------------

diesel, so ur pissed that we got nothing in return for GROB... okay- so who would u rather have then? would u want KEITH VAN HORN?

the only player we can get is someone thats good but overpaid (like Van Horn) or a former allstar thats gettin old (like Sprewell).

We all know that even with SPREWELL we arent going to win the championship... that takes care of shortterm success. we could prob make the playoffs but thats about it, nothing more.

Van Horn wouldnt fit here but he does give us a little shortterm success but not much for the future.

Brandon gives us absolutely NO PRESENT SUCCESS but gives us a better future...

take ur pick diesel...

[emeans]

Exactly Play.

We have never had an identity. Are we a running team? Half Court team? Is Defense our core? Who are the HAWKS?? I have no clue and most of the players probably don't either.

That is why I can't blame this on the players per say. Right now we don't even know who the owner is, so we definitely have no identity right now.

Detroit is a prime example of a team that has an identity and knows what type of team they are trying to put on the floor. They also know what type of coach they need for the system and players they have.

The Hawks did the opposite. They brought in the players and then they tried to figure out...What is our team identity?? What are we trying to do?? Who need to coach the type of team we have??

All of these are questions that should have been answered before any player should have been signed with this organization.

This is why I say everything need to be rebuilt from the top all the way down to the bottom. But tinkering with the middle (the players) every year will not solve the problem.

[Diesel]

Throughout the History of Basketball, Teams have excelled with a Strong Low Post Player and a good Shooter.

I mean.. Shaq/Horry. Hakeem/Horry. Malone/Hornacek. Jordan/Kerr. Barkley/Marjele. Duncan/Kerr. Duncan/Ellie. Duncan/Elliot.

This is just to name a few. We had that same thing with SAR/Grob. The way it should have worked was SAR is the first option in the post. Grob was the second option in the midrange.

The problem. Poor Coaching. Poor Ball handling... Just read KB's midseason thoughts on the Hawks problems in my Sig file.

And... To top it all off, instead of bringing in a good coach and trying to fix our problem with Ball handling. Instead of trying to tweak the system. We take 4 steps backwards and trade Grob for absolutely Nothing.

If we get something more than Dion out of free agency, I will be shocked. I really don't think much of Stephen Jackson. Mentioning Odom was a Joke unless we are ready to part with Theo.

Like I have said before, what we have seen is the beginning of the end. Destruction by Subtraction.

So in the end.

1. We lose out on a midrange shooter who can put up 20 and pull down 7 boards.

2. We don't have anything in return for him.

for those of you who say we have Diaw... NEWSFLASH... We already Had Diaw and Hansen.

What we have said to the league is that we are ready to be the new laughing stock because we don't want to compete.

Seriously. Is this how we are supposed to handle problems... Just throw out everything we don't understand?

I say... SAR, you're next in line....

In the blame game.

[CHORO44]

I liked Big Dog at Purdue - He was the man.

I liked Big Dog with Vin Baker - They were both tight.

I was indifferent to Big Dog with Sam and Ray - Decent combo.

I hate Big Dog with JT and Reef - Makes me sick.

Big Dog is on the downside of his career. In essence he's one dimensional and is slowing down. Since we weren't going to make any noise with the roster prior to the trade I'm glad we sent Big Dog and his 21/7 and his contract elsewhere.

Also when you factor in his turnovers, missed shots, ball hog shots, and poor defense his 21/7 is more like 11/7.

[swolehawk2]

Uhhh.....one thing you overlooked.... those guys stretched the defense beyond the arc ....Dog is usually good for shots from about 15-18 feet and in.

Another thing why don't you ever bring up Dogs defense or ballhandling ...seems like you are obsessed with 20 and 6....it should be more like 14 and 6 because he gives up at leat 6 easy points in TOs

[KB21]

Of course, in your simpleton mind, you think that Diaw has to score 20 and 6 to make it up.

Theo will score 3-5 more points a game without Big Dog. Shareef will score 3-5 more points a game without Big Dog.

Terry will score 3-5 more points a game without Big Dog.

Last season, the Hawks got 5 more points a game from Ira Newble and Dion Glover without big dog than they did with him.

Reef averaged 19.3

Terry averaged 18.5

Glover averaged 17.5

Newble averaged 13.5

Ratliff averaged 10.3

That was the starting five scoring without Big Dog.

With him,

Reef averaged 19.7

Terry averaged 17

Glover averaged 8

Newble averaged 7

Ratliff averaged 7

The Hawks averaged 94 points with him, 92 points without him. They were better defensively. They turned the ball over less. Of course, these are things you want to ignore.

[Diesel]

Yours is the mind that came up with Swift and Damp would be stars in this league?? Right?

Very good.

Alright... The other part.

Since you lean heavily on Statistics and you already noted that we were a worst offensive team with Big Dog on the floor. BTW, how much better defensively were we... You didn't mention.

Also, by the way... How many road games did we play in that Stretch??

Also, by the way.... How many teams (over .500) did we play in that stretch??

Why was it that when we played a team LIKE N.O. on the road, we couldn't manage but 77 points? Why is it that their offense put up 92 points on us?

77 Points KB. That's sorta what we have to look forward to.

[Playmaker0017]

Diesel,

What does KB's argument from 2-4 years ago have ANYTHING to do with Big Dog's contribution (or lack thereof)?

That is just a lame argument.

Furthermore, the insulting phrase at the bottom of your posts is getting old.

Finally, you are like a "Chatty Kathy" doll... you pull the string and listen to the same phrases over and over. I could post your replies before you do.

Here is the simple fact: Big Dog did nothing to prove that he was a valuable addition to the team. Home game, weak team, whatever... he did nothing to prove his worth. For every good shot, he made a terrible blunder.

No one here thinks that the fault of the team lies solely with Big Dog, but many here believe he was a serious issue. We don't think the world will be better now that he is gone, but we believe we can make positive strides in the future.

Big Dog did NOT bring ANYTHING other than a jump shot. In order to MAKE him fit, you needed to trade away another core player or two... in order to make up for his deficiencies. So, either way.... you were going to lose SOMEONE. Get over it.

Play.

[Diesel]

How is my sig line insulting?

This is a quote from KB stating what the problem was at that time with the Hawks.

I love this Hindsight crap that you guys pull and then all the sudden you claim... I was always for so and so and I was always against So and so.

As far as your assessment of what Big Dog brung...

Didn't he bring the Jumpshot.

Didn't he bring good rebounding for a SF.

Didn't he bring a player who could get to the LIne.

Didn't he bring a player who could take the offensive pressure off SAR?

I think if you want to really examine what people bring...

What is JT bringing other than a SHOT First PG....

[Playmaker0017]

Diesel,

Didn't he bring the Jumpshot.

Yes, hye brought it and brought it and brought it and brought it... and he wouldn't quit bringing it until he got shooter's elbow or carpal tunnel syndrome from shooting too darn much. But, the jump shot he brought was okay.

Didn't he bring good rebounding for a SF.

No, not really. He brought okay rebounding. There are plenty of decent rebounding SF... and they would get 6-7 rebounds per game on a poor rebounding team like the Hawks.

Didn't he bring a player who could get to the LIne.

Not especially.

Didn't he bring a player who could take the offensive pressure off SAR?

Certainly not. He actually caused the defenses to collapse on Reef because he couldn't pass the ball and stood about 3 feet away from Reef.

Play.

[emeans]

Play

......again I don't no why we are debating about Glenn, he is history.

However, to say he brought nothing to the team is a far stretch. If he was that useless like some of you guys claim then he wouldn't be in the NBA.

Glenn has already proven he can be very important part of a team that made it to the Eastern Conference Finals and probably should have been in the finals. He has been further in the playoffs than any other Hawk on this present squad. So again to say he brings nothing is a far stretch and sounds a little personal.

Also, I don't want to keep harping on this but I think Glenn does well with the right coach and right scheme. Milwaukee was a force for 3 years with the Big Three.

Lastly we keep jumping on Glenn...Why not jump on some of these other guys that play for the Hawks right now. What about JTs turnovers, what about Shareef's turnovers, what about Chris Crawford's bench warming. What about these sorry coaches we have, not to mention GM and owner.

The point here is that I could find 100 more reasons the Hawks failed other than Glenn Robinson. He is a good scorer that has done pretty well in his NBA career. Lets not forget that.

[Playmaker0017]

EMeans,

Reef's TOs... under 3 is good for someone who handles the ball as much as he does. Not an issue.

JT does turn it over at a pretty good clip. I am hoping some of the additional ball handlers will remove some of those issues.

I mean, there is nothing good to say about the Hawks right now.

Heck, JT isn't even a Hawk right now.

Play.

[Diesel]

I think that there are only 2 SFs that Rebound better than Grob. Matrix and maybe Lewis... MAYBE.

IN fact check out how GRob ranks among SFs in all categories if you please. You will find that he wasn't that bad.

[Playmaker0017]

Diesel,

Isn't it you who always points out that statistics don't show the entire story.

Stick to one side of the argument... either someone's statistics show how good they are or they do not.

Big Dog was not an impressive rebounder.

Play.

[chillzatl]

Grob is a very good rebounding SF. His rebounding stats put him up there among the top 5 SF's in the league.

You can say he's not a good rebounder or was only a good rebounder on a bad rebounding team. But he's averaged 6.2 for his career. That would put him among the top 5-10 in rebounding among SF's over his entire career. Bad rebounding SF's don't average 6.2 over their career.

[mrhonline]

Better rebounders per 48 than Robinson:

Paul Pierce, Shawn Marion, Matt Harpring, Andrei Kirilenko, Desmond Mason, Jumaine Jones, and Richard Jefferson.

Robinson's a good, steady rebounder, but not a great one.

Look at the players who were within 10% of Robinson's rebounding per 48:

Devean George, James Posey, Rashard Lewis, Bonzi Wells, Eric Williams, Peja Stojakovic, and Ruben Patterson.

So the Hawks aren't going to able to replace all of Robinson's rebounds, but they should be able to replace 90% of them. Not a significant loss, especially when compared to scoring.