Joe & Smoove = Better without Marvin?

[Diesel]

Both guy's game elevate when Marvin is not there.

I think a big part is Joe at the Sf.

He has a great advantage over Sfs and if he's switched to the pF, he grinds them up like meat. Boozer looked like Bozo the clown when he was switched on Joe on the perimeter. Joe sized him up and drove him inside. As quick as Boozer is for a PF, he's slow to Joe.

Defensively, you got to applaud Woody. He put Joe on Deron and Bibby didn't guard Deron or we played Zone.

The other thing is that Smoove's game also improves in the abs of Marvin. That is harder to understand. But in the small sample, Smoove has more complete games when Marv's not out there.

[Supporter]

You're mistaking Marvin's absence with playing at home.

[NineOhTheRino]

You know this won't be pretty?

[exodus]

What great insight! Marvin's absence is the reason JJ is 7-12 from 3 in the last two games. Marvin's absence is the reason Smith has 25 rebounds in the last two games!

Looks like Diesel's keen insight allows him to see things everyone else wouldn't notice..... or maybe Diesel's perpetual hate for Marvin causes him to live in an alternate universe where Marvin is the root of all evil.

[dhawk]

The Hawks need Marvin's contribution. The increased production from Joe & Smoove is partly due because there are more shots and rebounds available in Marvin's absence. Somebody's got to get them.

Plus, the Hawks used to try to get Marvin going early, looks like that's working for Joe now instead.

[buckeye242424]

What great insight! Marvin's absence is the reason JJ is 7-12 from 3 in the last two games. Marvin's absence is the reason Smith has 25 rebounds in the last two games!

Looks like Diesel's keen insight allows him to see things everyone else wouldn't notice..... or maybe Diesel's perpetual hate for Marvin causes him to live in an alternate universe where Marvin is the root of all evil.

Both arguments are true. We have played better with Marvin out, coincidentally, we just happened to be at home while doing so. While, personally, I think we're better with Marvin..I also concede that these past few games without him the Hawks have been impressive, obviously - Big wins over good teams.

Both arguments are true. We have played better with Marvin out, coincidentally, we just happened to be at home while doing so. While, personally, I think we're better with Marvin..I also concede that these past few games without him the Hawks have been impressive, obviously - Big wins over good teams.

[exodus]

Both arguments are true. We have played better with Marvin out, coincidentally, we just happened to be at home while doing so. While, personally, I think we're better with Marvin..I also concede that these past few games without him the Hawks have been impressive, obviously - Big wins over good teams.

In the first 4 games this month Smith got a total of 14 rebounds.

He got benched by Woody in the 2nd half of the Bobcats game. Since that time Smith has 38 rebounds in 3 games.

Smith averaged 18.6 ppg in january shooting 53%. Obviously Marvin was playing at that time. Trying to tie Smith's production in with Marvin's absense is ridiculous.

JJ averaged 24 ppg in January shooting 47% (playing the 2) so i don't think Marvin's presence was hurting his production either.

[buckeye242424]

In the first 4 games this month Smith got a total of 14 rebounds.

He got benched by Woody in the 2nd half of the Bobcats game. Since that time Smith has 38 rebounds in 3 games.

Smith averaged 18.6 ppg in january shooting 53%. Obviously Marvin was playing at that time. Trying to tie Smith's production in with Marvin's absense is ridiculous.

JJ averaged 24 ppg in January shooting 47% (playing the 2) so i don't think Marvin's presence was hurting his production either.

Intentional or not, most likely not, Woody's decision to "call out" Smith during the halftime of the Bobcats game was the best coaching move he's made all year.

[Diesel]

In the first 4 games this month Smith got a total of 14 rebounds.

He got benched by Woody in the 2nd half of the Bobcats game. Since that time Smith has 38 rebounds in 3 games.

Smith averaged 18.6 ppg in january shooting 53%. Obviously Marvin was playing at that time. Trying to tie Smith's production in with Marvin's absense is ridiculous.

JJ averaged 24 ppg in January shooting 47% (playing the 2) so i don't think Marvin's presence was hurting his production either.

Fortunately for us, we have other games than just those of this month. Year long, when Marvin is out, JJ and Smoove Steps up!! There's more evidence for this than you had when you said we're better without Chillz last year.

[exodus]

Fortunately for us, we have other games than just those of this month. Year long, when Marvin is out, JJ and Smoove Steps up!! There's more evidence for this than you had when you said we're better without Chillz last year.

When JJ was out who stepped up their scoring to fill the void? Marvin

When Smith and Bibby were out who stepped up to vill the void? Marvin

Marvin has only missed 7 games on the season. A lot of those games were played against teams that were missing key players of their own (like Houston without Artest, Battier and McGrady).

The reality is that JJ was hot in December and cold in January, both with Marvin. His production has no relevance to Marvin. He is either on or off. Most of the Hawks plays are JJ isos anyway.

Smith had his best month with Marvin playing. There is no relationship to Smith's production and Marvin's absence. Smith stepped up his effort after getting called out by Woody.

[Peoriabird]

Both arguments are true. We have played better with Marvin out, coincidentally, we just happened to be at home while doing so. While, personally, I think we're better with Marvin..I also concede that these past few games without him the Hawks have been impressive, obviously - Big wins over good teams.

So let me get this right, you are saying that we could put any none productive player at the 3 like Thomas Garner and we would be better off than we would be with Marvin in there because Marvin causes Joe and Smith to play worse? I'm sorry, I have to question your intelligence if you believe that!

[buckeye242424]

So let me get this right, you are saying that we could put any none productive player at the 3 like Thomas Garner and we would be better off than we would be with Marvin in there because Marvin causes Joe and Smith to play worse? I'm sorry, I have to question your intelligence if you believe that!

No I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that I agree with what Ex was writing and what Diesel was stating. The both had good arguments/opinions. Joe's production has nothing to do with other players, he's shooting well now...and it just so happens Marvin isnt there. Doesn't mean if Marvin was playing, Joe still wouldn't have a hot hand. From a team aspect, however, Marvin's talent is missed. We're a better TEAM with Marvin.

[Diesel]

When JJ was out who stepped up their scoring to fill the void? Marvin

This actually supports the claim that Marvin and JJ have a hard time co-existing. Marvin out, JJ and Smoove step up. JJ out, Marvin steps up.

Good Look!

This actually supports the claim that Marvin and JJ have a hard time co-existing. Marvin out, JJ and Smoove step up. JJ out, Marvin steps up.

Good Look!

Maybe Marvin should come off the bench in relief of JJ.

[AtLaS]

You're mistaking Marvin's absence with playing at home.

It's this exactly. We just suck on the road, period. And, the fact that JJ is finally playing well again and Josh rebounding makes us a MUCH better team.

[Peoriabird]

This actually supports the claim that Marvin and JJ have a hard time co-existing. Marvin out, JJ and Smoove step up. JJ out, Marvin steps up.

Good Look!

So if we found games where JJ had good shooting night with Marvin in there then those examples would disprove your theory right?

[Diesel]

The reality is that JJ was hot in December and cold in January, both with Marvin. His production has no relevance to Marvin. He is either on or off. Most of the Hawks plays are JJ isos anyway.

Smith had his best month with Marvin playing. There is no relationship to Smith's production and Marvin's absence. Smith stepped up his effort after getting called out by Woody.

Let's talk reality here.

Like it or not... When Marvin is absent, JJ and Smoove play better. The stats show this, when you watch us play, we're more fluid. That really is what Matters. You pointing to what we did with Marvin is kinda Meaningless. The argument is not about Marvin's presence, it's about Marvin's absence.

Bottom line, Marvin should be coming off the bench. Moreover, we should overspend to keep Marvin... seeing that he's easily replacable. I would rather spend money to keep Flip and pay Marvin a BU's salary (3 year 20 Million).... Even with his turnovers, Flip changes the dynamic for our team in a good way.

[Peoriabird]

Maybe Marvin should come off the bench in relief of JJ.

And we should start Mo Evans along with Mike Bibby, 2 of the poorest defenders on the the team? You are making me appreciate Mike Woodson more and more!

[Diesel]

So if we found games where JJ had good shooting night with Marvin in there then those examples would disprove your theory right?

As you know.. that has nothing to do with my theory. My theory is about what happens when Marvin is not on the floor.

That's like you saying that Cars should not have fuel cells because they run on gas so well.

[DrReality]

No one has mentioned the fact that when times are hard, ie a player is out, the rest of the team rallies to pick up the slack. Common thing in sports.

[HawkItus]

I think it has more to do with Flip than the absence of Marvin. When Flip get's more time at the point with JJ and Smoove. It seems to affect the chemistry