When Marvin Returns? What Now?

[Diesel]

Marvin gets his spot back. Plain and simple. Guys don't lose position due to injury. I could see if his personal performance was down, but it wasn't. The simple fact is Joe is playing like Joe. If we had this Joe all year we'd be in contention for homecourt.

Chemistry doesn't matter right?

[capstone21]

Chemistry doesn't matter right?

Its funny how you think it was Marvin's fault that we were not playing well last month.

We had a long road trip and JJ was slumping and Smith was playing like he deserved to be benched.

Marvin was one of the consistent cogs that kept us in it. He gets injured at the same time as we get a long home stand and JJ finally comes out of his slump.

If Joe and Smith were playing like this last month we would have won a lot more back then too. Its nothing to do with Evans being in the starting lineup.

[crimedog]

I'd like to see him come off the bench. I think that the overall talent of the other 4 starters makes Marv's contributions less important, especially when JJ's shot is dropping and Josh is crashing the boards. Since his marginal contribution is lower when our other players are playing better, he might be better suited for the bench where he becomes a massive bench upgrade and gives us one of the better benches in the league with Flip-Marv-Zaza instead of a fairly mediocre bench with Flip-Mo-Zaza.

The issue is one of confidence though. I'm not sure Marv is mentally tough enough to take what he might consider as a demotion (one of the coolest things about Ginobili is that he doesn't consider coming off the bench to be insulting, nor does he thing playing less than 30 min a night to be underuse, he realizes that he's helping his team by doing that).

[Traceman]

OK, let's say we continue this remarkable play without Marvin in the lineup. What happens when he4 is ready to go? Does he go back to being a starter or does he come off the bench?

I have been having a hard time figuring out why we "appear" better without Marvin???

Personally, I think it's more the way Woody is now forced to use the bench, that has improved the team and the entire team chemistry. Starters are more rested and there is more competition among oursleves.

There is no way Mo Evans is a better player than Marvin. Marvin is longer, can rebound and can do so much more than Mo. Mo is good for the open 3. Who is a better defender? I have to say Marvin. So why the recent turnaround after Marvin went down and what happens when he returns??? Discuss.......

You put Marvin back in the starting lineup and keep moving right along. We are a young team who is simply FAR better at home than we are on the road. Period. The winning streak is about us being at home and not Marvin being out. We are 25-7 at home and we lost to BOS, CLE and ORL at home by a COMBINED 8 pts. We proved in the playoffs last year that we can beat ANYBODY in Philips and that hasn't changed. We are 53 and 26 at home over the last 2 years including the playoffs. Any ONE guy being out with the possible exception of JJ (although we have won without him this year too) is not likely to keep us from being able to win at home.

I have said all along that we are better at home against "good" teams than we are on the road against "bad" teams. Whether that makes sense or not is irrelevant. It is what it is. POR is in the same situation. Another talented YOUNG team that is MUCH better at home than on the road. They are 28-6 at home and 13-19 on the road.

Bottom line is that we are a significantly better team with Marvin in the lineup and playing like he can, just as we are a significantly better team when JJ is being JJ and Smoove is being Smoove (Looks like Woody benching him for a half is just what the doctor ordered). Doesn't hurt to have Al getting back to 100% either. We can continue to win at home without Marvin but come playoff time, we are going to need his all around game if we want a shot of making some noise in the playoffs.

[Kimsey]

Marv should come off the bench assuming he is coming back at the cusp of playoff play. He is notoriously known for having trouble getting loose and with the nature of the injury, that will compound the problem.

Just cause he may come off the bench doesn't mean he won't get 30+ minutes. Start Mo for 6-7 minutes let Marv come in and and he'd worked up a rhythm against second team competition. In the 4th, we should have a fresh Marv contributing with a more aggressive mindset.

Now if he comes back in 5 weeks and lights everything up, no problem to speak of. But if he struggles after so long off (likely) and with a stiff back you can't afford him experimenting against playoff competition especially the way they play at Phillips.

[AtLaS]

So why the recent turnaround after Marvin went down and what happens when he returns??? Discuss.......

It's completely obvious, don't know why this is getting so much attention.

1. JJ is finally making shots again. He couldn't land on the ground if he jumped out of a plane prior to these recent events.

2. We are playing at home where we have dominated all year.

[Diesel]

Its funny how you think it was Marvin's fault that we were not playing well last month.

We had a long road trip and JJ was slumping and Smith was playing like he deserved to be benched.

Marvin was one of the consistent cogs that kept us in it. He gets injured at the same time as we get a long home stand and JJ finally comes out of his slump.

If Joe and Smith were playing like this last month we would have won a lot more back then too. Its nothing to do with Evans being in the starting lineup.

You need to go forward to the next question.

Why did Smith and JJ wait until Marvin is gone to start playing well?

Does Marvin being out of the lineup help Smith and JJ?

That's why I mention Chemistry. When there's good chemistry, sometimes you can't point to a "better stat player" but you can point to how well a team does. A great example was given with AI. You can't find a better stat person in the NBA... however, it requires a certain chemistry for a team to be successful with AI.

[AtLaS]

Why did Smith and JJ wait until Marvin is gone to start playing well?

Smith had his best scoring month of the season in January with Marvin in the lineup. JJ had his worst scoring month. Smith didn't rebound at all in January (or February for that matter). Smith isn't playing any better other than getting more rebounds. Why would that be?

That's why I mention Chemistry. When there's good chemistry, sometimes you can't point to a "better stat player" but you can point to how well a team does. A great example was given with AI. You can't find a better stat person in the NBA... however, it requires a certain chemistry for a team to be successful with AI.

That's because AI is past his prime, can't play PG, doesn't play defense and dominates the ball. None are true for Marvin.

Edited March 16, 2009 by AtLaS

[Diesel]

Smith had his best scoring month of the season in January with Marvin in the lineup. JJ had his worst scoring month. Smith didn't rebound at all in January (or February for that matter). Smith isn't playing any better other than getting more rebounds. Why would that be?

That's because AI is past his prime, can't play PG, doesn't play defense and dominates the ball. None are true for Marvin.

Even when AI was in his prime, he needed the right blend of Chemistry around him to be successful!

[AHF]

Even when AI was in his prime, he needed the right blend of Chemistry around him to be successful!

Agreed. I think that is because he dominated the ball.

The question is really whether Marvin's absence helps Josh Smith rebound the ball or JJ make shots. I tend to think "no" and believe that other factors like the player's only meeting, etc. are important concerns for why some of the attitude has changed for certain players.

We should keep watching to see if there are discernable trends but things like Josh Smith's rebounding are entirely dependent on him unless you believe Marvin was getting all those rebounds or Marvin was forcing Josh Smith to the perimeter, IMO.

[mrhonline]

I for one am excited that this team has regained the defensive energy that they had at the beginning of the year. I certainly don't see that changing simply because Marvin is reinserted into the lineup - he wasn't the issue there to begin with.

[High5]

It's so ridiculous to say we're winning because of Marvin being out. We just blew out Portland with Mo, Flip, West, Law, and Zaza registering 11 points (4-11 shooting), 9 rebounds, 3 assists, 11 fouls, and 2 turnovers. I included all those guys to cover all of the possible bases even though Mo, Flip, and Zaza played basically the exact role they always play. And it's not like any of them were playing shutdown defense. Definitely nothing Marvin couldn't do. Except the 11 fouls.

[benhillboy]

I wonder how much sleep Rick Sund is getting. I'm sure he is being bombarded by film, stats, and testimony on what to do with Marvin this summer.

I'm sure Marvin is having odd feelings about his team rolling without him and how it factors into his free agency. In his defense, we were at full strength with him starting at the beginning of the season when we looked like title contenders, record-wise anyway. This was without Solo, Acie, and Rio getting considerable run. This isn't a science experiment where you can matter-of-factly say that we're better off without him or worse with him. What I do know is that Marvin is a good, not great player. Good players change teams about 4 or 5 times in a career, and usually, the franchise that showed him the door won't miss him much in hopes of improving their team.

[Diesel]

It's so ridiculous to say we're winning because of Marvin being out. We just blew out Portland with Mo, Flip, West, Law, and Zaza registering 11 points (4-11 shooting), 9 rebounds, 3 assists, 11 fouls, and 2 turnovers. I included all those guys to cover all of the possible bases even though Mo, Flip, and Zaza played basically the exact role they always play. And it's not like any of them were playing shutdown defense. Definitely nothing Marvin couldn't do. Except the 11 fouls.

Ok, so basically, you're saying the team doesn't matter just Josh, Joe, Horf having a good game.

OK.

So what happened last year?

Last year,

Our defensive plan was the same.

Josh got 17 points and 17 rebounds.

Joe shot just about 50% and scored 37 points.

Horf had 7 points, 11 rebounds...

AND MARVIN PLAYED.

AND WE LOST.

What's the deal?

We were at home.

The big three played very well.

If all these other guys are inconsequential, why did we blow out PTL sunday and we lost to them last year?

[Diesel]

I wonder how much sleep Rick Sund is getting. I'm sure he is being bombarded by film, stats, and testimony on what to do with Marvin this summer.

I'm sure Marvin is having odd feelings about his team rolling without him and how it factors into his free agency. In his defense, we were at full strength with him starting at the beginning of the season when we looked like title contenders, record-wise anyway. This was without Solo, Acie, and Rio getting considerable run. This isn't a science experiment where you can matter-of-factly say that we're better off without him or worse with him. What I do know is that Marvin is a good, not great player. Good players change teams about 4 or 5 times in a career, and usually, the franchise that showed him the door won't miss him much in hopes of improving their team.

If we keep rolling without him and he doesn't come back 100% then his negotiations are going to hell in a handbasket. He will get that 5 year 33 million dollar offer if an offer at all.

Like i have said before, the back is a bad place to have an injury. It controls everything... And Marvin has bad posture from the get go.

His agent must be getting him to rehab.

The problem is that Marvin electing not to have surgery was a contract move. If the Dr. offered surgery that means that it's a serious injury.

However, most people who bypass surgery usually get worse and will have to go to surgery anyway.

So all this talk about Marvin coming back is Moot until he actually comes back. Right now, I think his contract negotiations is in the drivers seat for whatever he does.

[PlayaPat420]

So what happened last year?

Last year,

Our defensive plan was the same.

Josh got 17 points and 17 rebounds.

Joe shot just about 50% and scored 37 points.

Horf had 7 points, 11 rebounds...

AND MARVIN PLAYED.

AND WE LOST.

What's the deal?

We were at home.

The big three played very well.

If all these other guys are inconsequential, why did we blow out PTL sunday and we lost to them last year?

this game was played WITH T LUE and without Bibby. Marvin wasn't playing with the confidence of this year, the bench was TOTALLy different... should I go on?... we weren't nearly as dominate at home last year, etc. But to compare game from two totally separate years really isn't comparable when both teams, players and situations have changed.

Edited March 17, 2009 by PlayaPat420

[Diesel]

this game was played WITH T LUE and without Bibby. Marvin wasn't playing with the confidence of this year, the bench was TOTALLy different... should I go on?... we weren't nearly as dominate at home last year, etc. But to compare game from two totally separate years really isn't comparable when both teams, players and situations have changed.

The thing is Pat, that the original poster basically said that Personnell other than Josh, Joe, and Horf didn't matter for our most recent win. Just as long as the big three played well, then we could beat Portland.

I agree that all those things you mentioned are true... however, that also proves my point. Personnell beyond the big three matters. A team defense, is a TEAM defense.

[AHF]

Ok, so basically, you're saying the team doesn't matter just Josh, Joe, Horf having a good game.

OK.

So what happened last year?

I guess you could also argue the difference was that Josh Childress was there pulling the team down with his team worst +/- differential and 4 TOs that game. Right?

Edited March 17, 2009 by AHF

[Diesel]

I guess you could also argue the difference was that Josh Childress was there pulling the team down with his team worst +/- differential and 4 TOs that game. Right?

Even if we argued that, it would still be personnel driven. You can't treat Josh, Joe, and Horf like quick grits and say just add the rest of the team around them and you win. Us beating PTL was a team effort. Defensively, we handled them. Offensively, they couldn't stop us. Our team chemistry is what set us apart.

[High5]

Ok, so basically, you're saying the team doesn't matter just Josh, Joe, Horf having a good game.

OK.

So what happened last year?

Last year,

Our defensive plan was the same.

Josh got 17 points and 17 rebounds.

Joe shot just about 50% and scored 37 points.

Horf had 7 points, 11 rebounds...

AND MARVIN PLAYED.

AND WE LOST.

What's the deal?

We were at home.

The big three played very well.

If all these other guys are inconsequential, why did we blow out PTL sunday and we lost to them last year?

Reading, writhing, and arithmetic. Never have I seen someone so confidently fail at all three.

I was going to bother typing up a reply but you would just ignore it or fail to comprehend it as usual. Continue living in your fantasy land.