Are we too hard on Woody?

[buckeye242424]

The coach takes the brunt of the criticism when the respected team performs poorly - nature of the beast. Biggest complaints I read around here about Woody are not making in game adjustments, lack of offensive system, and player development and rotations. I'm as gulity as anyone, I don't think Woody is the answer for this team....but my thinking is why? Am I biased because I love the Hawks and watch them every game with the same deficiencies exposed night after night w/o change? Probably. But this got me thinking..

Q: What should I have done differently?

-- Mike Brown, Cleveland

SG: You mean, other than come up with offensive plays or a playbook? I will never understand two things. First, why you didn't mix things up at all : throw a zone at Orlando, try a zone press (which worked really well in the regular season), go super-small when Howard was on the bench and play LeBron at center; something, anything. You just let the Magic do their thing and made no real attempt to throw them off. Perplexing. And second, why did you insist on doubling Howard and leaving their shooters open? One of the reasons I picked you to kill Orlando in my now-infamous chat was because I thought you'd use 24 (and maybe even 30) fouls on Howard, single-team him, make him score 40 points a game to beat you and stay home on their shooters. You did the opposite. I will never in a million years figure out why. It was like watching someone hitting on various female celebrities at a Hollywood party by saying, "Hi, I'm a member of the paparazzi, I have no money, and I have VD" and going down in flames over and over again but feeling like the 23rd time would be the charm. Again, perplexing.

The one recurring theme in this playoffs: coaches' unwillingness to steer the ship away from the iceberg even as the "DANGER! DANGER!" sign was going off. We just covered Mike Brown. Doc Rivers played the same eight guys the exact same way in the exact same style for seven straight Orlando games; never changed a thing, never threw a curveball, never extended his bench, never did anything … and by Game 7, Orlando had the Celtics mastered. Rick Adelman played the Lakers exactly the same pre-Yao and post-Yao. Nate McMillan refused to go small against Houston or turn the tempo up and got smoked. Chicago would have beaten Boston had Vinny Del Negro gone small the whole time instead of out of desperation. And George Karl barely moved during Denver's five-quarter implosion to end the Lakers series; in fact, I think he's still standing there with his hands in his pockets looking like he just caught a whiff of a scorekeeper's fart.

Is it a case of hindsight is 20/20, opinion, or are many of the coaches - limited - like we think Woody is. Could it be were just die hard fans that think we know better and are looking for excuses?

[NJHAWK]

LOL Those 3 words "HARD ON WOODY" :thumbsupsmileyanim: Ok enough with my dirty mind the answer to your original ? is yes we are.

[buckeye242424]

LOL Those 3 words "HARD ON WOODY" :thumbsupsmileyanim: Ok enough with my dirty mind the answer to your original ? is yes we are.

Oops...LOL. My stupid as* should have caught that one.

[AHF]

The coach takes the brunt of the criticism when the respected team performs poorly - nature of the beast. Biggest complaints I read around here about Woody are not making in game adjustments, lack of offensive system, and player development and rotations. I'm as gulity as anyone, I don't think Woody is the answer for this team....but my thinking is why? Am I biased because I love the Hawks and watch them every game with the same deficiencies exposed night after night w/o change? Probably. But this got me thinking..

Q: What should I have done differently?

-- Mike Brown, Cleveland

SG: You mean, other than come up with offensive plays or a playbook? I will never understand two things. First, why you didn't mix things up at all : throw a zone at Orlando, try a zone press (which worked really well in the regular season), go super-small when Howard was on the bench and play LeBron at center; something, anything. You just let the Magic do their thing and made no real attempt to throw them off. Perplexing. And second, why did you insist on doubling Howard and leaving their shooters open? One of the reasons I picked you to kill Orlando in my now-infamous chat was because I thought you'd use 24 (and maybe even 30) fouls on Howard, single-team him, make him score 40 points a game to beat you and stay home on their shooters. You did the opposite. I will never in a million years figure out why. It was like watching someone hitting on various female celebrities at a Hollywood party by saying, "Hi, I'm a member of the paparazzi, I have no money, and I have VD" and going down in flames over and over again but feeling like the 23rd time would be the charm. Again, perplexing.

The one recurring theme in this playoffs: coaches' unwillingness to steer the ship away from the iceberg even as the "DANGER! DANGER!" sign was going off. We just covered Mike Brown. Doc Rivers played the same eight guys the exact same way in the exact same style for seven straight Orlando games; never changed a thing, never threw a curveball, never extended his bench, never did anything … and by Game 7, Orlando had the Celtics mastered. Rick Adelman played the Lakers exactly the same pre-Yao and post-Yao. Nate McMillan refused to go small against Houston or turn the tempo up and got smoked. Chicago would have beaten Boston had Vinny Del Negro gone small the whole time instead of out of desperation. And George Karl barely moved during Denver's five-quarter implosion to end the Lakers series; in fact, I think he's still standing there with his hands in his pockets looking like he just caught a whiff of a scorekeeper's fart.

Is it a case of hindsight is 20/20, opinion, or are many of the coaches - limited - like we think Woody is. Could it be were just die hard fans that think we know better and are looking for excuses?

Brown and Woodson are similarly limited, IMO. Neither has a clue on offense and I would not hire either one to coach a team if I was an owner or GM.

Nate clearly had a bad series. Back to the drawing board during the offseason.

Vinny Del Negro is a terrible coach at this point. He was obviously in over his head last season but played a highly competitive series against a similarly talented team (minus Garnett). I don't see too much to complain about with him during that series (over the course of the season....a different story).

George Karl's team wasn't as good as LA, IMO. They lost their momentum and that was it. I didn't have major problems with the schemes they were running in that series.

Here are two idiotic criticisms:

Doc Rivers' team did an amazing job, IMO. Oh they pushed the Magic to 7 games with Garnett out? This is a bad thing? They were lucky to be that close.

Houston lost Yao Ming and was down 2-1 in the series. They kept running Adelman's system and amazingly pushed the Lakers to the limit. How is this anything but a success story? They did an amazing job of remaining very competitive without T-Mac or Yao.

How do you criticize the fantastic results from Adelman or Rivers? Bad Bill Simmons!

[buckeye242424]

Brown and Woodson are similarly limited, IMO. Neither has a clue on offense and I would not hire either one to coach a team if I was an owner or GM.

Nate clearly had a bad series. Back to the drawing board during the offseason.

Vinny Del Negro is a terrible coach at this point. He was obviously in over his head last season but played a highly competitive series against a similarly talented team (minus Garnett). I don't see too much to complain about with him during that series (over the course of the season....a different story).

George Karl's team wasn't as good as LA, IMO. They lost their momentum and that was it. I didn't have major problems with the schemes they were running in that series.

Here are two idiotic criticisms:

Doc Rivers' team did an amazing job, IMO. Oh they pushed the Magic to 7 games with Garnett out? This is a bad thing? They were lucky to be that close.

Houston lost Yao Ming and was down 2-1 in the series. They kept running Adelman's system and amazingly pushed the Lakers to the limit. How is this anything but a success story? They did an amazing job of remaining very competitive without T-Mac or Yao.

How do you criticize the fantastic results from Adelman or Rivers? Bad Bill Simmons!

But Mike Brown was the COY! How can someone with no offense be COY? (Heavy Sarcasm)

It's just one guy's opinion...I understand, but these are coaches with teams making it deep into the playoffs. Like I mentioned earlier, is it warranted, or someone looking for the scapegoat?

I've been hard on Woody, but his accomplishments as HC here are positive. As an outsider looking in, Woody has done a damn good job! I can't believe I wrote that...that's what eats at me. Maybe I should worry a little less about Woody. It seems every coach should be doing something different....

[AHF]

I think a fair basic ground rule for coaches:

You don't want a coach who (with the hiring of his assistants) can't run an effective defense or offense, you need balance. You don't want a coach who can't motivate his players or command their respect and compliance.

[ATLBob]

Yes, we are too hard on Woody ...

but that doesn't excuse his deficiencies.

[Sothron]

I agree that blasting coaches whose teams showed heart just to stay in it for seven games is a tad silly. Did anyone on Earth expect the Rockets to push the Lakers to seven games with both McGrady AND Ming out? C'mon.

[atlien]

Yes and No.

I think that Yes, sometimes we are too critical on him, as many many many of the team's problems stem from a dearth of talent or specific skillsets. Give Woody another big body (Anderson Varejao), a decent backup pg (say Jarret Jack), and a feisty wing off the bench (say a Pietrus or Ariza), and he instantly would look a lot better.

But at the same time, Woody clearly has many deficiencies himself, most evident on the offensive end of things.

[Cwell]

nope,not at all

[AUhawksfan]

Any coach that doesn't get or command respect from his players should not be the coach of the team. The fact that he has been called out by Bibby and that he has to talk to Josh Smith through other players is pretty sad.

Can you imagine another player trying to call out Phil Jackson, Sloan, or Poppovich? No way jose!

I would be much happier with him though if he at least brought in some kind of offensive coordinator so we could improve on that end.

[buckeye242424]

Any coach that doesn't get or command respect from his players should not be the coach of the team. The fact that he has been called out by Bibby and that he has to talk to Josh Smith through other players is pretty sad.

Can you imagine another player trying to call out Phil Jackson, Sloan, or Poppovich? No way jose!

I would be much happier with him though if he at least brought in some kind of offensive coordinator so we could improve on that end.

No, I can't. Those are HOF coaches though, they among the best to ever coach in the league. Tough comparison's to the majority of coaches in the NBA.

I dunno...just reading the excerpt from the SG got the wheels in motion for me. He made it appear to me that some pretty respectable coaches make bonehead decisions, and could be to blame for losses/elimination. Similar to how Woody is talked about around here. I've just been a Woody hater...and maybe I shouldn't be so hard on the dude.

[JackB1]

On a related note, I know Anthony Johnson's golf instructor and I asked him what he thought about playing under Woody and he told me he respectfully said he was not a good coach and that he didn't like playing under him. He said he wasn't disrespectful, but he didn't have any praise for him at all.

[NowYouKnow]

Well let's see:

- He has no offensive system whatsoever. When the Hawks can't run, they can't score. No pick and rolls. No screens at all really. Nothing to try and get Joe and Josh in rhythm. Josh's offensive growth has been stunted because of Woody. Marvin is finally showing signs of improvement, but hasn't shown them consistently enough. Horford might have gotten marginally better from year one to two, but not much better.

- He's ruining Joe Johnson by overextending him. By not having a playbook, the offense runs entirely through Joe Johnson. He can't continue to face consistent double teams and abuse in the lane for 3,000 minutes a season without some help. Joe was gassed by the playoffs this year and the ankle injury had nothing to do with it.

- I've heard on good authority from multiple sources that every single player on the roster despises him. His flare ups with Josh and Zaza are well known, but I've heard a rumor that there is someone, who we've been clamoring to see more of, has requested a trade with Rick Sund because he hates Woody that much. If that much is right on, I'd be highly surprised to see this guy in a Hawks uni next year.

The reality of the situation is Woodson is a disaster, but you're dealing with a group of owners embroiled in a stupid legal battle with the only member of the group who is actually wealthy. Essentially, you have a percentage of the group taking on 100 percent of the cost of a poorly run NBA team and a disasterous hockey team. They're so cheap they just moved 'Nique to the broadcast booth rather than pay another analyst. They aren't going to fire Woody and have to pay him what he's owed AND another coach.

Would the Hawks radically improve with another coach? Maybe, maybe not. They have, however, peaked under Woodson. They might win 50 games next year, but they won't crack the top 3 in the East and they'll be second round fodder for the Eastern Conference elite.

[AHF]

No, I can't. Those are HOF coaches though, they among the best to ever coach in the league. Tough comparison's to the majority of coaches in the NBA.

I dunno...just reading the excerpt from the SG got the wheels in motion for me. He made it appear to me that some pretty respectable coaches make bonehead decisions, and could be to blame for losses/elimination. Similar to how Woody is talked about around here. I've just been a Woody hater...and maybe I shouldn't be so hard on the dude.

I do think Mike Brown did a disservice to his team with his failures on offense. Nate McMillian also had a bad series, although I did not watch that one closely enough to comment on whether they failed to adjust or underachieved. I don't fault any of the other coaches that the Sports Guy listed and think several of them did outstanding jobs. How the **** do you criticize what Rick Adelman did and be taken seriously as a basketball writer?

[buckeye242424]

I do think Mike Brown did a disservice to his team with his failures on offense. Nate McMillian also had a bad series, although I did not watch that one closely enough to comment on whether they failed to adjust or underachieved. I don't fault any of the other coaches that the Sports Guy listed and think several of them did outstanding jobs. How the **** do you criticize what Rick Adelman did and be taken seriously as a basketball writer?

Good point. It is just Simmons' opinion, take it with a grain of salt. I don't agree with all of his observations, naturally, and I'm not saying I agree completely with his thoughts on coaching in this year's playoffs. It simply got me thinking that every fan base may have major issues with the coaches of their favorite teams - not a ground breaking analysis, I know - but I really was under the impression we had the worst coach in the NBA. Honestly, I went through much of this year thinking what if....despite our success, we could have been better with a different guy at the helm. Maybe we would have, who knows? Heck, maybe we overachieved! Who's to say? So many questions that cannot be answered...but we do have some proof in the pudding. They've gotten better...we're tasting success. For me personally, I just need to cut old potato head some slack.

[MaceCase]

I do think Mike Brown did a disservice to his team with his failures on offense. Nate McMillian also had a bad series, although I did not watch that one closely enough to comment on whether they failed to adjust or underachieved. I don't fault any of the other coaches that the Sports Guy listed and think several of them did outstanding jobs. How the **** do you criticize what Rick Adelman did and be taken seriously as a basketball writer?

I can understand him criticizing them all. Nate for simple stubborness refuses to push the tempo of his team, I'm not sure but I think they ranked last in the league in pace, granted they were efficient with their slow pace but when taking on a Houston team with a 7'6" C with foot problems as it's focal point then the best course of action would be to push the tempo.

Adelman did nothing, absolutely nothing to adjust his teams tactics without Yao against the Lakers. Considering that the Lakers were faultering even before the playoffs started, too many are giving more credit to Houston than realizing the Lakers were actually the ones shooting themselves in the foot (not a Yao pun). I posited in a much earlier playoff thread that Cavs were never the best team in the league but overachieved while the Lakers were but underachieved.

Brown had no semblance of an offense to begin with but looked good taking on an unispired Detroit team with a rookie coach and an injured Hawks team with Woody. Having the MVP throws makeup over alot of that teams imperfections.

Del Negro is a rookie coach with a team that overachieved at the end of the season and came against an injured Boston team. Sure there were things he could have done better but I temper all criticism against him.

I don't blame Karl much either, the Lakers simply woke up in the WCF and he witnessed his saviour Chauncey dissapear yet again in a CFs. He looked like a man standing before a 50 foot tall tidal wave, not much you can do but admire your own impending destruction.

[khaos7]

I don't think we're to hard on Woody. To me (and this has been based off reports in National and local publications), any improvement the players have made has been outside of Woody and his staff. Josh learned his post moves from Hakeem. Marvin went back to UNC to work on his 3 point stroke. Joe was already coming into his own with the Suns. I'd argue that Al's work ethic has more to do with Florida than anything Woody has done. Diaw looks like a bust here. He goes off to Pheonix and to a lesser degree Charlotte and looks like a bonafied NBA player. So when it comes to player development, he has a failing grade.

Before somebody brings out our increasing win total during the time he was here, I'd argue, if you have a team of 1st rounders, you're naturally supposed to improve. Al was picked 3rd overall, Marvin 2nd overall, and Josh 17th. Additionally, their acquistions via trade (Joe and Bibby) were picked 10th and 2nd overall respectively). So, given the pedigree of there starters, it should be expected that they improve as they play along side each other for an extended period. Therefore, I give him minimum credit for our overall improvement

Offensively, we have NO MOVEMENT

What I will give him credit for his some of his defensive moves. Honestly, I don't believed we've been thrashed inside as much as people would have you believe. Bibby is as much to blame for PG's having big games on us as Woody. However, defensively, he's have some good game plans (defending Wade and Kobe when he played us at home).

That said, he's an assistant with any other team. I won't be foolish and say the guy doesn't know basketball. He played in the league and he was an assistant on a championship team. That said, he's not HC material. Nothing will make me sway my opinion on that.

[atlien]

My take on coaches is this:

You have some coaches who are really good and aren't as dependent on talent:

Phil Jackson, Popovich and McMillan come to mind.

You have some coaches who are really bad and will Eff it up in general:

Isaih Thomas, Del Negro (right now), etc. come to mind (there are more).

But, the vast majority, are slightly above average or slightly below average and are pretty much completely dependent on the talent placed around them:

Doc Rivers (the most-recent example), Mike Brown, Mike Woodson, etc. all fall into this category.

The NBA is a player's league. A coach usually is as good as his players.

That said, we can rightfully rip on Woody. After 4 years, he should have SOME sort of an offensive system. It's on the players and the GM too. But it's definitely a lot of him.

[NJHAWK]

I will say this, if we fire Woody right now and he takes off a year ( because there are no head coaching jobs) there is no doubt in my mind by opening day 2010 he has a head coaching job in the nba.