Hawks reportedly shopping Smoove

[Sothron]

Smith is a better scorer than Horford by a mile. Smith can actually create for himself. Horford has shown no ability to do this at all. Even with all of Smiths poor decisions and excessive jump shooting he still shot 49% from the field on the season.

Horford isn't a scorer, period. He gets to the line like the Eddie House of centers. He has no 1 on 1 game to speak off. He can be left wide open from 15 feet and not even look at the basket. He is a liability on offense much moreso than Smith even with Smiths obvious flaws.

You do watch the games still, right? Have you ever seen a more poorly run offense in the NBA? Horford is asked to do nothing but set a token screen and try to grab an offensive rebound. There's no way to honestly appraise any Hawks player (including Smoove) until we have an actual offense to see what they can do. Horford scored in the low and high post in college at a more than effective pace in Florida, I don't see how he could magically forget how to do so in the NBA unless he's not given a chance to do so. And we all know Woody is no goody.

[EazyRoc]

Smith is a better scorer than Horford by a mile. Smith can actually create for himself. Horford has shown no ability to do this at all. Even with all of Smiths poor decisions and excessive jump shooting he still shot 49% from the field on the season.

Horford isn't a scorer, period. He gets to the line like the Eddie House of centers. He has no 1 on 1 game to speak off. He can be left wide open from 15 feet and not even look at the basket. He is a liability on offense much moreso than Smith even with Smiths obvious flaws.

Josh Smith can't consistently create for himself. Quite frankly, his offensive skill is only slightly better than Horford's. He takes more attempts than Horford and only averaged a few more points than Horford (something people fail to mention). Horford isn't a scorer, but neither is Smith. 49% from the field is good, but even if he starts playing to his strengths and taking it to the basket, what will he do when he gets fouled ?

Quite frankly, Horford could produce offensively just as good as Smith if given the opportunity. He's the better shooter and he's just as effective as a finisher. I'd say the only edge Smith has offensively is his athleticism.

[exodus]

You do watch the games still, right? Have you ever seen a more poorly run offense in the NBA? Horford is asked to do nothing but set a token screen and try to grab an offensive rebound. There's no way to honestly appraise any Hawks player (including Smoove) until we have an actual offense to see what they can do. Horford scored in the low and high post in college at a more than effective pace in Florida, I don't see how he could magically forget how to do so in the NBA unless he's not given a chance to do so. And we all know Woody is no goody.

So you think it is in the game plan for Horford to not even look at the basket when he is wide open 15 feet from the rim? You think it is the game plan for him to try and back down players 20 or more pounds heavier than him instead of going around them?

Uh....ok

[MVP23]

Great! He will be a bum in 4,5 years when he can't dunk on people anymore...and STILL won't havea jump shot

[exodus]

Josh Smith can't consistently create for himself. Quite frankly, his offensive skill is only slightly better than Horford's. He takes more attempts than Horford and only averaged a few more points than Horford (something people fail to mention). Horford isn't a scorer, but neither is Smith.

:lol6:

Smith scored 36% more than Horford in spite of playing hurt for much of the season and having a career worst year from the foul line. Smiths scoring advantage over Horford is greater than Horfords rebounding advantage over Smith.

Smith post game is nothing special but it is better than Horfords easily. He can also beat guys off the dribble. Horford rarely beats anyone off the dribble no matter how slow and stiff they are.

Quite frankly, Horford could produce offensively just as good as Smith if given the opportunity.

He has had plenty of opportunities when Smith has been out hurt or is on the bench resting. He just hasn't produced.

Edited June 16, 2009 by exodus

[Sothron]

So you think it is in the game plan for Horford to not even look at the basket when he is wide open 15 feet from the rim? You think it is the game plan for him to try and back down players 20 or more pounds heavier than him instead of going around them?

Uh....ok

Actually, yes, go book and look at the tape. As my old coach said "tape don't lie". Horford would rarely get the ball and when he did he was immediately looking to pass it back out of almost always the high post. Its pretty obvious all he was asked to do on offense was try and drag a defender to the high post, pass out of it and set the token pick or screen. He has never in two years been asked (and should be asked) to set up in the low post and draw contact or at least be given the green light to face up and drive or use his 15-18 foot jump shot. He is one of the most poorly coached players in the NBA.

[Antmillennium]

Actually, yes, go book and look at the tape. As my old coach said "tape don't lie". Horford would rarely get the ball and when he did he was immediately looking to pass it back out of almost always the high post. Its pretty obvious all he was asked to do on offense was try and drag a defender to the high post, pass out of it and set the token pick or screen. He has never in two years been asked (and should be asked) to set up in the low post and draw contact or at least be given the green light to face up and drive or use his 15-18 foot jump shot. He is one of the most poorly coached players in the NBA.

Forget Horford. The Hawks are the most poorly coached team in the NBA. You act as if it's just Horford that is suffering from a bad coach. Everybody on the team is suffering from Woodson's ineptitude. If Horford would do better under better coaching, then so would Josh Smith.

[Sothron]

Forget Horford. The Hawks are the most poorly coached team in the NBA. You act as if it's just Horford that is suffering from a bad coach. Everybody on the team is suffering from Woodson's ineptitude. If Horford would do better under better coaching, then so would Josh Smith.

You'd have a point except I already posted in this thread you can't fairly judge any Hawks players including Smoove while Woody is still around.

[NJHAWK]

You'd have a point except I already posted in this thread you can't fairly judge any Hawks players including Smoove while Woody is still around.

I know Woody is a bone head. You always here him telling Smoove to play tough d and box out his man to get rebounds. You always here him saying stop settling for long jumpers and take the ball to the basket. You always here Woody saying your not the point guard stop trying to lead the break and throwing the ball into row 6. Who the F does Woody think he is saying that to Smoove.

[exodus]

Actually, yes, go book and look at the tape. As my old coach said "tape don't lie". Horford would rarely get the ball and when he did he was immediately looking to pass it back out of almost always the high post. Its pretty obvious all he was asked to do on offense was try and drag a defender to the high post, pass out of it and set the token pick or screen. He has never in two years been asked (and should be asked) to set up in the low post and draw contact or at least be given the green light to face up and drive or use his 15-18 foot jump shot. He is one of the most poorly coached players in the NBA.

There is no way that Horford is told to pass up wide open 15 footers. After all he is a better jump shooter than Smith and Smith takes 3s. You are saying that Woody is giving the green light to Smith to shoot 3s but he won't let Horford shoot 15 footers. That is nonsense.

If Horford has to be told to shoot when his man is 5 feet off him that is his problem. If he has to be told to try and beat a 7 foot stiff off the dribble again that is his problem. If he has to be told that it isn't a good idea to try and back down a guy 2 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier that is his problem. It has nothing to do with coaching.

That is stuff that you know in high school. You are just making excuses for him. Some things are just common sense, especially for a pro.

Edited June 17, 2009 by exodus

[Dsinner]

If the plan is to trade Smoove, the contract that Sund gave him nine months ago with the trade kicker makes him (Sund/Hawks) look very stupid.

^^^^ is exactly what went through my head when I read about that trade kicker. WTF puts a kicker like that in a contract and then tries to shop that player the next year. F'n morons, the lot of em.

[Admin]

^^^^ is exactly what went through my head when I read about that trade kicker. WTF puts a kicker like that in a contract and then tries to shop that player the next year. F'n morons, the lot of em.

Sund didn't give Smith his contract, Memphis did ...

[Dsinner]

Sund didn't give Smith his contract, Memphis did ...

Exactly. They could have signed him much earlier without the kicker. My point still stands.

[Admin]

Exactly. They could have signed him much earlier without the kicker. My point still stands.

You're making a huge assumption there and it's quite likely that we would have had to pay him more had we signed him since he thought he was worth more.

[Dsinner]

You're making a huge assumption there and it's quite likely that we would have had to pay him more had we signed him since he thought he was worth more.

No 6mil trade kicker a "huge" assumption? Ok.

The contract might have possibly been a little more but at least we wouldn't have our hand's tied if we wanted to trade him. I'm sorry but if the ASG really wanted him here they should have signed him earlier for a little more. Turns out they waited till last min to save a dollar and now it's biting them in the *ss.

Regardless my opinion of the ASG is the same regardless of this particular situation. It's easy to see this when my head isn't...

J/K BTW

[Kimsey]

Horford is nothing more than a 2000s version of Dale Davis down to the smallest subtleties. Even uses his left hand as a mechanical defense when going up. If you are fine with a Dale Davisesque power forward for the next 7-10 years, I suggest bringing in a Mark Jackson type to compliment him.

(would embed but I'm ignorant)

[Sothron]

There is no way that Horford is told to pass up wide open 15 footers. After all he is a better jump shooter than Smith and Smith takes 3s. You are saying that Woody is giving the green light to Smith to shoot 3s but he won't let Horford shoot 15 footers. That is nonsense.

If Horford has to be told to shoot when his man is 5 feet off him that is his problem. If he has to be told to try and beat a 7 foot stiff off the dribble again that is his problem. If he has to be told that it isn't a good idea to try and back down a guy 2 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier that is his problem. It has nothing to do with coaching.

That is stuff that you know in high school. You are just making excuses for him. Some things are just common sense, especially for a pro.

We don't really know what Woodson has told him to do. You watch the games. All Horford is asked to do is stand around in the high post on offense and set a token screen or pass the ball back out of the high post. Its fairly obvious he's never asked to do anything besides that.

[AHF]

There is no way that Horford is told to pass up wide open 15 footers. After all he is a better jump shooter than Smith and Smith takes 3s. You are saying that Woody is giving Smith permission to shoot 3s but he won't let Horford shoot 15 footers. That is nonsense.

I don't think Woody is green lighting Smith on the 3's but if you make the above change then I think this is actually very possible.

If Horford has to be told to shoot when his man is 5 feet off him that is his problem. If he has to be told to try and beat a 7 foot stiff off the dribble again that is his problem. If he has to be told that it isn't a good idea to try and back down a guy 2 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier that is his problem. It has nothing to do with coaching.

I don't entirely agree on this. I have serious doubts that Horford is breaking from the game plan given to him by the coaches. Now, I agree with you that he should be doing those things and I guess I would like to see him making smart decisions (beating 7 footers off the drive, not backing down larger players, etc.) even if it is contrary to what he is being told. So he bears responsibility, but I have very, very serious doubts that he is being told to do or not do these things and is blowing off the coaches. IMO, he has been given a very limited role offensively and has been told to primarily try to get points with his back to the basket since the rest of the team can play face up and only one person can occupy that space on the floor.

That is stuff that you know in high school. You are just making excuses for him. Some things are just common sense, especially for a pro.

The fact that our offense so often defies common sense leaves me really wondering what direction is being given to players but when I see consistent patterns in someone's play and no signs that the player is bucking the coaches (such as the play of Horford, Flip, Marvin, etc.) then I tend to believe that they are doing as they are directed. At least with Josh Smith you can see that Woodson gets frustrated by the perimeter shots (but still refuses to just move Smith closer to the basket on offense...and you know what they say about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result).

[Admin]

No 6mil trade kicker a "huge" assumption? Ok.

The contract might have possibly been a little more but at least we wouldn't have our hand's tied if we wanted to trade him. I'm sorry but if the ASG really wanted him here they should have signed him earlier for a little more. Turns out they waited till last min to save a dollar and now it's biting them in the *ss.

Regardless my opinion of the ASG is the same regardless of this particular situation. It's easy to see this when my head isn't...J/K BTW

The huge assumption you are making is that we could have signed him much earlier. And the only way it's biting them in the *ss is if you believe these rumors that we're trying to trade him and if you assume that we're having difficult moving him. I doubt that either is the case.

[chillzatl]

Josh Smith is the only tradable player of value that we have. It sucks for him (and you fans that see this is a slap in the face), but that's how it is. He offers the best ROI at this point.

The calls for trading Horford are simply absurd. A this point in his career, he is not tradable.