Hawks moves vs. Everybody else's.

[dlpin]

and just as I was typing this, this news came up:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-m...ns&expire=1

While it probably deserves its own thread, its an excellent example of what Im talking about.

So without cap space, dallas might land two of the top free agents, Gortat and Marion, without giving up anything.

1 year ago we all were sure that New Orleans was a hot team on the rise, and that dallas was old and done. A year later, and new orleans is rebuilding and dallas will have a top 3 team in the west. The difference between the two? ownership.

[MaceCase]

Im sorry, but are you really assuming that JJ's production could be easily replaced by a guy who has never played a playoff game in his career and the 19th pick in the draft?

As far as boston "losing" Allen, I think the least likely scenario is the one where he just walks away. Either he will resign at a discount, or he will be traded. As far as the Lafrentz and Wally Z scenarios, they were not moved by all accounts because of fear of chemistry issues, and other teams felt that their expiring contracts in a year with no reasonable free agents werent worth much. But for those two examples, you have several others of aging stars with expiring contracts being dealt for something of value. AI for Billups, etc. The fact remains that as long as the celtics have an ownership that is willing to spend money and a GM situation that can pick the right players to spend that money on, they should have plenty of ways of dealing with an aging core.

Again, Im not saying that Boston will be better. I am saying that ownership is a lot more important to how well a team does 2 or 3 years down the road than anything you can learn from players currently on the roster.

When did I say Crawford and Teague would replace JJs production? All I said is we have options and depth at that position whereas if Boston loses Allen they have no NBA talent capable of stepping up behind him or any means to acquire such. As far as trading expirings for value? That is not guranteed. Wally is a deep bench player and Lafrentz didnt even play a game, do you not think the Cavs and Blazers were'nt trying to move both contracts to get a player(s) that could push them over the top? I don't see how you could argue chemistry for being the reason for those guys amongst others not being traded.

The Billups-AI deal was far more complicated than you make it out to be. Denver was facing luxury tax which they did not want to pay for a team that gets knocked out in the first round and Detroit were tired of being knocked out in the ECFs by more dynamic scorers and had a PG they were very high on in Stuckey that would not get much PT behind Billups who is signed longterm. It was not just a classic salary dump. There weren't much in terms of exprings being traded beyond that and how laughable it is that now the Boston ownership and Danny frickin Ainge are geniuses. Wow, the only thing saving Ainge from being worst GM in the NBA over the past decade were BK and Kevin McHale who happened to gift him with Garnett. Like I said don't give me no BS about how great a team Boston is after their one championship run. They were banking on riding KG last year and when he went down they made such notable moves as getting Marbury and Mikki Moore to push them over the top. So please if you are going to use the ownership argument you had better come with better than Boston, two current playoff runs on a visibly declining team is not something to rave about. Orlando on the otherhand if they were so willing to pay what it takes they would have kept both Hedo and Gortat and been the main championship threats next year. Our ownership has proven that they'd spend over the last year and there's zero indication that they won't continue that trend this year either. We have a barely opened window that we can say for fact will be open past next year, these other popup teams don't have that luxury thus why they are spending as if this is the last year the NBA will be in existence and there are still many questions facing them.

[Plastic Man]

the moves we made so far smell like mediocrity to me. some things we'll need to get to 2nd round again:

--healthy squad (duh)

--crawford to play enough to allow rest for bibby and jj

--marvin re-signed and a chip on his shoulder

--smoove sticking to his strengths

--horford more aggressive/bigger arsenal in the paint

--RUN WOODY RUN

i was actually hoping we didn't re-sign zaza (even though i like his game). we need more of a post presence on both ends off the bench and i think zaza is limited considering the money he will make.

[LordOfNYork]

and just as I was typing this, this news came up:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-m...ns&expire=1

While it probably deserves its own thread, its an excellent example of what Im talking about.

So without cap space, dallas might land two of the top free agents, Gortat and Marion, without giving up anything.

1 year ago we all were sure that New Orleans was a hot team on the rise, and that dallas was old and done. A year later, and new orleans is rebuilding and dallas will have a top 3 team in the west. The difference between the two? ownership.

Excellent point!! A team on the rise doesn't secure my trust at all. Well run organizations, great ownership wins out...I feel sorry the Hawks are under same ownership as their hockey team. It seems they only get treated a knotch better

[AHF]

I don't view bringing back guys like Bibby and Zaza at good prices as treading water. That is a victory. If you lose them you have to go and replace them and who is out there that is so attractive? Frankly, I don't think there were many pieces who would go to the Hawks who would have been significant upgrades. I am happy with the way this offseason has been going so far -- plenty still left to go before it is done, though.

[midtownhawk]

I think that the big think as chilz pointed out is that none of those big name FA are coming to atlanta...we are a young team on the rise but with our ownership no big name in their prime is going to come here and no vet is going to come here when there are opportunities with teams that are much closer...if we get to the finals in the east then one of those vets might consider coming here and taking a run at things but right now we have more needs than one guy in the twilight of his career can offer.

[dlpin]

When did I say Crawford and Teague would replace JJs production? All I said is we have options and depth at that position whereas if Boston loses Allen they have no NBA talent capable of stepping up behind him or any means to acquire such. As far as trading expirings for value? That is not guranteed. Wally is a deep bench player and Lafrentz didnt even play a game, do you not think the Cavs and Blazers were'nt trying to move both contracts to get a player(s) that could push them over the top? I don't see how you could argue chemistry for being the reason for those guys amongst others not being traded.

The Billups-AI deal was far more complicated than you make it out to be. Denver was facing luxury tax which they did not want to pay for a team that gets knocked out in the first round and Detroit were tired of being knocked out in the ECFs by more dynamic scorers and had a PG they were very high on in Stuckey that would not get much PT behind Billups who is signed longterm. It was not just a classic salary dump. There weren't much in terms of exprings being traded beyond that and how laughable it is that now the Boston ownership and Danny frickin Ainge are geniuses. Wow, the only thing saving Ainge from being worst GM in the NBA over the past decade were BK and Kevin McHale who happened to gift him with Garnett. Like I said don't give me no BS about how great a team Boston is after their one championship run. They were banking on riding KG last year and when he went down they made such notable moves as getting Marbury and Mikki Moore to push them over the top. So please if you are going to use the ownership argument you had better come with better than Boston, two current playoff runs on a visibly declining team is not something to rave about. Orlando on the otherhand if they were so willing to pay what it takes they would have kept both Hedo and Gortat and been the main championship threats next year. Our ownership has proven that they'd spend over the last year and there's zero indication that they won't continue that trend this year either. We have a barely opened window that we can say for fact will be open past next year, these other popup teams don't have that luxury thus why they are spending as if this is the last year the NBA will be in existence and there are still many questions facing them.

Im sorry, but what is your point exactly?

Boston has no means of acquiring someone to replace Allen? They can: 1- resign Allen, 2- trade Allen, 3- sign someone willing to go there for the MLE. In any case, JJ is a lot more important to the Hawks than Allen to the Celtics.

The main rationale for trading Billups WAS salary implications. And you can find any number of deals in the same way: the Gasol deal, the JJ deal, the Shaq deal, etc.

As far as Ainge the GM? Hmm, he drafted Al Jefferson at 15, Big Baby at 30, Perkins at 27, Rondo at 21, Ryan Gomes at 55, Powe in the later rounds, etc. And I don't cal giving up Jefferson, Gomes, and 2 1st round picks including a lottery one, being given anything.

And while the current hawks ownership seems willing to spend reasonably, the court case is still pending, and even then the current ownership is still unwilling to spend into the luxury tax.

Fact is, no one can predict how teams will be 2 or 3 years down the road. And the fact is, ownership means a lot more about how good a team will be down the road than current roster does.

[MaceCase]

Im sorry, but what is your point exactly?

Boston has no means of acquiring someone to replace Allen? They can: 1- resign Allen, 2- trade Allen, 3- sign someone willing to go there for the MLE. In any case, JJ is a lot more important to the Hawks than Allen to the Celtics.

The main rationale for trading Billups WAS salary implications. And you can find any number of deals in the same way: the Gasol deal, the JJ deal, the Shaq deal, etc.

As far as Ainge the GM? Hmm, he drafted Al Jefferson at 15, Big Baby at 30, Perkins at 27, Rondo at 21, Ryan Gomes at 55, Powe in the later rounds, etc. And I don't cal giving up Jefferson, Gomes, and 2 1st round picks including a lottery one, being given anything.

And while the current hawks ownership seems willing to spend reasonably, the court case is still pending, and even then the current ownership is still unwilling to spend into the luxury tax.

Fact is, no one can predict how teams will be 2 or 3 years down the road. And the fact is, ownership means a lot more about how good a team will be down the road than current roster does.

My point being that you are giving too much credit too Boston, Orlando and Cleveland, the 3 teams ahead of us. Nobody 3 years ago wanted to go to Boston. KG even turned down being traded there until Allen got there and as they get older and dust off that team is not going to get any better or any more attractive. The KG/Allen trade saved Ainge's job as even Pierce wanted out before that because despite Ainge's draft picks does Mark Blount, Ricky Davis, Wally Z, Michael Olowokandi get you horny? So drop the ownership nonsense, they were floundering before they got lucky so you can't assume lightning will strike twice there.

Cleveland's hopes and aspirations lay on one player's shoulders and he's playing mind games with that organization to the point where the likes of Trevor Ariza don't want to be bogged down in that city by themselves if the "king" moves off to greener pastures.

Orlando has two young studs in Dwight and Jameer but have handcuffed that roster with two 30 year olds making lucrative long term salaries. Both will still be young when Shard and Carter end but considering you usually have to overpay to get anyone there and that is not a particularly wealthy ownership in a small market........ they betta hope they draft good if they want to get decent talent for the future.

We have shown an upward trend considering the steps we've taken each year and can more easily assume this trend will continue, with parts being added, while these other teams have peaked and are fighting a sliding scale to maintain their success. Mark Cuban is one of the best owners if not the most player friendly amongst all the owners. Holding Orlando's, Cleveland's, or Boston's owners in the same sentence as him is pure delusion. Like I said there have been 3 championship dynasties over the past decade in LA, San Antonio and Detroit. You can add Dallas there as they have been consistent playoff contenders yet it seems you are not arguing us being worried about them but instead these other teams experiencing recent success similar to us.

Edited July 8, 2009 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[dlpin]

You do realize that the current ownership bought the celtics in 2002, right? They then made the playoffs without a real shot for a couple of years, blew it up and decided to rebuild for 2 years, and then traded the pieces for the current team. You know that without the ownership giving the green light there is no trade, right? Same for cleveland and its trades, or the lakers, or dallas.

Which teams did the mle players consider?

My point is very simple: every season we have teams being labeled the next great team based on player potential. And the point is that without a good ownership all these teams have failed to become a great team, while "old teams" were able to easily retool based on an ownership willing to spend.

Just look back: New Orleans, golden state, the clippers, memphis, minnesota, they were all teams that were considered to be on the upswing, filled with potential, that never went anywhere because of ownership.

Meanwhile, Dallas, Lakers and Boston were all teams deemed to be old, or far from a contender, who became good again because ownership was willing to spend to be good again.

And all of this without saying that you are ignoring the fact that some of these other teams have good young players too, and the hawks also have aging players....

[MaceCase]

We have improved from within and when we had to, went out and made big trades to get talent in Bibby and now Crawford. Ownership approved these deals and these guy aint cheap. We have enough developing young talent and if we need a player to push us over the top, have ownership made any indication that we would not try to get the deal done? We have enough young developing chips that if we traded them off for a star we'd still have part of our young core intact, most other teams can't boast having that ability. We already hear rumors of Boston packaging Allen with Rondo to get teams to bite, Orlando already traded off Lee and only have Jameer and Howard left as young chips. Cleveland can only get by trading old expirings for old expirings. I'd say we are in a pretty good situation considering we have an improving core and enough chips to get a deal done without completely dismantling our team. To keep saying these teams have marked advantages over us because they can get talent to sign with them this summer that is no better than our current cast while we are busy working to retain our current cast is just severely short changing us. If I see us having a max deal to throw at Lebron and he decides to go sign in LA for the MLE then I'll go along with you on all this doom and gloom. Or if I hear us having a chance to get Amar'e for Horf and Solo and ownership kills the deal, but so far we seem willing to wheel and deal without shooting our load prematurely.

[Hatertots]

In absolute terms (ie not relative to the competition), the Hawks' offseason moves look lateral to me. The same faces are coming back and we replace Flip with Crawford, our new bench chucker de jour, and next year's team will probably look a lot like the product we've seen on the floor the past two years. A probable playoff team but definitely not a contender without a youngster becoming a superstar (something I think is unlikely).

Relative to the East, Cleveland may have improved with the Shaq trade, Boston's fortunes will rise and fall with the health and play of KG, PP, Allen and Rondo, and Orlando's addition of Vince increases the gap between the Eastern elite and the 4-8 seeds. Getting Miller and a (hope)fully healed Agent Zero means the Wizards are taking someone's playoff ticket (I'm looking at you, Detroit).

When I look over this free agent class, however, I think the Hawks missed out on some very nice pieces, namely Ramon Sessions, Trevor Ariza, Marcin Gortat, and David Lee. I'm not saying it was realistic for us to acquire all, if any, of these players (especially in the case of Lee), but all four were (are) available and you can make the case that each one would've been an upgrade over the incumbent Hawk, especially if you're a fan of D. Berri's work in sports economy, which rates Sessions as significantly more productive than Bibby, Ariza and Gortat as about twice as productive as Williams and Zaza, and Lee as roughly three times more productive than Smoove.

Personally, I would've loved seeing the Hawks (any team really, but especially the team I root for) trot out a lineup of Wins Produced All-Stars like Sessions/ Johnson/ Ariza/ Lee/ Horford with a producer like Gortat eating up 20-25 minutes backing up the 4 and 5. Of course, if it failed, Sund would be out of a job in a hurry while success doesn't always ensure security, so I don't blame him for playing it safe.

[dlpin]

We have improved from within and when we had to, went out and made big trades to get talent in Bibby and now Crawford. Ownership approved these deals and these guy aint cheap. We have enough developing young talent and if we need a player to push us over the top, have ownership made any indication that we would not try to get the deal done? We have enough young developing chips that if we traded them off for a star we'd still have part of our young core intact, most other teams can't boast having that ability. We already hear rumors of Boston packaging Allen with Rondo to get teams to bite, Orlando already traded off Lee and only have Jameer and Howard left as young chips. Cleveland can only get by trading old expirings for old expirings. I'd say we are in a pretty good situation considering we have an improving core and enough chips to get a deal done without completely dismantling our team. To keep saying these teams have marked advantages over us because they can get talent to sign with them this summer that is no better than our current cast while we are busy working to retain our current cast is just severely short changing us. If I see us having a max deal to throw at Lebron and he decides to go sign in LA for the MLE then I'll go along with you on all this doom and gloom. Or if I hear us having a chance to get Amar'e for Horf and Solo and ownership kills the deal, but so far we seem willing to wheel and deal without shooting our load prematurely.

Im sorry, but you seem to be forgetting recent hawks history.

Isn't there a lawsuit going about the ownership? Where one of the parties actually tried to block the JJ trade not too long ago?

And even with the current ownership, assuming they win the lawsuit: they were not mentioned in a single discussion about potential mle signings and might not even use it this year. Isn't there thread over thread here in this very own forum about the ownership interfering with basketball decisions?

My poin is that "potential" right now doesnt mean anything when you are looking 2 years out. A single trade (Gasol, for example) can dramatically alter things, and I think that saying "but the hawks are younger" is little consolation when the ownership has the potential to be very messy.

[MaceCase]

Im sorry, but you seem to be forgetting recent hawks history.

Isn't there a lawsuit going about the ownership? Where one of the parties actually tried to block the JJ trade not too long ago?

And even with the current ownership, assuming they win the lawsuit: they were not mentioned in a single discussion about potential mle signings and might not even use it this year. Isn't there thread over thread here in this very own forum about the ownership interfering with basketball decisions?

My poin is that "potential" right now doesnt mean anything when you are looking 2 years out. A single trade (Gasol, for example) can dramatically alter things, and I think that saying "but the hawks are younger" is little consolation when the ownership has the potential to be very messy.

Yea recent history, some people here are just too jaded by the past that you refuse to look at the current deals as being any progress. We paid over 14 mill to Bibby the last two years with a trade kicker to boot and now have gone ahead and resigned him to a multiyear deal. We picked up Crawford too at an average of 10mil for the next two years. Somebody has to be cutting these guys checks despite the legal battle. You can't use the MLE as an argument either considering that we have 4 key free agents that we are negotiating with and only after their deals get done could we even qualify to use the MLE. Add that the signing period just started a day ago and you are making a few assumptions as to what we are doing in FAcy. My point is that we have obviously grown through our youth and have yet to stall out to warrant a drastic makeover. If we do stall or regress guess what, we have more than enough valuable pieces that we can turn into veteran help. Either way based on current estimates we are less likely to have to blow up our team and start over 2-3 years down the line than other teams we seem to be worrying about.

[Diesel]

How about some reasonable expectations?

Should a top 5 youngest team in the league seriously be expected to compete for a ring? Seriously teams that young just don't win championships.

2-3 years from now again when teams like Boston, San Antonio, and possibly Cleveland get old, that will be our window. Im still laughing at those who think re-upping with young talent is as easy in the NBA as it is in college basketball/football.

Why do you think there is such an arms race right now? Some teams are doing it for financial reasons, but others are doing it because they know their championship window isn't going to be open that much longer. You just don't snap your finger and replace Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, and Rasheed Wallace. You don't just snap your finger and replace Tim Duncan, or even Shaq and Big Z.

This isn't football/basketball recruiting where you easily sign half a dozen more guys that are the best in the nation. The teams that get the best guys like that are picking in the lottery.

We have to be patient and how that this team that is oozing with talent can progress and again it will be perfect timing 2-3 years from now if our guys start to peak while the contending teams are rebuilding. This team has improved every year since they blew the team up, yet the pessimism does not seem to cease. That's ATlanta for you I guess

Dude it's very naive to think that Cleveland, Boston, and whoever else you feel is "old" just won't reload. That's what championship teams do. Championship teams reload and are seldom out having a "rebuilding" year. IN the case of a team like Boston, they lose Ray Allen and more than likely, they get some cap space or they pick up a great rook or they develop a good draft pick. I don't expect Boston to eventually become Minnesota. Nor do I expect Cleveland to become Memphis. So this talk of waiting our turn is the talk of a somebody who hasn't watched how the game is played at the championship level. Right now, we are at the point where we should be challenging for the title. We were one of the 8 best teams playing. After 2 years of playoffs, we have to move on up.

[Diesel]

I don't view bringing back guys like Bibby and Zaza at good prices as treading water. That is a victory. If you lose them you have to go and replace them and who is out there that is so attractive? Frankly, I don't think there were many pieces who would go to the Hawks who would have been significant upgrades. I am happy with the way this offseason has been going so far -- plenty still left to go before it is done, though.

It's treading water.

Forget about salary. Forget about price. Just look at the team for a minute.

Which need did we fill?

What new skillset have we brought in that will help us be better?

I'm glad that we have created an atmosphere where guys want to stay.

I'm glad that Sund can negotiate very good deals with our players.

However, what's the difference between last years' team and this years?

[thecampster]

It's treading water.

Forget about salary. Forget about price. Just look at the team for a minute.

Which need did we fill?

What new skillset have we brought in that will help us be better?

I'm glad that we have created an atmosphere where guys want to stay.

I'm glad that Sund can negotiate very good deals with our players.

However, what's the difference between last years' team and this years?

Don't underestimate the value of a good butt kicking. That 4 game loss to the Cavs hurt. It hurt JJ's pride on his bad wheel unable to play up to his norm. It hurt Josh's pride as some of the things we talk about here got exposed. It definately hurt Horford's pride. It most definately got under Bibby's skin. It had to hurt Woodson's pride.

We are better due to one thing. Consistency. There was no shake up in the roster requiring new chemistry. Everyone will be back healthy to start a new season. This in itself is big. No Clankston at the end of the bench collecting a check.

We are better due to an excuse of Woody's heading out the door. Woody sold himself out on Teague and Crawford. He's vested in them. They aren't another coach or GM's guys. Woody has to put up or shut up with the talent he has and that in itself is a win for the team.

[LordOfNYork]

Dude it's very naive to think that Cleveland, Boston, and whoever else you feel is "old" just won't reload. That's what championship teams do. Championship teams reload and are seldom out having a "rebuilding" year. IN the case of a team like Boston, they lose Ray Allen and more than likely, they get some cap space or they pick up a great rook or they develop a good draft pick. I don't expect Boston to eventually become Minnesota. Nor do I expect Cleveland to become Memphis. So this talk of waiting our turn is the talk of a somebody who hasn't watched how the game is played at the championship level. Right now, we are at the point where we should be challenging for the title. We were one of the 8 best teams playing. After 2 years of playoffs, we have to move on up.

Nah dude they're right...2-3 from now being that the Hawks are the smartest and best run organization and the model to follow every other successful ownership and GM will dumb out and have no clue how to run their squad when the hawks window finally opens. I'm just wondering how many excuses backs this team. The Hawks being the 5th youngest team and a lot of ppl on this forum going by avg age of teams etc. and it's funny that the Lakers are pretty much almost even with the Hawks as far as age. Hawks players have experience with back to back playoff appearances, especially going into this season so no more excuse man. 2-3 years from the now they will be aging. Joe will be 30 and Bibby, wow will he even be able to move on defense?

[dlpin]

Yea recent history, some people here are just too jaded by the past that you refuse to look at the current deals as being any progress. We paid over 14 mill to Bibby the last two years with a trade kicker to boot and now have gone ahead and resigned him to a multiyear deal. We picked up Crawford too at an average of 10mil for the next two years. Somebody has to be cutting these guys checks despite the legal battle. You can't use the MLE as an argument either considering that we have 4 key free agents that we are negotiating with and only after their deals get done could we even qualify to use the MLE. Add that the signing period just started a day ago and you are making a few assumptions as to what we are doing in FAcy. My point is that we have obviously grown through our youth and have yet to stall out to warrant a drastic makeover. If we do stall or regress guess what, we have more than enough valuable pieces that we can turn into veteran help. Either way based on current estimates we are less likely to have to blow up our team and start over 2-3 years down the line than other teams we seem to be worrying about.

Im sorry, but then are you saying that NOT taking a step back is in fact a step forward? Resigning two free agents (who no one else really showed an interest in), one of them at a deep discount, and trading for a veteran SG are not really signs that ownership is willing to do what it needs to build a championship. Other teams also had plenty of players to resign, and still were aggressive in free agency. Were the hawks ever in contention for a player like Gortat?

There is no "line" in the NBA. Saying "we can't compete now, but 3 years from now we will be better" really doesn't happen that way. Especially with the latest CBA, that restricts contracts a lot. This is not the 90s, where people would get 10 year deals and teams would be stuck forever with bad contracts. It is very easy to acquire talent and to get rid of bad contracts, especially with so many bad owners out there.

[Sothron]

How about some reasonable expectations?

Should a top 5 youngest team in the league seriously be expected to compete for a ring? Seriously teams that young just don't win championships.

2-3 years from now again when teams like Boston, San Antonio, and possibly Cleveland get old, that will be our window. Im still laughing at those who think re-upping with young talent is as easy in the NBA as it is in college basketball/football.

Why do you think there is such an arms race right now? Some teams are doing it for financial reasons, but others are doing it because they know their championship window isn't going to be open that much longer. You just don't snap your finger and replace Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, and Rasheed Wallace. You don't just snap your finger and replace Tim Duncan, or even Shaq and Big Z.

This isn't football/basketball recruiting where you easily sign half a dozen more guys that are the best in the nation. The teams that get the best guys like that are picking in the lottery.

We have to be patient and how that this team that is oozing with talent can progress and again it will be perfect timing 2-3 years from now if our guys start to peak while the contending teams are rebuilding. This team has improved every year since they blew the team up, yet the pessimism does not seem to cease. That's ATlanta for you I guess

Two to three years from now JJ will be in decline, Bibby will be what 36 years old and unless we make some changes we would not have a real star player to replace them. Those are the problems young teams with one or two older veteran teams always have in basketball: by the time the youth hit their prime the veterans are on the decline and unless some of the young guys truly blossom into stars themselves (none of the Hawks players are capable of doing that I believe) then you are just in the same boat three years in the future as you were three years in the past.

[buckeye242424]

Two to three years from now JJ will be in decline, Bibby will be what 36 years old and unless we make some changes we would not have a real star player to replace them. Those are the problems young teams with one or two older veteran teams always have in basketball: by the time the youth hit their prime the veterans are on the decline and unless some of the young guys truly blossom into stars themselves (none of the Hawks players are capable of doing that I believe) then you are just in the same boat three years in the future as you were three years in the past.

I don't believe that in two years JJ will be chopped liver. In two years, Mike Bibby will be 33, a far cry from 36. Anyhow, I don't think you have much faith in the youth of the team. I'm not sure what the definition of a "real star" player is, but I do think we have guys that have the potential to be darn good players in the NBA. I don't need to list all of our young guys...it's given. But there's definetely talent and loads of potential. Not to mention what we could acquire in the draft between now and three years from, inclusing this year's draft.