Is Woody the Hawks' version of Doug Collins?

[hawks21]

There are many factors into why Rick Sund has not renewed Woodson's contract. However, I believe Sund wants to see how Woody develops young players especially with the prospect of Mike Bibby getting a year older and JJ not being here next year.

Byron Scott is waiting in the weeds and if Coach Woodson fails to develop the young players and duplicate the flameout against the Eastern Conference, he will be gone.

Doug Collins had some success in the 1980's, but Phil Jackson was able to push the Bulls to a higher level and get the most out of his players..ALL OF HIS PLAYERS...

Woodson was a former guard, and has had a terrible time developing guards as a coach. If it were able about the wins and just making the playoffs, Woody would have been re-signed during the offseason.

Jeff Teague has to show progress under Woodson THIS YEAR. Fair or not, I believe this is one of the silent directives from GM Sund. Woody can coach however he wants to coach and limit Teague's minutes or treat him like Acie, but Woody won't get a chance to ship away another first-round draft choice (i.e. Acie, Shelden, Diaw, etc.)

Playoffs is a priority, but being able to develop young players is PART OF THE GRADE... Woody gets a proverbial red mark thus far. The Hornets got inspired play from LSU's Marcus Thornton and UCLA's Darren Collison who are ROOKIES.

Woody won't be allowed to hide behind the veterans, as Mike Glenn said in his postgame comments, the Teague situation "will be re-visited". The Hawks drafted Jeff and he may some weakness, but he has some strengths as well. Drafting first round picks is a risk, but Woody isn't playing it safe by finding ways to keep him on the bench.

[MVP23]

......I agree with everything you just said 94%..the only difference is I think Woody needs to be fired now..

[GameTime]

Agreed, but no to Byron.

[hawks21]

Agreed, but no to Byron.

Byron Scott might not be the perfect option, but his coaching resume and resume as a championship player (with the Lakers) far exceeds Woodson...

Scott's success with the Nets is undeniable, and he helped turn the Hornets around and helped develop Chris Paul.

[Buzzard]

Byron Scott might not be the perfect option, but his coaching resume and resume as a championship player (with the Lakers) far exceeds Woodson...

Scott's success with the Nets is undeniable, and he helped turn the Hornets around and helped develop Chris Paul.

Two great points but the one thing that worries me (actually two); Is how well the Hornets are playing right now minus their best player and Scott.

[DarnShadyRefs]

Nice thread but I wouldn't hire scott. Everyone keeps using the excuse...but but Teague is buried on the bench behind Bibby and crawford on a good team.....but but Teague hasn't done anything to earn minutes.........but but Teague this Teague that. Sacramento's rookies gave us all we could handle. Ty Lawson didn't make much noise in preseason and was not looking too hot. He is buried behind Chauncey and a seasoned vet in Carter, Well after a slow start and a steady diet of consistent minutes, now he is a solid contribution off the bench. Karl isn't asking him to do too much but use his quickness and athleticism to beat people to the basket.

The down side to firing Woody is it might affect JJ re-signing with us since he likes Woody and its his contract year. I prefer Mike Fratello over any of the other coaches out there. He could really help Marvin, Horf and Josh become complete players under a system. I would like to see how Sund is going to play this out. He can't keep stocking the roster with veterans without developing our own. It's too expensive.

I think Woody has done a great job personally. I think he is the coach the hawks needed to get from point A to B. Unfortunately, I don't think he can help us get to point C. He has plateaued

[volman]

The Hornets have been playing over their heads. The three ball saved them tonight. 71%??? Wow.

[Plainview1981]

The Hornets have been playing over their heads. The three ball saved them tonight. 71%??? Wow.

They were wide open all night. Yeah, I know... These millionaire athletes played a game last night and had to fly on a nice plane which further helped to tucker them out.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Hotlanta1981

[TheNorthCydeRises]

You gotta love this board.

The fact is that Woody gets no credit in the development of the players we have currently. So what makes any of you think he'll get credit for the development of Teague?

Very few people give Woody credit for the development of JJ, by instilling a supersar mindset in him and giving him superstar responsibilities. It was very few people that thought he'd be effective as the #1 option on a team. But under Woody, he not only is the Hawks scoring leader, he's one of the assist leaders as well.

Does he get credit for the development of Josh Smith? Of course not. But it was Woody that put him at the 4 once Harrington left ( even though you had people swearing up and down that he should play SF ). It was Woody who put the ball in his hands in the high post, and encouraged him to start taking people off the dribble to get his points. And while he could've severely limited what Smoove did as a player, he let him play free, which kept his mind in the game on most nights.

So if Teague did start to play well, Woody wouldn't get any credit anyway. He never gets credit for anything positive concerning the Hawks.

[pimp]

Scott??

Remember what happened in New Jersey?

Jason Kidd and the Nets players pretty much said that

all Scott did was make substitutions while his assistant coach

Lawrence Frank was the real coach of the team.

[DjGrizz]

There is no doubt in my mind if Doug Collins stayed, he would have won a championship with that team. Phil is overrated. He's a good coach but he is still overrated.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Nice thread but I wouldn't hire scott. Everyone keeps using the excuse...but but Teague is buried on the bench behind Bibby and crawford on a good team.....but but Teague hasn't done anything to earn minutes.........but but Teague this Teague that. Sacramento's rookies gave us all we could handle. Ty Lawson didn't make much noise in preseason and was not looking too hot. He is buried behind Chauncey and a seasoned vet in Carter, Well after a slow start and a steady diet of consistent minutes, now he is a solid contribution off the bench. Karl isn't asking him to do too much but use his quickness and athleticism to beat people to the basket.

The down side to firing Woody is it might affect JJ re-signing with us since he likes Woody and its his contract year. I prefer Mike Fratello over any of the other coaches out there. He could really help Marvin, Horf and Josh become complete players under a system. I would like to see how Sund is going to play this out. He can't keep stocking the roster with veterans without developing our own. It's too expensive.

I think Woody has done a great job personally. I think he is the coach the hawks needed to get from point A to B. Unfortunately, I don't think he can help us get to point C. He has plateaued

Some of you better look around the league, and see what "winning teams" actually do to keep themselves winners.

- Lakers:

What young player has developed under Phil Jackson. Farmar? . Nope. Walton? . . nope. Adam Morrison? . . nope. Only Bynum has developed under Phil . . and that took 4 years. The core of the Lakers are made up of veteran players who all have experience in being "the man" on a team ( Bryant, Odom, Gasol, Artest )

- Celtics:

What young player has developed under Doc Rivers? Rondo? . . definitely, but only after the talent around him was greatly upgraded. House? . . no, he's the same one-dimensional player. Gearld Green? . . .lol, I think he's out the league now. Al Jefferson? . . definitely, but they traded him for the all around skills and team leadership of KG. Big Baby? . . yes. But like the Lakers, the core of the Celtics are made up of players who have experience in being "the man" on a team. ( Pierce, Garnett, Allen, Rasheed Wallace )

- Cavaliers:

What young player has devloped under Mike Brown? Varejao? . . nope, he's the same player. Daniel Gibson? . . he had that one good year, and has regressed. Delonte West? . . I'll say slightly yes. Mo Williams? . . I'll say yes. The Cavs do have the luxury of having the most versatile player in the league, who is arguably the best in the league.

- Magic:

What young players has Stan Van Gundy developed? JJ Redick? . . it took 3.5 years of JJ being totally useless, but yes. Nelson? . . . definitely. Courtney Lee? . . yes, but they traded him for a major upgrade in Vince Carter. So I guess Stan is the man, when it comes to developing young players, even though they have three high priced players on the squad ( Carter, Lewis, Howard )

The fact is that when you're a winning team, you're usually going to be filled with veteran players, and more than likely, you're not going to have a small payroll. Championships cost money, most of the time.

And it's contradictory to say that Woody is doing a great job, but has plateaued . . .at 11 - 3 . . which is our best start in 13 years. So far, a Hawk team under Woody hasn't failed to improve on the season before. And this season looks to be no different. But he's plateued? How? In what way?

Not you personally, but I think some people are afraid that this team may do really well under Woody, forcing Sund to re-sign him. Barring an NBA title, they'll always find a reason to dislike him, and wanting him gone.

It's amazing to see the coaches being tossed around to replace Woody.

- Byron Scott: I think he's a decent coach. But it doesn't look good for him when he can't win with Chris Paul playing out of his mind . . but the Hornets GM comes down, and coaches a Paul-less team to 2 wins over the best team in the East and the West ( Phoenix )

- Mike Fratello: I have nothing against Mike, but it's not like he's one of the top minds in the NBA. Quick . . has Mike ever coached a team to a conference final? Some of you touting Fratello may want to look that up.

- Avery Johnson: Definitely a good coach in my opinion. But don't forget, he was the coach of the Mavs . . the #1 seeded Mavs back in 07 . . when they got embarassed by the #8 seed Golden St. Warriors in the 1st round of the playoffs. That's part of the reason why he doesn't have a job now. That, and the fact that he probably wants a ton of money to coach again.

[sillent]

Some of you better look around the league, and see what "winning teams" actually do to keep themselves winners.

- Lakers:

What young player has developed under Phil Jackson. Farmar? . Nope. Walton? . . nope. Adam Morrison? . . nope. Only Bynum has developed under Phil . . and that took 4 years. The core of the Lakers are made up of veteran players who all have experience in being "the man" on a team ( Bryant, Odom, Gasol, Artest )

- Celtics:

What young player has developed under Doc Rivers? Rondo? . . definitely, but only after the talent around him was greatly upgraded. House? . . no, he's the same one-dimensional player. Gearld Green? . . .lol, I think he's out the league now. Al Jefferson? . . definitely, but they traded him for the all around skills and team leadership of KG. Big Baby? . . yes. But like the Lakers, the core of the Celtics are made up of players who have experience in being "the man" on a team. ( Pierce, Garnett, Allen, Rasheed Wallace )

- Cavaliers:

What young player has devloped under Mike Brown? Varejao? . . nope, he's the same player. Daniel Gibson? . . he had that one good year, and has regressed. Delonte West? . . I'll say slightly yes. Mo Williams? . . I'll say yes. The Cavs do have the luxury of having the most versatile player in the league, who is arguably the best in the league.

- Magic:

What young players has Stan Van Gundy developed? JJ Redick? . . it took 3.5 years of JJ being totally useless, but yes. Nelson? . . . definitely. Courtney Lee? . . yes, but they traded him for a major upgrade in Vince Carter. So I guess Stan is the man, when it comes to developing young players, even though they have three high priced players on the squad ( Carter, Lewis, Howard )

The fact is that when you're a winning team, you're usually going to be filled with veteran players, and more than likely, you're not going to have a small payroll. Championships cost money, most of the time.

And it's contradictory to say that Woody is doing a great job, but has plateaued . . .at 11 - 3 . . which is our best start in 13 years. So far, a Hawk team under Woody hasn't failed to improve on the season before. And this season looks to be no different. But he's plateued? How? In what way?

Not you personally, but I think some people are afraid that this team may do really well under Woody, forcing Sund to re-sign him. Barring an NBA title, they'll always find a reason to dislike him, and wanting him gone.

It's amazing to see the coaches being tossed around to replace Woody.

- Byron Scott: I think he's a decent coach. But it doesn't look good for him when he can't win with Chris Paul playing out of his mind . . but the Hornets GM comes down, and coaches a Paul-less team to 2 wins over the best team in the East and the West ( Phoenix )

- Mike Fratello: I have nothing against Mike, but it's not like he's one of the top minds in the NBA. Quick . . has Mike ever coached a team to a conference final? Some of you touting Fratello may want to look that up.

- Avery Johnson: Definitely a good coach in my opinion. But don't forget, he was the coach of the Mavs . . the #1 seeded Mavs back in 07 . . when they got embarassed by the #8 seed Golden St. Warriors in the 1st round of the playoffs. That's part of the reason why he doesn't have a job now. That, and the fact that he probably wants a ton of money to coach again.

Ladies and Gentleman we have a thinker!! :thumbsupsmileyanim: !! To fire a coach that has grew with the team(chemistry) and is 11- 3 is more fit for a fantasy league than real life. Yeah Woody has his faults but he is an evil genius. Our record and play is not a fluke and even though I agree with Billy Knight in the fact that he should get more out of the talent given I do agree with Woody's lesson's he tries to teach. So what if he doesn't compose an offense for NBA players( Most have no problem in knowing how to score the ball). This strategy will also be baffling to the opposing team!! The most important thing in the NBA that needs to be taught is what Woody has been teaching since he got here. Hard to hate on someone that has been consistent in his ways since he has been here and the current result is a 11-3 record. No wait, Yeah let's fire the guy with the best record in the league(Yeah that will teach him and no of course it won't be any pressure for the next guy coming in, We welcome you, until you lose your first game).

[bonethugz]

Some of you better look around the league, and see what "winning teams" actually do to keep themselves winners.

- Lakers:

What young player has developed under Phil Jackson. Farmar? . Nope. Walton? . . nope. Adam Morrison? . . nope. Only Bynum has developed under Phil . . and that took 4 years. The core of the Lakers are made up of veteran players who all have experience in being "the man" on a team ( Bryant, Odom, Gasol, Artest )

- Celtics:

What young player has developed under Doc Rivers? Rondo? . . definitely, but only after the talent around him was greatly upgraded. House? . . no, he's the same one-dimensional player. Gearld Green? . . .lol, I think he's out the league now. Al Jefferson? . . definitely, but they traded him for the all around skills and team leadership of KG. Big Baby? . . yes. But like the Lakers, the core of the Celtics are made up of players who have experience in being "the man" on a team. ( Pierce, Garnett, Allen, Rasheed Wallace )

- Cavaliers:

What young player has devloped under Mike Brown? Varejao? . . nope, he's the same player. Daniel Gibson? . . he had that one good year, and has regressed. Delonte West? . . I'll say slightly yes. Mo Williams? . . I'll say yes. The Cavs do have the luxury of having the most versatile player in the league, who is arguably the best in the league.

- Magic:

What young players has Stan Van Gundy developed? JJ Redick? . . it took 3.5 years of JJ being totally useless, but yes. Nelson? . . . definitely. Courtney Lee? . . yes, but they traded him for a major upgrade in Vince Carter. So I guess Stan is the man, when it comes to developing young players, even though they have three high priced players on the squad ( Carter, Lewis, Howard )

The fact is that when you're a winning team, you're usually going to be filled with veteran players, and more than likely, you're not going to have a small payroll. Championships cost money, most of the time.

And it's contradictory to say that Woody is doing a great job, but has plateaued . . .at 11 - 3 . . which is our best start in 13 years. So far, a Hawk team under Woody hasn't failed to improve on the season before. And this season looks to be no different. But he's plateued? How? In what way?

Not you personally, but I think some people are afraid that this team may do really well under Woody, forcing Sund to re-sign him. Barring an NBA title, they'll always find a reason to dislike him, and wanting him gone.

It's amazing to see the coaches being tossed around to replace Woody.

- Byron Scott: I think he's a decent coach. But it doesn't look good for him when he can't win with Chris Paul playing out of his mind . . but the Hornets GM comes down, and coaches a Paul-less team to 2 wins over the best team in the East and the West ( Phoenix )

- Mike Fratello: I have nothing against Mike, but it's not like he's one of the top minds in the NBA. Quick . . has Mike ever coached a team to a conference final? Some of you touting Fratello may want to look that up.

- Avery Johnson: Definitely a good coach in my opinion. But don't forget, he was the coach of the Mavs . . the #1 seeded Mavs back in 07 . . when they got embarassed by the #8 seed Golden St. Warriors in the 1st round of the playoffs. That's part of the reason why he doesn't have a job now. That, and the fact that he probably wants a ton of money to coach again.

what are you talking about?

phil jackson, who says he's good at developing young players? he is good at managing players, ie dennis rodman. still i'm sure he's better than woody. i'm thinking about the 90 -92 bulls. stacy king, scott williams, bj armstrong & horace grant(all-star).

doc rivers, gerald green was traded with al jefferson for kg. so you basically don't court both players at all. as for who he develop? rondo, of course he is. what about big baby davis? kendrick perkins? you are courting eddie house? the guy was a 6, 7 years veteran when he joined the celtics. one more note, i think mike miller was rookie of the year when rivers was with the magic.

van gundy, about lee, what does it have to do with trades? he was good with the magic last year, or as a rookie. and wasn't wade a rookie of the year with van gundy and the heat?

of course, there are great coach who develop players also good at the x & o. for example, nate mcmillian, gregg popovich, rick adelman, jerry sloan i'm sure i'm missing a lot of good names.

Edited November 24, 2009 by bonethugz

[spotatl]

How on earth can you say that Woodson has done a poor job developing guards when he hasn't had anything to work with? When Salim was here there were plenty of fans who thought that Woodson wasn't using him right. Then Salim became a free agent and is now out of the league because he simply isn't NBA material. He simply was a bad draftpick. People thought that Acie wasn't being used right. Then he got traded and the Warriors didn't even think he was good enough to pick up his 4th year team option. He simply was a poor draftpick. Its not like Woodson just sat on young players and as soon as they went to a different coach they all the sudden showed that they were being misused.

[AHF]

Its not like Woodson just sat on young players and as soon as they went to a different coach they all the sudden showed that they were being misused.

Boris Diaw is the only one who fits that description. I don't think young players are well served by a role with expectations that change game to game but I agree with your point that Salim, Shelden and Acie didn't show they were legit NBA players who were being wasted after being traded or released by the Hawks.

[spotatl]

Woodson did miss on Boris Diaw. but I think thats a case of D'Antoni seeing WAAAY outside the box and was just a brilliant move rather than a gaffe on Woodson's part. Ironically Diaw is probably the young Hawks that I think the fans were the most down on. I think there was much more of a push for Woodson to play Acie, Shelden, and even Salim. I also think that Diaw had one really great year and he hasn't been the same player since he stopped playing center.

I also think its ironic that Woodson got more out of Shelden than either of the next 2 teams he played for got out of him.

I just think that when you use retrospect Woodson has been a pretty good judge of talent for young players. He identified early on that the young players he had were not good enough- long before many fans came to the same conclusion. At least for me I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on Teague until I see more reason to think he is wrong.

Edited November 24, 2009 by spotatl

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Right.

I mean, who would even dream of using "timid" Boris Diaw at center? And even that move was out of desperation, because Amare was hurt and they needed someone with a little size to play the position. So D'Antoni tried Boris out at center, and found that the Suns could be a very effective offensive ballclub, by instructing Diaw to beat people off the dribble. But what really made that work, was Shawn Marion's rebounding ability.

So I'm definitely not faulting Woody for misusing Diaw, because he didn't play him at center. LOL . . he played him at every position BUT center, and he still was way too timid on offense.

As for Teague, he's finishing at a much worse % on his FGs at the rim, than Acie did. According to NBA hotspots data, Acie shot 51.4% on his shots around the rim in his rookie year ( which is a little below average for most PGs ).

As of right now, Teague is shooting 37.9% from that same area ( which is absolutely horrible ). Of course, Teague has all year to improve that percentage. But the fact that even in limited time, that Teague is shooting that low from point blank range, is troubling. Big time troubling.

That's why I think JJ and Bibby are trying to encourage him to take mid-range jumpers. If he's having trouble finishing around the rim, he can use his quickness to create enough space to shoot 10 - 18 foot jumpers ( ala how Deron Williams does ). That'll make him a more effective player, until he learns just how to finish at the rim.

In the preseason, he was drawing a lot of fouls ( ironically, mainly with replacement NBA refs ). But now that the real refs are back, he may not get those preseason calls . . . especially being a rookie.

Edited November 24, 2009 by northcyde

[TheNorthCydeRises]

what are you talking about?

phil jackson, who says he's good at developing young players? he is good at managing players, ie dennis rodman. still i'm sure he's better than woody. i'm thinking about the 90 -92 bulls. stacy king, scott williams, bj armstrong & horace grant(all-star).

doc rivers, gerald green was traded with al jefferson for kg. so you basically don't court both players at all. as for who he develop? rondo, of course he is. what about big baby davis? kendrick perkins? you are courting eddie house? the guy was a 6, 7 years veteran when he joined the celtics. one more note, i think mike miller was rookie of the year when rivers was with the magic.

van gundy, about lee, what does it have to do with trades? he was good with the magic last year, or as a rookie. and wasn't wade a rookie of the year with van gundy and the heat?

of course, there are great coach who develop players also good at the x & o. for example, nate mcmillian, gregg popovich, rick adelman, jerry sloan i'm sure i'm missing a lot of good names.

So let me ask you this?

Why do all of those other coaches get credit for developing their players, but Woody can't get credit for developing the two best players on this team . . . Joe Johnson and Josh Smith?

According to Jay Bilas on draft night, Josh Smith was going to be a bust. According to a lot of NBA experts, Joe Johnson could NEVER be a #1 scoring option for a successful team.

Yet, both of those things have been proven untrue . . . with Woody being the coach of both of those players.

So why can't Woody get any credit . . MAJOR CREDIT . . for the development of JJ and Smoove?

[NineOhTheRino]

Job security is at the root of the issue.

Message to ASG: Either fire Woody or extend him 5 years. Extend him then maybe he would be OK with developing young players.

Edited November 24, 2009 by NineOhTheRino