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Worst DReb Bench in the NBA (Per48)

mrhonline

By mrhonline
in Homecourt

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Buzzard Enthusiast

Buzzard

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Remedy: just move Crawford to starter and bench Marvin. Then we can have a weak DReb starting group and a better DReb bench (sarcasm). Its a big deal because we did not address our needs at bigs despite getting two vets in Colllins and Joe. Right now its Crawford as our sixth man and our reserve bigs are nothing more than filler...

ZaZa has shown he can be adequate when given the minutes; but Woody insist on playing Evans and Joe Smith way to much IMO. ZaZa can and should fill in the majority of minutes when Horf or Smoove are out of the lineup.

Edited by Buzzard
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Buzzard Enthusiast

Buzzard

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The killer is..we (BK) simply p!ssed away too many high second round draft picks. Sure, he got Smoove when he had two second rounders but even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

Smoove was a late 1st round pick ( 17th) . We have not had a 2nd round pick that stuck since I don't even feel like looking it up...but its been a long long time.

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DJlaysitup Newbie

DJlaysitup

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Smoove was a late 1st round pick ( 17th) . We have not had a 2nd round pick that stuck since I don't even feel like looking it up...but its been a long long time.

That's right - my mistake...Smoove was our second pick in the first round that year..... -1 on my awesomness tongue.gif

Edited by DJlaysitup
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DJlaysitup Newbie

DJlaysitup

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Hawks second round picks (and this was when we stunk and a second rounder meant something):

2002 - David Andersen - Kinder Balognia (Italy - but Australian by birth)

2003 - Travis Hansen - BYU

2004 - Donta Smith - SE Illinois, Royal Ivey - Texas, Viktor Sanikidze - Republic of Georgia

2005 - Salim Stoudamire - Arizona, Cenk Akyol - Turkey

2006 - Solomon Jones - University of South Florida

2007 to 2008 - no 2nd round pick

2009 - Sergiy Gladyr - Ukraine

Of course there were some trades also - but basically we haven't gotten spit out of the second round and we had high second round picks for the most part.

Edited by DJlaysitup
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MaceCase Grand Master

MaceCase

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The only big that has gotten any real minutes this year is Z; so I don't see why this would be a shock. A healthy Joe S would help that, ya know, assuming that Woodson actually lets the man in the game.

It's not just that, the second unit doesn't rebound well on a per minute basis either. Zaza and Joe S are alright but Jamal and Mo really don't crash the boards.

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Buzzard Enthusiast

Buzzard

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ZaZa and Joe Smith have done their job this year. Rebounding off the bench is one thing they should be giving. ZaZa really is lazy and ineffective.

I do not think ZaZa is lazy. Big and slow a foot; but not lazy. Woody is giving Evans to many minutes and ZaZa really got lost in his rotations to start the season. Would I rather have Birdman or a healthy Pryz as my backup? Yes I would, but ZaZa is a top ten backup center and is in the top five for the east.

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TheNorthCydeRises Grand Master

TheNorthCydeRises

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Not surprised at that at all. The bench has either played great or played horribly. Our starters win games for us, not the bench. The people always clamoring for more of the bench to play, aren't really seeing what's going on. Matter of fact, go through all of the stats.

ppg - 5th ( because of Crawford )

total reb - 28th

asst - 21st

stls - 8th ( because of Teague and Zaza basically )

blks - 20th

tos - 4th ( which is great )

Dreb - 30th ( as cited )

Oreb - 15th ( Zaza )

FG% - 14th

3FG% - 13th ( only shooting .335 though )

FT% - 5th ( mainly Crawford )

EFF - 10th ( which is good, because when they play well, they're great )

Deff - 20th ( a -2.4 ) . . . The Deff stat stands for Difference in efficiency between us and our opponent. The -2.4 is significant, because although our bench is efficient, it shows that our bench routinely gets outplayed . . which is what I've been saying all along. Look at some of the teams below us, that has a worse Deff number than we do.

Phoenix ( 23nd . . . -3.1 )

Chicago ( 26th . . . -5.2 )

LA Lakers ( 27th . . -6.5 )

All are teams that are known to have bad benches.

Meanwhile, guess who are the top teams in this category.

San Antonio ( 1st . . . 9.8 )

Cleveland ( 2nd . . . 6.4 )

NY Knicks ( 5th . . . 3.8 ) . . because of the firepower that Al Harrington, and now Nate Robinson brings to the group.

Of the top 15 teams with the highest bench EFF ratings, only Atlanta, Phoenix, and Philadelphia also have negative Deff ratings. 3 teams that heavily rely on their starters to win games.

Once again mrH. Good stuff.

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TheNorthCydeRises Grand Master

TheNorthCydeRises

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And just to drive that last point home even further . . .

Starters EFF rating: 2nd ( 25.9 ) . . . only Phoenix with 26.4 is ahead of them

Starters Deff rating: 3rd ( 5.0 ) . . . only the Lakers ( 6.6 ) and the Boston ( 6.2 ) are ahead of them.

Last 3 games ( lol . . check this out )

Starters EFF rating: 17th ( 23.2 ) . . . Bench EFF rating: 24th ( 15.6 )

Starters Deff rating: 11th ( 2.3 ) . . . Bench EFF rating: 27th ( - 16.9 )

Yet, people want this bench to play more? LOL

So maybe the solution for Woody and the Hawks is to play the bench LESS ( including Crawford ), and live and die with the starters, much like the Lakers do.

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Buzzard Enthusiast

Buzzard

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Not surprised at that at all. The bench has either played great or played horribly. Our starters win games for us, not the bench. The people always clamoring for more of the bench to play, aren't really seeing what's going on. Matter of fact, go through all of the stats.

ppg - 5th ( because of Crawford )

total reb - 28th

asst - 21st

stls - 8th ( because of Teague and Zaza basically )

blks - 20th

tos - 4th ( which is great )

Dreb - 30th ( as cited )

Oreb - 15th ( Zaza )

FG% - 14th

3FG% - 13th ( only shooting .335 though )

FT% - 5th ( mainly Crawford )

EFF - 10th ( which is good, because when they play well, they're great )

Deff - 20th ( a -2.4 ) . . . The Deff stat stands for Difference in efficiency between us and our opponent. The -2.4 is significant, because although our bench is efficient, it shows that our bench routinely gets outplayed . . which is what I've been saying all along. Look at some of the teams below us, that has a worse Deff number than we do.

Phoenix ( 23nd . . . -3.1 )

Chicago ( 26th . . . -5.2 )

LA Lakers ( 27th . . -6.5 )

All are teams that are known to have bad benches.

Meanwhile, guess who are the top teams in this category.

San Antonio ( 1st . . . 9.8 )

Cleveland ( 2nd . . . 6.4 )

NY Knicks ( 5th . . . 3.8 ) . . because of the firepower that Al Harrington, and now Nate Robinson brings to the group.

Of the top 15 teams with the highest bench EFF ratings, only Atlanta, Phoenix, and Philadelphia also have negative Deff ratings. 3 teams that heavily rely on their starters to win games.

Once again mrH. Good stuff.

So the reason our bench is efficient is because of Crawford, ZaZa, and Teague. Is this an argument against our bench or for? Because that is pretty good stuff that we have three bench players whom are good at a couple of important categories. And since Evans is not found, it also emphasizes how over used he is and under used Teague and ZaZa are.

San Antonios bench is good because of two players, Blair and Ginolbli

Clevelands is good because of two players, Verejao and Big Z

NY you cited Harrington and now Nate

I agree 100%; Our hot hands were our starters against the Knicks and Crawford played way to many minutes especially in the 4th quarter of that game.

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TheNorthCydeRises Grand Master

TheNorthCydeRises

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So the reason our bench is efficient is because of Crawford, ZaZa, and Teague. Is this an argument against our bench or for? Because that is pretty good stuff that we have three bench players whom are good at a couple of important categories. And since Evans is not found, it also emphasizes how over used he is and under used Teague and ZaZa are.

San Antonios bench is good because of two players, Blair and Ginolbli

Clevelands is good because of two players, Verejao and Big Z

NY you cited Harrington and now Nate

I agree 100%; Our hot hands were our starters against the Knicks and Crawford played way to many minutes especially in the 4th quarter of that game.

The main problem with our bench is that they can't stop ANYBODY. I've been saying all year that even when we have 2 of our bench in the game, that a team may go on a run, even if Crawford is making shots. I've seen games in which Craw would have 11 pts in the first half, but still have a +/- rating somewhere between -4 and -8. It doesn't seem possible, but it happens all the time. They just don't stop people.

Our bench could shoot 50%, and still be inefficient all around, because they're letting the other team shoot 63%. It's been happening all year. The bench had that very good 5 game stretch in which the starters got out to real big leads, and the bench was able to either extend the lead, or at least hold ground.

What is eventually going to happen, is that Woody is going to severely tighten this rotation even more, causing people to hate him. JJ will go back to playing 40 minutes, along with Josh Smith, if he can stay in the game. I still say Marvin is the key to all of this. If he can get his shooting back on track, JJ will get him the ball when he's being doubled, and Marvin will knock down the shot. That'll keep Woody from relying on Crawford for ISO offense so much.

LOL @ the Steelers blowing ANOTHER 4th quarter lead. God I hope they lose.

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Buzzard Enthusiast

Buzzard

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Yet, people want this bench to play more? LOL

So maybe the solution for Woody and the Hawks is to play the bench LESS ( including Crawford ), and live and die with the starters, much like the Lakers do.

You are starting to sound like Woody now; everything is black and white. Either the bench plays a lot or not much. How a player is playing is not what is important as the game flow suggest. Which is the problem most of us have with Woodsen.

Crawford gets his minutes no matter what and Teague, ZaZa, and Evans only get big minutes during blow outs (injury and foul trouble issues a given) . ZaZa and Evans are going to get their limited minutes no matter how badly they are playing also. This is exactly what drives me crazy about Woodsen. There is no game flow for him; its just set rotations no matter how well or badly a player is doing on any given night.

You said yourself our bench is anywhere from great ( highly efficient) to atrocious on any given night; yet no matter which of the two they are, barring a blowout, injury, or foul trouble, they still get close to the same amount of minutes every night.

I am glad we finally agree on something. Even if it is only half a something.

Edited by Buzzard
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exodus Newbie

exodus

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Zaza sucks on the defensive glass. Currently he ranks 51st out of 56 centers in defensive rebounding rate, below Bargnani, Kristic and Brad Miller. He has never been any good on the defensive glass.

Crawford is the worst rebounder on the team. He doesn't like contact so he doesn't go for rebounds.

Edited by exodus
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TheTruth Experienced

TheTruth

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Not surprised at that at all. The bench has either played great or played horribly. Our starters win games for us, not the bench. The people always clamoring for more of the bench to play, aren't really seeing what's going on. Matter of fact, go through all of the stats.

ppg - 5th ( because of Crawford )

total reb - 28th

asst - 21st

stls - 8th ( because of Teague and Zaza basically )

blks - 20th

tos - 4th ( which is great )

Dreb - 30th ( as cited )

Oreb - 15th ( Zaza )

FG% - 14th

3FG% - 13th ( only shooting .335 though )

FT% - 5th ( mainly Crawford )

EFF - 10th ( which is good, because when they play well, they're great )

Deff - 20th ( a -2.4 ) . . . The Deff stat stands for Difference in efficiency between us and our opponent. The -2.4 is significant, because although our bench is efficient, it shows that our bench routinely gets outplayed . . which is what I've been saying all along. Look at some of the teams below us, that has a worse Deff number than we do.

Phoenix ( 23nd . . . -3.1 )

Chicago ( 26th . . . -5.2 )

LA Lakers ( 27th . . -6.5 )

All are teams that are known to have bad benches.

Meanwhile, guess who are the top teams in this category.

San Antonio ( 1st . . . 9.8 )

Cleveland ( 2nd . . . 6.4 )

NY Knicks ( 5th . . . 3.8 ) . . because of the firepower that Al Harrington, and now Nate Robinson brings to the group.

Of the top 15 teams with the highest bench EFF ratings, only Atlanta, Phoenix, and Philadelphia also have negative Deff ratings. 3 teams that heavily rely on their starters to win games.

Once again mrH. Good stuff.

Very good stuff northcyde. Our bench needs to get it together in terms of rebounding and +/- performance. I NEVER liked Zaza as a defensive rebounder because he just doesn't give you a lot of it despite his size. Hopefully Joe Smith will be effective enough to earn minutes to couteract this deficiency in rebounding. Bottom line is this: our bench needs to do all the little things...better.

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