Woody isn't a bad coach...he just doesn't know how to coach..

[jy23]

Ok...............Who was Woody coaching under in detroit? The GREAT Larry Brown, whom most of us would agree is a pretty damn good coach correct? Ok....so how many times do yuo remember Larry drawing up plays at the end of games......dont worry I'll wait............was it in Philly.....HECK no, he gave the ball to Iverson and said go make a play........In detroit.....not really....I remember on numerous occasions Billups taking the ball and going ISO and putting the shot hence the nickname Mr. Big Shot. I mean do you people think Woody came up with this concept yesterday or something, NO he learned it from someone else. Larry preached defense...so does Woody. Now I haven't been a big fan of Woody but I'm starting to come around, he knows what he's talking about (still don't like his subbing methods but hey...cant have it all). Lets do another example....THE GREAT PHIL JACKSON....how many game winners do you think he's EVER drawn up, do you think Mike's shot over Russel was something they drew up in the huddle or how about him tripping going towards the ball catching it fading towards the middle of the court and double pumping on Ehlo....that was the play huh? How about Kobe's numerous game winners....the fade away three he hit this year over Wade...yeah I think he drew that one up or that ridiculous three he hit in the finals against detroit in 05 which was the only game they won in that series...yep he drew that one up too. What about Popp.....the game against the Lakers in the 05 playoffs where Tim hit that ridiculous fall away three wiht Shaq in his face....did Popp do that? Or the three Tim hit in the playoffs against the Suns that year.....did Popp do that or was Duncan just open bc nobody cared he was behind the 3 point line. ALMOST ALL GAME WINNERS COME FROM ISO PLAYS, you just give the ball to your best player and hope he makes something happen. Woody preached defense and said that offense would take care of itself...seems to be working just fine now. Every coach has a philosophy and just needs the right personel to take care of the job for him....right now it seems we have that. We have 2 guys now who can take the ball and make plays at the end of the game.....y take the ball away from them so that we can give it to Smoove? Give the ball to the clutch guys and let them make a play......its not that hard of a concept to grasp. All this talk about drawing up plays at the end of the game is nice......but it just doesn't happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MVP23]

You guys don't get it. Our Offense is only good because almost everyone on the team is capable of dropping 20. the problem is if Woody would actually run a set or two, do you know how dangerous this offense would be? Our Defense is good, I'll give woody credit for that. I really don't care about stats, because according to the Stats, the Bobcats should be the best team in the league. Doc Rivers, Van Gundy, and even mike Brown would all outcoach woody come playoff time, because Woodys offense is so predicable its not funny....and where is Teague??

[Birdman316]

this is the way i see it:

Marvin sucks. He doesnt hit open jumpers no more and he rarley does anything in the paint.

Smith can get to the basket but he hasnt been as effective there recently

Bibby is not going to scare anyone off the dribble

So what plays do you run? The only plays that SEEM to work:

-ISO Joe ands Craw

-Bibby coming off screens

-Al on the post

-PNR

At times Marvin might hit a jumper, Smith might get to the rim. Even Joe Smith was hitting open jumpers before he got injured. And Mo is streaky.

Again who else are you going to run your offense through? Besides Al and maybe Josh who else is going to get to the basket, create their own shot or create for others?

Woodson is basically saying I want to put the ball in my best players hand. It isnt the offense scheme. What needs to happen is Joe and Craw need to not only create for themselves but for others. And everyone else need to stop standing around when they have the ball

Edited January 17, 2010 by Birdman316

[MVP23]

this is the way i see it:

Marvin sucks. He doesnt hit open jumpers no more and he rarley does anything in the paint.

Smith can get to the basket but he hasnt been as effective there recently

Bibby is not going to scare anyone off the dribble

So what plays do you run? The only plays that SEEM to work:

-ISO Joe ands Craw

-Bibby coming off screens

-Al on the post

-PNR

At times Marvin might hit a jumper, Smith might get to the rim. Even Joe Smith was hitting open jumpers before he got injured. And Mo is streaky.

Again who else are you going to run your offense through? Besides Al and maybe Josh who else is going to get to the basket, create their own shot or create for others?

Woodson is basically saying I want to put the ball in my best players hand. It isnt the offense scheme. What needs to happen is Joe and Craw need to not only create for themselves but for others. And everyone else need to stop standing around when they have the ball

..So why not run a set to get Bibs open on the outside? Hell, run more pick and rolls. Bibs has the best jumper on the team imo. Play to his strengths.

..i kind of agree with you about Marv

Post Smoove up. put him in the paint with Al. He can't shoot, so why is he 15 feet away from the basket?

And for the 7th time, WHERE IS TEAGUE?..Yeah, Bibs can't drive, but Teague can. If anything, Teagues driving will open up Bibs on the outside, Joe on the outside, Craw on the outside, and Al and Smoove in the paint...but thats ok, because Mario West is what we need!

[Plainview1981]

The failures of this team in crunch time suggest the offense is not all that great. It's about WHEN YOU DO IT. When it gets to the 4th period, the offense has often struggled this season like it did against Cleveland and Phx. The Hawk were lucky to win that game against Phx. Lucky. In the 4th period the team didn't know where to go or anything against Phx. Al should be getting more shot attempts on this team and that's getting more clear by the game. Josh Smith is only so so around the rim unless he is dunking. His offense is no better now than it was last year because he has replaced 3's with long 2's and his overall shooting percentage is just barely better than last season. Last year with the 3's he shot 49.2% and he is shooting 50.8% this year without the 3's. Not a big difference.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Hotlanta1981

[Birdman316]

When Teague drives most of the time he gets it blocked or he misses. A few times he finishes but he doesnt get to the paint enough. And when he does he either gets it block or misses. And he needs to become more consistant with his jump shot.

[Diesel]

But the reliance on ISOs and on the players to create has run us into trouble when we face teams who force us to play half-court ball. And rest assured that that will happen in the playoffs again this year. Simply put, Larry Brown and Stan Van Gundy are better at defensive schemes than the Hawks backcourt is at offensive schemes. That isn't surprising considering that players aren't, you know, coaches.

I think this point needs repeating. We have to get ready for playoff basketball. Our problem in the playoffs has been a lack of offense. That is because... good defensive coaches can gameplan for Iso basketball. We do not have an inside scoring force (like we need). I am hoping that Horford can keep growing. I was proud of his production in the Suns game. If he can learn to bury that baseline and highpost shot, then we get a weapon that cannot be ignored. The same is true with the Bibby to Smoove turn around. But.... none of this is so relevant if we don't start to develop more offensive plays.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

You guys are missing his point, that Woodson doesn't coach on offense. When crunch time comes, and the coach only draws up iso's its pretty obvious that he either doesn't like to draw up plays or doesn't know how to. Game winners are fun and all but when the playoff comes, I'd rather have a decent play ran at the end of the game than a Joe iso. Even, Hollinger stated that our offense has been very good because of hustle and rebounds and not iso's which is what woodson decides to run during the fourth quarter.

Now you have to ask yourself this question. When a team is down by 1 with less than 10 seconds left, how many games have you seen come down to a great coaching play that led to an easy basket . . . as opposed to an iso basket by their star player?

Cleveland runs ISO Lebron in that situation.

Miami runs ISO Wade

Lakers run ISO Kobe

Dallas run ISO Dirk

Wizards run ISO Arenas ( or they used to )

Jazz run ISO Deron

Portland runs ISO Roy

New Orleans runs ISO Paul

Phoenix runs ISO Nash

Just about any team with a good creating guard or wing player, is going to run an ISO play for that guy at the end of the game. It's then up to the ISO guy to either make the shot, or find the open man if he's doubled. That's when it's important for the coach to surround that ISO player with shooters/slashers who can either get him a 2 at the rim, or knock down an open jumper.

Woody really doesn't do anything else differently, than most coaches do at the end of games. It's just that some of those teams have a better ISO player than we do, or they have better post players than we do.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I think this point needs repeating. We have to get ready for playoff basketball. Our problem in the playoffs has been a lack of offense. That is because... good defensive coaches can gameplan for Iso basketball. We do not have an inside scoring force (like we need). I am hoping that Horford can keep growing. I was proud of his production in the Suns game. If he can learn to bury that baseline and highpost shot, then we get a weapon that cannot be ignored. The same is true with the Bibby to Smoove turn around. But.... none of this is so relevant if we don't start to develop more offensive plays.

Diesel . . . playoff basketball means that you have to turn it up defensively. If you don't, you'll get bounced quickly.

Even the great offensive teams that win in the playoffs, don't win because of their offense. They win because of their defense. Orlando's run to the NBA Finals last year definitely wasn't because of offense, because they struggled offensively in those first 2 series. But defensively, they were rock solid all the way up until the NBA Finals. Unfortunately for them, the Lakers were also playing at a high level defensively and had the players that could somewhat neutralize Dwight Howard.

The reason why you see big time individual playoff performances in the playoffs, is because the good ISO players usually take over games. Plus a coach may shorten his bench rotation to 7 - 8 players, instead of the 9 - 10 he played during the regular season.

[jy23]

Now you have to ask yourself this question. When a team is down by 1 with less than 10 seconds left, how many games have you seen come down to a great coaching play that led to an easy basket . . . as opposed to an iso basket by their star player?

Cleveland runs ISO Lebron in that situation.

Miami runs ISO Wade

Lakers run ISO Kobe

Dallas run ISO Dirk

Wizards run ISO Arenas ( or they used to )

Jazz run ISO Deron

Portland runs ISO Roy

New Orleans runs ISO Paul

Phoenix runs ISO Nash

Just about any team with a good creating guard or wing player, is going to run an ISO play for that guy at the end of the game. It's then up to the ISO guy to either make the shot, or find the open man if he's doubled. That's when it's important for the coach to surround that ISO player with shooters/slashers who can either get him a 2 at the rim, or knock down an open jumper.

Woody really doesn't do anything else differently, than most coaches do at the end of games. It's just that some of those teams have a better ISO player than we do, or they have better post players than we do.

Same things I was saying earlier, we agree north n you've almost brought me around on woody.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Same things I was saying earlier, we agree north n you've almost brought me around on woody.

I gotta admit, I didn't read the entire thread before I posted what I posted. Had I read your earlier post, I would've just co-signed what you said.

What I've consistently said about Woody for the past 2 - 3 years, is that he doesn't anything vastly different than most coaches in the NBA. People used to make a huge deal about his "timed substitutions", but every coach in the league does that, especially in the 1st halves of games. It's just a lot of stuff that he's flat out villified for, that really doesn't make any sense . . . because ALL COACHES basically do some of the things he does.

He still has "timed substitutions". Everybody knows exactly when Crawford is going to enter the game, regardless of what is going on in the game. But you haven't heard one person cry about a "timed substitution" this year. Not one.

Woody is nowhere near a perfect coach. But a bad coach? Nah. But he's proven this year that if he has talent, he can actually coach up the talent.

Jamal Crawford is playing far beyond my wildest expectations. Were talking about a 40% FG shooter whose claim to fame is the fact that he's NEVER been to the playoffs, and has one of the worst shot selections in the league. Yet, he comes here, and is coming up big time for us on more than a few occasions? Plus he's at least trying to play defense?

Sorry folks . . I gotta give Woody some of the credit for Jamal's efficiency. People will hate when I say that, because I also give credit to Woody for the mental development of JJ from a "what a star should do" standpoint, and the development of Josh Smith.

People can keep on believing that "he's a horrible coach" stuff if they want to.

[DJlaysitup]

When Teague drives most of the time he gets it blocked or he misses. A few times he finishes but he doesnt get to the paint enough. And when he does he either gets it block or misses. And he needs to become more consistant with his jump shot.

Actually Teague is pretty consistent with his jumpshot....that's the problem.

[niremetal]

Now you have to ask yourself this question. When a team is down by 1 with less than 10 seconds left, how many games have you seen come down to a great coaching play that led to an easy basket . . . as opposed to an iso basket by their star player?

Cleveland runs ISO Lebron in that situation.

Miami runs ISO Wade

Lakers run ISO Kobe

Dallas run ISO Dirk

Wizards run ISO Arenas ( or they used to )

Jazz run ISO Deron

Portland runs ISO Roy

New Orleans runs ISO Paul

Phoenix runs ISO Nash

Just about any team with a good creating guard or wing player, is going to run an ISO play for that guy at the end of the game. It's then up to the ISO guy to either make the shot, or find the open man if he's doubled. That's when it's important for the coach to surround that ISO player with shooters/slashers who can either get him a 2 at the rim, or knock down an open jumper.

Woody really doesn't do anything else differently, than most coaches do at the end of games. It's just that some of those teams have a better ISO player than we do, or they have better post players than we do.

You're mostly right. Too bad NBA games don't consist entirely of the last 10 seconds of a 1-point game. All the coaches you listed there save for Mike Brown (whose teams have collapsed three straight years in the playoff against good defense) and Miami (do you really want Erik Spoelstra as an example?) generally do not run that play frequently throughout an entire game, as Woody does.

Oh, and Phoenix does not run ISO Nash nor does Utah run ISO Deron nor does Dallas run ISO Dirk with consistency. That's just BS. As often as not, Phoenix draw up a play for Amare (and sometimes even for J-Rich) and Utah will almost invariably run a screen roll with Deron and Boozer. In Dallas, the ball often ends up in Kidd or Terry's hands with the hope of getting an open look for Dirk. That's not the same as an ISO. Not at all. All three of these teams use off-ball movement and/or ball movement to create open shots.

As for the rest of the teams, they generally do NOT run ISO plays during the first 46 minutes of a game. That way, the defense has gotten fewer looks at the play that will be run in the last 2 minutes.

Edited January 18, 2010 by niremetal

[spotatl]

To me the issue isn't with the Offense starting with Joe Johnson 1 on 1. To me NBA offenses should start this way since the NBA has made 1 on 1 defense virtually illegal. Its what happens once the double team comes. If Joe is drawing a double, finding the open man, and letting other people attack an unsettled defense then I think its a spectacular offense for the Hawks. If Joe is drawing the double, finding the open man, then shooting anyway then I think the hawks are in trouble. If Joe were getting shut down 1 on 1 without any help coming then the offense isn't working but thats not the issue. To me the whole point is to find some way of drawing a double team so the defense had to start leaving other people over to cover. To me the Hawks problem is that the only guys who are really capable of consistently drawing a double team are Crawford and Joe.