Smoove For DPOY?

[Deeman]

http://www.nba.com/hawks/What_I_Do.html

The skits are pretty funny, but does he actually have a chance at winning DPOY this year?

[wfhawkfan]

:laugh: at the rebounds and block skits

[Diesel]

http://www.nba.com/hawks/What_I_Do.html

The skits are pretty funny, but does he actually have a chance at winning DPOY this year?

Nah.

Dwight Howard has 13.3 rpg, 2.8 bpg, and 1.0 spg... plus he intimidates most offenses.

[niremetal]

http://www.nba.com/hawks/What_I_Do.html

The skits are pretty funny, but does he actually have a chance at winning DPOY this year?

Probably not. But that's ok, because who wins DPOY has nothing to do with who actually is the best defensive player in the league. Votes and voters for DPOY fall into 3 categories. Most of the voters are idiots like Mark Bradley and Jeff Schultz, who don't know anything about the importance and nuances of playing defense in basketball and therefore vote for the players with the most blocks, steals, and/or rebounds. That's why Marcus Camby - one of the weakest on-ball post defenders in the NBA - won DPOY. And why the Nuggets' defense improved immensely the year after he was traded for a pile of beans. The other categories of players who get lots of votes are 2) superstars and 3) grizzled veterans with a long reputation for defensive toughness (though the latter category never actually wins - they just get a few votes). That's a better basis than looking at blocks and steals, but it's still a BS reason.

The best on-ball defenders in the NBA the past 5+ years have been Shane Battier on the perimeter and Tim Duncan in the post. Neither has won a DPOY. For help D, it's been Josh the past couple years and either Kirilenko or Garnett before that. Relatedly, Kirilenko and Garnett were also the most versatile defenders in the league, the only guys who were actually good-to-great at guarding any of the 5 positions. Kirilenko never won, and Garnett only won based on reputation after several players had surpassed him in terms of both versatility and help impact.

Josh is the league's best help defender, and his impact playing help D and in transition D makes him one of the 5 best defensive players in the league overall, IMHO. But that's been true for at least 2 seasons past and hasn't led to him getting even an All-Defensive team selection. So I doubt he'll get DPOY this time. Look for D-12 to take it home again and Artest to get the reputation votes. Varejao might get some votes too. I think Josh will finish Top 5, but I would be (pleasantly) shocked if he came close to winning.

(Also, a tip to the Hawks' PR staff: Being 25th in the NBA in rebounds isn't exactly a selling point. But the skit was funny.)

Edited March 11, 2010 by niremetal

[SmooveTheFuture]

If his rebounds per game were around 11 he would def have a legit chance but not this year Howard will win it. He is def. on gonna win be on the Defensive all nba first team.

[Diesel]

If his rebounds per game were around 11 he would def have a legit chance but not this year Howard will win it. He is def. on gonna win be on the Defensive all nba first team.

A guy that has a shot at Howard is Gerald Wallace, but he has to get his steals a little higher.

Of Course, Dwayne Wade and Lebron will get their votes too.

[Atlantaholic]

DPOY has nothing to do with defense, so I'm not to worried about whether Smoove gets it or not. He is definitely a very good defender, but he still needs to improve to be among the very best. What sets Smith apart is that he is the complete package. Very good defense, very good offense. if he continues to improve he could definitely become a perennial All-Star. He isn't quite there yet though.

[Diesel]

DPOY has nothing to do with defense, so I'm not to worried about whether Smoove gets it or not. He is definitely a very good defender, but he still needs to improve to be among the very best. What sets Smith apart is that he is the complete package. Very good defense, very good offense. if he continues to improve he could definitely become a perennial All-Star. He isn't quite there yet though.

Holic,

I have heard you crying about this a few times already. I don't understand. So i have gathered the list of winners of the DPOY since it's inception. I want to ask, who should not be on this list and who should?

1982–83 Moncrief, SidneySidney Moncrief

1983–84 Moncrief, SidneySidney Moncrief (2)

1984–85 Eaton, MarkMark Eaton

1985–86 Robertson, AlvinAlvin Robertson

1986–87 Cooper, MichaelMichael Cooper

1987–88 Jordan, MichaelMichael Jordan

1988–89 Eaton, MarkMark Eaton

1989–90 Rodman, DennisDennis Rodman

1990–91 Rodman, DennisDennis Rodman

1991–92 Robinson, DavidDavid Robinson

1992–93 Olajuwon, HakeemHakeem Olajuwon

1993–94 Olajuwon, HakeemHakeem Olajuwon

1994–95 Mutombo, DikembeDikembe Mutombo

1995–96 Payton, GaryGary Payton

1996–97 Mutombo, DikembeDikembe Mutombo

1997–98 Mutombo, DikembeDikembe Mutombo

1998–99 Mourning, AlonzoAlonzo Mourning

1999–00 Mourning, AlonzoAlonzo Mourning

2000–01 Mutombo, DikembeDikembe Mutombo

2001–02 Wallace, BenBen Wallace

2002–03 Wallace, BenBen Wallace

2003–04 Artest, RonRon Artest

2004–05 Wallace, BenBen Wallace

2005–06 Wallace, BenBen Wallace

2006–07 Camby, MarcusMarcus Camby

2007–08 Garnett, KevinKevin Garnett

2008–09 Howard, DwightDwight Howard

[Diesel]

Holic, I even took that task for myself. I said Kevin Garnett in 2007-2008. SO I went to what the coaches had to say...

This is their All Defensive teams:

2007-08 NBA ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM

Position Player, Team 1st 2nd Points

Forward Kevin Garnett, Boston 24 4 52

Guard Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 24 4 52

Center Marcus Camby, Denver 14 9 37

Guard/Forward Bruce Bowen, San Antonio 13 10 36

Forward Tim Duncan, San Antonio 12 9 33

2007-08 NBA ALL-DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM

Position Player, Team 1st 2nd Points

Forward Shane Battier, Houston 9 11 29

Guard Chris Paul, New Orleans 10 6 26

Center Dwight Howard, Orlando 8 9 25

Forward Tayshaun Prince, Detroit 3 14 20

Guard Raja Bell, Phoenix 4 10 18

Other players receiving votes, with point totals (First Team votes in parentheses): Chauncey Billups, Detroit, 14 (5); Jason Kidd, Dallas, 13 (4); Rasheed Wallace, Detroit, 13 (3); Rajon Rondo, Boston, 11 (3); Deron Williams, Utah, 8, (3); Josh Smith, Atlanta, 8, (3); Ron Artest, Sacramento, 8 (2); Tyson Chandler, New Orleans, 8 (1); Andrei Kirilenko, Utah, 6; Derek Fisher, Los Angeles Lakers, 4 (1); LeBron James, Cleveland, 4 (1); Manu Ginobili, San Antonio, 4 (1); Kirk Hinrich, Chicago, 3 (1); Samuel Dalembert, Philadelphia, 3 (1); Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia, 2 (1); Brandon Roy, Portland, 2; Paul Pierce, Boston, 2; Andre Miller, Philadelphia, 1; Andres Nocioni, Chicago, 1; Baron Davis, Golden State, 1; Caron Butler, Washington, 1; Chris Bosh, Toronto, 1; Dikembe Mutombo, Houston, 1; Josh Howard, Dallas, 1; Richard Hamilton, Detroit, 1; Ronnie Brewer, Utah, 1.

Only Kobe got as many points from the coaches.

KG got 24/30 coaches to give him a first place vote. That's impressive.

[High5]

No way Wallace should be a 4x winner while Duncan has none.

As far as this year's race, there shouldn't be one. Howard is the DPOY.

[Diesel]

No way Wallace should be a 4x winner while Duncan has none.

As far as this year's race, there shouldn't be one. Howard is the DPOY.

2001-02 NBA All-Defensive Teams:

NBA ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM

Player Team Points 1st Team Votes

Tim Duncan San Antonio 40 17

Kevin Garnett Minnesota 27 10

Ben Wallace Detroit 51 24

Gary Payton Seattle 47 20

Jason Kidd New Jersey 37 15

2002-03 NBA ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM

Position Player, Team Points 1st Votes

Forward Kevin Garnett, Minnesota 47 (22)

Forward Tim Duncan, San Antonio 44 (18)

Center Ben Wallace, Detroit 55 (27)

Guard Doug Christie, Sacramento 38 (14)

Guard Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 35 (15)

2004-05 NBA ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM

Postion Player Team Points First Team Votes

Center Ben Wallace Detroit 51 23

Forward Kevin Garnett Minnesota 48 19

Guard Bruce Bowen San Antonio 48 23

Forward Tim Duncan San Antonio 39 16

Guard Larry Hughes Washington 22 9

2005-06 NBA ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM:

Position Player, Team 1st 2nd Points

Guard Bruce Bowen, San Antonio 26 3 55

Center Ben Wallace, Detroit 26 2 54

Forward Andrei Kirilenko, Utah 19 6 44

Forward Ron Artest, Sacramento 11 8 30

Guard Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 12 4 28

Guard Jason Kidd, New Jersey 9 10 28

According to the coaches, Ben Wallace was better than Tim Duncan in the years that he won. IN 2005 however, he did steal it from Bruce Bowen (in the coaches minds). IN that year, Duncan was a 2nd teamer.

[lethalweapon3]

((Habitat construction site -- Joe is wearing a hardhat and chatting with the construction crew, standing by wheelbarrow))

((WINDOW CRASHES)) (crew ducks)

JOE (startled): Josh! (grabs wheelbarrow, approaches Josh) The wheelbarrow's right here, man. Why you gotta throw bricks from twenty feet away?

JOSH: That's what I do, man! That's what I do!

~lw3

[AHF]

No way Wallace should be a 4x winner while Duncan has none.

No award system is perfect but this list isn't so bad. I would say that there is no way Shaq should only have one MVP or that there is no way Steve Nash should have more MVPs than Shaq, but that doesn't make the MVP list a joke or anything.

Wallace was a beast defensively during that time and was at least among the top elite defenders in the league when he won those awards. The only "throw away" one appears to me to be Marcus Camby. The others all look very defensible, even if not free from controversy.

[lethalweapon3]

I think Smoove's got a better shot at MIP than DPOY, but he could get better consideration this year for Defensive Second Team.

~lw3

[High5]

No award system is perfect but this list isn't so bad. I would say that there is no way Shaq should only have one MVP or that there is no way Steve Nash should have more MVPs than Shaq, but that doesn't make the MVP list a joke or anything.

Wallace was a beast defensively during that time and was at least among the top elite defenders in the league when he won those awards. The only "throw away" one appears to me to be Marcus Camby. The others all look very defensible, even if not free from controversy.

I never said it was a joke. I just said Wallace shouldn't have 4 while Duncan has 0. Just like Jerry Sloan should have at least one COY award.

[AHF]

I never said it was a joke. I just said Wallace shouldn't have 4 while Duncan has 0. Just like Jerry Sloan should have at least one COY award.

You are right. Atlantaholic pretty much said it was a joke so I was more responding to that. Other than Camby, the list looks like a list of elite defenders to me. It is still open to second guessing, but winning a DPOY award would mean something to me.

[niremetal]

You are right. Atlantaholic pretty much said it was a joke so I was more responding to that. Other than Camby, the list looks like a list of elite defenders to me. It is still open to second guessing, but winning a DPOY award would mean something to me.

I don't think any of those guys are non-elite except Camby, Eaton, and Deke the last year he won (a classic example of reputation trumping actual performance). It's just obvious that the voters have no conception of on-ball defense, because those three were actually mediocre-to-bad as on-ball defenders the years they won. Camby and Eaton were actually always bad on-ball defenders, which makes their selections even more absurd.

But being elite isn't the issue. The issue is whether the award actually went to people who actually were the best in the league. I honestly think that there are many cases where the award went to someone who was a great defender, but there were others at his position who were clearly better but got overlooked because 1) they didn't put up gaudy block/steal numbers, 2) weren't superstars, and/or 3) the award voters couldn't give the award to someone playing on a team that wins less than 50 games (even if that lack of success was due more to offense than defense).

For instance, I know this is sacrilege around here, but Mutombo was never the best defensive player in the league, or even the best at his position. He was an elite shot-blocker and very good help defender, but even at Deke's peak, Olajuwon, Admiral, and Mourning easily exceeded him in on-ball defense and Olajuwon and Mourning equalled or exceeded him as a help defender. Duncan was easily a better defender from his 3rd year in the league onwards, both on and off the ball. If the award went to a big man, his first DPOY should have gone to Hakeem, the next to either Hakeem or Mourning, and the last to Duncan. The only season where I think there's a strong argument he deserved it over those guys was 97-98, when Mourning and Olajuwon both missed 25+ games and Duncan was a rookie. Even then, I think Duncan, Robinson, or Pippen should have gotten the award.

Really, Olajuwon should have won the award 6-7 times, not the 2 times he actually won. For much of his career, he was surrounded by mediocre on-ball defenders, but his presence on and off the ball made the Rockets consistently among the best defensive teams in the league. But early in his career, his team didn't score enough to win games, and later in his career, his block numbers plummeted as his athleticism slipped - but he remained the best on-ball post defender in the league and had the best nose for the passing lane of any center in the history of the game. And on the perimeter, it's absurd that Pippen never won the award, despite being the league's best perimeter defender and most versatile defender overall for a full decade.

Edited March 12, 2010 by niremetal

[AHF]

Everything you just typed about the DPOY not always getting the right person and how the voters seem to leave out some key aspects of play in favor of favoring other measures applies 100% to the MVP award. I put the two awards in similar territory as far as their relevance and validity.

Edited March 12, 2010 by AHF

[niremetal]

Everything you just typed about the DPOY not always getting the right person and how the voters seem to leave out some key aspects of play in favor of favoring other measures applies 100% to the MVP award. I put the two awards in similar territory as far as their relevance and validity.

I think a lot of it is similar, but definitely not "100%." Voters give more thought and pay more attention to nuance (making teammates better, otherwise having an impact beyond the stats) when they vote for MVP, even though the importance of defense still gets the shrift in that voting. But like with the Golden Gloves in baseball (the Palmeiro win in a year that he played almost all of his games as a DH is the best example), I'm convinced that most voters just don't think for more than 15 seconds when they fill out the ballot for DPOY. They look at the leaders in blocks/steals/rebounds, think about the player's reputation for a few seconds, and that's it.

I can't think of any MVP awards from the past decade that I strongly disagree with. The best argument is Dirk in 2007, but that was a year when there was no one who clearly deserved it (Kobe was at the peak of his selfish jackass phase and took tons of possessions off defensively, and Nash's already-mediocre defense crumbled to just plain bad). Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Nash, Kobe, LeBron - those are all guys who you can argue with a straight face were the most valuable players in the league when you consider all the factors that go into it. I don't think you can do the same with Camby, Eaton, or (again, sorry) Deke (at least for his first and last awards).

Edited March 12, 2010 by niremetal

[DJlaysitup]

...I'm convinced that most voters just don't think for more than 15 seconds when they fill out the ballot for DPOY. They look at the leaders in blocks/steals/rebounds, think about the player's reputation for a few seconds, and that's it.

Agreed nir. There is no stat for all the times that opposing players have simply decided not to go into the lane against the human blocking machine. Smoove changes the game in that respect. If all the opposing players just drove to the hoop without regard for Smoove - he would have like 10+ blocks a game. he'd be swatting shots like flies.

He'd get pooped.

Edited March 12, 2010 by DJlaysitup