AJC: Atlanta Hawks: J.J. willing to play for less money in New York?

[DrReality]

If Sund gets nothing for JJ it will be the beginning of the end for him.

[Buzzard]

If Sund gets nothing for JJ it will be the beginning of the end for him.

Would not suprise me at all if Sund does not want out already. Only good thing that can come out of this for him is, if he keeps us competitive despite our lack of money it will be a feather in his cap for those in the know around the league. But if it were me, I would want the hell out.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Buzzard

[Final_quest]

I hate free agency just because I have to read things like this. I want you to go and find me all the dbl SNTs you can over the last five years. None is what you will find and none is what will happen again next season.

Lee BTW is not going anywhere. NY has his birds rights and he will be in their lineup right beside Amare if that is how Amare plays it.

I should have caught what he was talking about with the David Lee reference. Still, it helped me realize that even if JJ signs for less than the max it could still be a sign and trade to get him the 6th year, right?

[NineOhTheRino]

this would have to be a first. I cannot think of another team that lost it's best player to another team for less money. For some reason I think FA for JJ is less about money and more about getting out of Atlanta.

Edited June 28, 2010 by NineOhTheRino

[Guest]

I saw a new AJC post from MC. After reading this I had to double-take:

Hawks co-owner Michael Gearon Jr. declined to comment on Johnson's impending free agency.

Hawks general manager Rick Sund also declined comment. Through a spokesman, Sund referred to his earlier statements that the Hawks would do “everything we can” to re-sign Johnson.

Junior declined comment?!?!? Did he FINALLY learn something? Hallelujah!

[HawksBalla]

So who do we want from the Knicks? Are #1 picks any worth from them considering how far out they might be? I don't want Lee because we have Smoove, but maybe Lee could be flipped to a third team and we could get help at a position of need.

[thecampster]

I should have caught what he was talking about with the David Lee reference. Still, it helped me realize that even if JJ signs for less than the max it could still be a sign and trade to get him the 6th year, right?

Again. I said possible, not probable. JJ holds all the cards and every major free agency player has roster drops that can be signed back. In any normal year this would be out of the question. But with the total number of free agents and teams/players considering this a make or break year, all things are on the table. It may not happen with JJ but take the top 10 free agents. One of them will be involved in a double snt, mark it down. JJ is a prime candidate because his old team is going to be over the cap. Once the major players in free agency commit all their green to the few top level players out there, the leftover players (ie Duhon for ex) will only be allowed to sign for vet minimums/exception deals. It is in their best interest to play nice in the double snt scenario as it will net them more money.

The bottom line is there is no excuse not to get value for Johnson. He is going to a team under the cap, capable of adding additional talent as long as money is right, that will have non tenured/willing players to work with.

Answering your question, yes....the incentive to sign and trade is for JJ to get his 6th year which is much more money up front. JJ is most likely to sign with the team that can get him 6 years and that requires a sign and trade.

Edited June 28, 2010 by thecampster

[thecampster]

I hate free agency just because I have to read things like this. I want you to go and find me all the dbl SNTs you can over the last five years. None is what you will find and none is what will happen again next season.

Lee BTW is not going anywhere. NY has his birds rights and he will be in their lineup right beside Amare if that is how Amare plays it.

and you can not honestly believe Lee is staying, can you? You can not sign your own player retro to other signings and get the credits under the cap.

If they sign Amare and Johnson first, then sign Lee...Lee can only be signed for the difference between the cap and their new salaries. Your own players take precedence....it does not matter what order they sign in. If Lee is offered 10 million by another squad (very likely) and NY matches...it counts against the cap pre signing of JJ and Amare thereby limiting what you can offer those 2 players. They have to deal with Lee first if that's the case. Lee will command as much as 60% a max deal in this market and they wont' be able to bring him and others back at that price. The Knicks are hamstrung by Eddy Curry's contract.

[Buzzard]

I should have caught what he was talking about with the David Lee reference. Still, it helped me realize that even if JJ signs for less than the max it could still be a sign and trade to get him the 6th year, right?

It would take a dbl SNT to get Lee here. Those things do not happen. 1st off both players have to agree to the other teams offer, seconly both teams have to agree to the offer, and 3rd but not last or least, other teams are making both players really good offers. The odds are slim and none...leaning towards none very heavily.

Lee will stay in NY. they could have offered him a minimum qualifier but worked out a better one year deal to keep him and his agent happy. NY wants him and they can and will match all offers once they sign two max players. Just like Wade will stay in Miami once they sign one max player.

My bad NY only has 30 mill in cap and cannot sign Lee and two others to a max

Edited June 28, 2010 by Buzzard

[thecampster]

It would take a dbl SNT to get Lee here. Those things do not happen. 1st off both players have to agree to the other teams offer, seconly both teams have to agree to the offer, and 3rd but not last or least, other teams are making both players really good offers. The odds are slim and none...leaning towards none very heavily.

Lee will stay in NY. they could have offered him a minimum qualifier but worked out a better one year deal to keep him and his agent happy. NY wants him and they can and will match all offers once they sign two max players. Just like Wade will stay in Miami once they sign one max player.

OH no they can't. The cap for this season is set at 57.7 million. They have currently under contract $18,637, 293 (source: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm) That leaves them $39 million. Lee's contract has to come off the books first. Even if he signs 3rd, since they are under the cap, they must count Lee's salary under the cap and the new player salaries will have to fit under the cap. Assuming both JJ and Amare signed for 17 million each, that's $34 million. That would only leave them $5 million for Lee. Per NBA rules, you can go over the cap to sign your own player. But for accounting purposes, that players contract is counted before the signing of othe team's free agents.

Option 1: Lee signs a 1 year deal non qualifying offer. Highly unlikely, with the addition of 2 big name players, Lee's production will go down and negatively affect his value.

Option 2: Lee signs a multiyear extension for 9 million per season starting. If he does this, the accounting brings the team salary to 27.7 million, leaving 30 million to sign free agents. This leaves the Knicks with only 30 million to sign 2 big name free agents or about 15 million a piece and at only 5 years. Highly unlikely they get 2 players and this leaves them no one on the roster as only vet minimums can be signed after that.

Option 3: Lee signs a multiyear extension as above but to get the 2 players mentioned signed, the Knicks have to find a taker for Eddy Curry's one year salary of 11.3 million meaning they have to fork up probably 2 lottery protected firsts.

Option 4: The Knicks find a way to dump Curry on another team packaging their other talent and or double sign and trading their FA's.

Option 5: David Lee gets a 10 million dollar per year, 5 year offer to play alongside Lebron/Wade in Miami where there are no state income taxes. New York decides not to match to give themselves cap flexibility next year.

Option 6: The Knicks sign and trade David Lee to one of the teams they are stealing a free agent from, sign and trade Duhon to one of the teams they are stealing the other free agent from and add incentives for one of the other team to take Curry off their hands so they have enough money to sign Bosh to play along side Amare and JJ. If I were the Knicks and I could make this happen, this is where I'd be working towards.

Remember that a big expiring contract like Curry's will be important in the possible Carmelo sweepstakes next year.

[Buzzard]

No they can't

I fixed my post and you are right. They only have 30 mill or so and can only sign one max player

[thecampster]

I fixed my post and you are right. They only have 30 mill or so and can only sign one max player

no, totally cool. I'm by no means an expert on any of this but from everything I've heard, double SNT's could be used repeatedly this offseason. There are too many names and double snt is too helpful in cap manipulation right not to not be used. These players want that last year to get the bigger up front and the longer security going into labor troubles. It's a big deal. Plus most of the sites putting up cap numbers are not accurate as they are not listing rookie and RFA cap holds (like our cap hold for Chillz and the new rookie).

[NJHAWK]

The only team that would entertain giving JJ 6 years and $119 mill is a sign a trade are the teams that Bosh, Stoudemire, & James pass on.

James, Bosh, & Stoudemire are signing 5 year $92 mill deals.....not S&T 6 year $119 mill deals.

I would not be suprised at all to see Lebron sign a two or three year deal like he did with Clevland. That way he can hold all the cards and try to run the team like he did in Clevland and if they dont surround him with the pieces he wants he has the option to bolt. He seems to like all the attention free agency has given him even though he hasnt done anything to deserve it yet.

[Guest]

and you can not honestly believe Lee is staying, can you? You can not sign your own player retro to other signings and get the credits under the cap.

If they sign Amare and Johnson first, then sign Lee...Lee can only be signed for the difference between the cap and their new salaries. Your own players take precedence....it does not matter what order they sign in. If Lee is offered 10 million by another squad (very likely) and NY matches...it counts against the cap pre signing of JJ and Amare thereby limiting what you can offer those 2 players. They have to deal with Lee first if that's the case. Lee will command as much as 60% a max deal in this market and they wont' be able to bring him and others back at that price. The Knicks are hamstrung by Eddy Curry's contract.

Lee is not a restricted free agent.

[HAWKSFAN89]

Oh well, doesn't matter about playing for less. Just saw on ESPN that the Knicks plan to offer Joe a Max contract come July 1st.

Edited June 28, 2010 by HAWKSFAN89

[thecampster]

Lee is not a restricted free agent.

That is correct. Sorry.

On another note, I also mistated the Knicks cap situation. since they now have only 6 committed contracts, there is a 6 player rookie minimum cap hold in effect. It's a little less than 3 million. So technically speaking their current cap situation is 21.7 million, not 18.7 million. With each player signed, they get a reduction of the cap hold by 1 mimimum rookie contract. What that means is if they sign Amare first at 18 mil first year like they would be capable of doing, That would be a cap of 39.2 charge leaving them 18.5 million to sign. If they signed JJ for 16.5 first year that leaves them 2 million to sign new players. However if they signed Lee for 10 million first year, that still counts against the cap and would only leave them about 7 million for JJ.

Same song, different verse, because the players are signed in the same year and Lee's contract alone doesn't put them over the cap, it counts like any other player signing. They don't have enough money to sign all 3.

[NineOhTheRino]

I would like to see Atlanta put on a full court press to keep Joe. Make July 1st Joe Johnson Day. Have a Joe Jonson Day parade where the entire city can come out in support of our superstar.

[KB21]

So who do we want from the Knicks? Are #1 picks any worth from them considering how far out they might be? I don't want Lee because we have Smoove, but maybe Lee could be flipped to a third team and we could get help at a position of need.

Yes. As far as sign and trade deals go, the Knicks may be the best match for the Hawks. Why? Because even if the Knicks sign Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudemire, they are going to have a lot of trouble putting players around them. It is going to be a couple of years before they are a playoff team. There is no Steve Nash up there to make D'Antoni's system work either.

If Joe wants to go to New York, then Atlanta should ask for Wilson Chandler, three first round picks, and a trade exemption in a sign and trade deal.

[coachx]

If Sund gets nothing for JJ it will be the beginning of the end for him.

How ?

That is JJ's call......not Sund's.

[NineOhTheRino]

How ?

That is JJ's call......not Sund's.

Sund had an opportunity to trade him in the last year of his deal and didn't. For that he should be on the hot seat.