Fun Facts

[benhillboy]

* Sure, it's only 43 minutes worth of play, but substituting Marvin for Collins in the lineup amounts to the 9th best lineup in the league in terms of +/-. Take it with a grain.

* 5 and 4 in 15 effort-filled minutes for Powell. Uses his body well and has that old-school knack for being/ getting in good position down low on both ends of the court. All of the praise he got from past coaches/ teammates wasn't lip

service I suppose.

* Big Al AKA The Boss leading ALL centers (Yeah, Dwight, too) in PER (eye-popping 27.1) with 17-9-3 in 31 minutes, shooting a stupid 64% from the field

* Josh rated 14 in PER among PFs (20.7) with 15-10-4 in 34 minutes, a theft, and of course leading the league in blocks, shooting 51% and officially has a jumper that is not laughable/ depressing.

* We'll combine our least productive starters into 1 guy: Marvin Bibby, in 30 minutes, averages 19-8-5, shooting about .464.

* Other than shooting .93 from the line, Jamal is a step and a half behind last year. This is troubling to me, personally. I expext much more.

* Team is shooting the best in the league (.001 in front of Rondo and His Uncles.) A sparkling .79 from the line as a team, which the Thundercats would laugh at (88%...damn!)

Oh yeah, there's a 120-something meal tickets man here, right? Couldn't tell by watching him play. More of a good value, 60 mil second-option type of dude.

Jeff Teague and Josh Powell are the only players who average less points per shot than that guy. The 14th ranked SG in the league in terms of PER (17.7), who gets to the line only 5 times a game, where he shoots a paltry 78%. Prime age, monster contract. Should come out like gangbusters, huh? From last year with the same minutes (37): Points are down, FG % down, Steals down, FT% down, 3 pt percentage pathetic, assists up by .2 (whoo-hoo!). Unlike Jamal, who I expect to step it up, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Joe gets worse. Joe lovers insert denials, explanations, and apologies here ( ).

I cram to understand why so many people here fail to realize who actually leads this team: The two guys in the frontcourt and THEM ONLY (that was a fact, too)

The Pacers tonight. Smash them, please.

Let's Go Hawks.

Edited November 16, 2010 by benhillboy

[lethalweapon3]

LOL @ Marvin Bibby. I kinda like that guy!

Well done! I'm working on all my Joepologies, Joexplanations, and Joescuses. Might take a minute, though!

~lw3

[macdaddy]

When the offense is changed from iso-Joe to something else how could his nimbers not go down? That said, he better start showing up when it counts.

[Diesel]

I cram to understand why so many people here fail to realize who actually leads this team: The two guys in the frontcourt and THEM ONLY (that was a fact, too)

Let's Go Hawks.

Let's look closer at the facts. When opposing defenses play us, how many times are Josh and Al doubled?? How about Joe and Jamal? In the end of the loss to Utah, on our last good possession, did you notice that Joe was doubled, Horf was wide open with a wide open path to the rim and we passed it in to Horf and the only thing (best thing) that Utah could do was foul?

I know... You're saying that that proves your point that Horf is a beast and is great and is all that. OK.. Let's take Joe out of that equation. Replace him with Mo Evans. Nobody is doubling Mo. The lane is not open. Horf doesn't get a wide open look. Horf gets the ball 18 feet out and has to attempt a shot with a hand in his face. Rebound, game over.

You can't begin to talk up how great Smoove and Horf are until you remove them from the shade that Joe provides. Unlike other sidekicks, neither Horf or Smoove can create for themself. How many times do teams just give Smoove an open outside Jumper? Just imagine if Craw had that same freedom? Our frontcourt doesn't run anything. Our frontcourt benefits from having Joe, Bibby, and Crawford being dangerous threats outside. Those guys stretch defenses and that allows Horf and Smoove room to work. Why do you think we get Pimp slapped by Orlando? Orlando can afford to play Joe with doubles all night because they have Howard in the middle shutting down anything that Smoove or Horf want to do!!

[tremor]

Let's look closer at the facts. When opposing defenses play us, how many times are Josh and Al doubled?? How about Joe and Jamal? In the end of the loss to Utah, on our last good possession, did you notice that Joe was doubled, Horf was wide open with a wide open path to the rim and we passed it in to Horf and the only thing (best thing) that Utah could do was foul?

I know... You're saying that that proves your point that Horf is a beast and is great and is all that. OK.. Let's take Joe out of that equation. Replace him with Mo Evans. Nobody is doubling Mo. The lane is not open. Horf doesn't get a wide open look. Horf gets the ball 18 feet out and has to attempt a shot with a hand in his face. Rebound, game over.

You can't begin to talk up how great Smoove and Horf are until you remove them from the shade that Joe provides. Unlike other sidekicks, neither Horf or Smoove can create for themself. How many times do teams just give Smoove an open outside Jumper? Just imagine if Craw had that same freedom? Our frontcourt doesn't run anything. Our frontcourt benefits from having Joe, Bibby, and Crawford being dangerous threats outside. Those guys stretch defenses and that allows Horf and Smoove room to work. Why do you think we get Pimp slapped by Orlando? Orlando can afford to play Joe with doubles all night because they have Howard in the middle shutting down anything that Smoove or Horf want to do!!

I agree to some degree, although: Smoove and Horf, while don't create for themselves, create for each other. Not very often, not in crunch time, but still (Smoove averages 4 assists/game).

Contested 18ft jumper from Al a sure miss? I don't know, his jumper has been the most reliable Hawks weapon so far.

The biggest criticism targeted at Joe is that he's not efficient in offense. He misses wide open looks time after time and doesn't go to the FT line often. He already looks tired (it is a well known fact that the fresher JJ is the better he shoots) and lifeless that early in the season.

[exodus]

Let's look closer at the facts. When opposing defenses play us, how many times are Josh and Al doubled?? How about Joe and Jamal? In the end of the loss to Utah, on our last good possession, did you notice that Joe was doubled, Horf was wide open with a wide open path to the rim and we passed it in to Horf and the only thing (best thing) that Utah could do was foul?

I know... You're saying that that proves your point that Horf is a beast and is great and is all that. OK.. Let's take Joe out of that equation. Replace him with Mo Evans. Nobody is doubling Mo. The lane is not open. Horf doesn't get a wide open look. Horf gets the ball 18 feet out and has to attempt a shot with a hand in his face. Rebound, game over.

You can't begin to talk up how great Smoove and Horf are until you remove them from the shade that Joe provides. Unlike other sidekicks, neither Horf or Smoove can create for themself. How many times do teams just give Smoove an open outside Jumper? Just imagine if Craw had that same freedom? Our frontcourt doesn't run anything. Our frontcourt benefits from having Joe, Bibby, and Crawford being dangerous threats outside. Those guys stretch defenses and that allows Horf and Smoove room to work. Why do you think we get Pimp slapped by Orlando? Orlando can afford to play Joe with doubles all night because they have Howard in the middle shutting down anything that Smoove or Horf want to do!!

Exactly.

I would also add that looking for some statistical significance in this season's numbers is a bit if a reach. Smith's EFG% jumpers so far is 48%. His best season ever is 36%. Meanwhile Al has played by far the best of his entire career so far this year. That doesn't mean he was leading the team last year. You can't get there from here.

JJ started off the season in a shooting slump and was sick last game. He is shooting 28% from 3 on the season. Does anyone really think that will continue?

There is a reason teams were lining up to pay JJ big bucks last summer and it isn't because he was led by Smith and Horford. There is a reason he has been to 4 straight All-Star games.

[benhillboy]

The double-team excuse was old a few years ago but hey. New offense geared towards moving the ball and preventing the defense from focusing on Joe implemented, but hey. I've never seen fans of other "scorers" make excuses about their star being doubled as a reason for futility and drop-off, months after an unholy contract signing in your physical prime, but hey. Cool, that accounts for a minuscule drop-off in PPG. What about the other dozen stat categories and facets of a player's game that contribute to a high efficiency that would place the biggest winner in a historic contractual summer higher than middle-of-the-pack among his position, let alone every position?

[JJFAN4LF]

I think opposite with your view on Jamal and Joe. I expect Joe to get better, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the most we get out Jamal all season long.

Jamal has rarely (if ever) looked like he fits in with the offense. Joe on the other hand has played through the offense, but unfortunately.....just missed some shots (open ones that he usually makes).

I have no doubts that Joe is just in a shooting slump. Most of his misses are shots that I've seen him make in previous years. However, I do have doubts if Jamal will ever get it. He's still living in his own fantasy world of Woody Ball.

[exodus]

The double-team excuse was old a few years ago but hey. New offense geared towards moving the ball and preventing the defense from focusing on Joe implemented, but hey. I've never seen fans of other "scorers" make excuses about their star being doubled as a reason for futility and drop-off, months after an unholy contract signing in your physical prime, but hey. Cool, that accounts for a minuscule drop-off in PPG. What about the other dozen stat categories and facets of a player's game that contribute to a high efficiency that would place the biggest winner in a historic contractual summer higher than middle-of-the-pack among his position, let alone every position?

First of all nobody is using a double team as an excuse for JJ. You just made that up. The fact that JJ draws doubles is what makes it easier for Horford and Smith to score. Without JJ they would find it much tougher to score which is why it is a joke to say that JJ is being led by Smith or Horford.

Secondly JJ was 5th in PER among shooting guards last year behind Wade, Manu, Roy and Kobe. I would explain the concept of sample size to you in regards to this years stats but I realize that would be pointless. You either wouldn't understand it or you would just ignore it.

[benhillboy]

Getting a little touchy huh, ex? I didn't know your feelings were that strong for Mr. 120+. I apologize for stating the facts. (looking up what "sample size" means: learning something everyday lol)

[ATLSmith]

I just can't figure out if Marvin Bibby is a 1 or 3...

Yes, nothing informative here folks...

[exodus]

Getting a little touchy huh, ex? I didn't know your feelings were that strong for Mr. 120+. I apologize for stating the facts. (looking up what "sample size" means: learning something everyday lol)

Your idea of a fact is to pretend somebody said something, then argue against it. That isn't a fact, that is a strawman argument. You should look that up too.

This is your idea of arguing fact:

Benhillboy: 'You guys said Smith is the best foul shooter in NBA history when he is nowhere close'.

Us: Uhhh, nobody said Smith was the best foul shooter in NBA history.

Benhillboy: 'Sorry, just stating the facts. I didn't realize you cared for Smith so deeply'.

You might be able to fool yourself with that nonsense but you aren't fooling anyone else.

[exodus]

JJ was struggling badly during the Hawks 6-0 run beating bad teams but over the last 5 he is averaging 22 ppg shooting 52%. By the end of the year i would say his shooting percentage could easily be higher than in past years since he is getting better looks.

Edited November 16, 2010 by exodus

[Diesel]

The double-team excuse was old a few years ago but hey. New offense geared towards moving the ball and preventing the defense from focusing on Joe implemented, but hey. I've never seen fans of other "scorers" make excuses about their star being doubled as a reason for futility and drop-off, months after an unholy contract signing in your physical prime, but hey. Cool, that accounts for a minuscule drop-off in PPG. What about the other dozen stat categories and facets of a player's game that contribute to a high efficiency that would place the biggest winner in a historic contractual summer higher than middle-of-the-pack among his position, let alone every position?

The problem is that we say we have a new offense geared towards ball movement and less reliance on Joe... BUT NOBODY BELIEVES US. Teams still look at us and say "when pushed, they will go back to ISO JOE". Thus far, when pushed, we have gone back to ISO JOE. The bright spot in all this was against Utah, we did something different that should have worked. Horf was wide OPEN... So, you say it's an excuse that's old. I say, Watch a game. Al is not ever doubled. NOT Ever. When teams start to double Al and not JJ, that is the day that I say Al is the leader of our offense.

[Joker]

Let's look closer at the facts. When opposing defenses play us, how many times are Josh and Al doubled?? How about Joe and Jamal? In the end of the loss to Utah, on our last good possession, did you notice that Joe was doubled, Horf was wide open with a wide open path to the rim and we passed it in to Horf and the only thing (best thing) that Utah could do was foul?

I know... You're saying that that proves your point that Horf is a beast and is great and is all that. OK.. Let's take Joe out of that equation. Replace him with Mo Evans. Nobody is doubling Mo. The lane is not open. Horf doesn't get a wide open look. Horf gets the ball 18 feet out and has to attempt a shot with a hand in his face. Rebound, game over.

You can't begin to talk up how great Smoove and Horf are until you remove them from the shade that Joe provides. Unlike other sidekicks, neither Horf or Smoove can create for themself. How many times do teams just give Smoove an open outside Jumper? Just imagine if Craw had that same freedom? Our frontcourt doesn't run anything. Our frontcourt benefits from having Joe, Bibby, and Crawford being dangerous threats outside. Those guys stretch defenses and that allows Horf and Smoove room to work. Why do you think we get Pimp slapped by Orlando? Orlando can afford to play Joe with doubles all night because they have Howard in the middle shutting down anything that Smoove or Horf want to do!!

They can double Joe when Bibby is useless unless he's shooting, if Jamal is in, Joe is not doubled but Jamal gives up a lot of points on defense.

[Atlantaholic]

JJ definitely should be more efficient this year. He is getting consistently good looks (not many tonight though) at the basket, and should be able to not get tired as quickly since he doesn't have to go one on one as much, I'm pretty confident he will turn it around. As for Jamal it is probable that this is the best he will play all year. Aside from last year, this is exactly who Jamal Crawford is, a high volume low percentage scorer who plays 0 defense.

[Chickenstanley]

"Getting a little touchy huh, ex?"

_________________________

LOL.

Here's Exodus: (interpreted --not quoted)

"Your *sample size* is too small and renders your argument meaningless. But since my available *sample size* is also too small ---(and not to mention - doesn't support my opinion) --- you're still definitely wrong because my argument uses a larger *sample size* ---- but even though my *sample size* is totally unrelated ---- it's still must be used because it's a larger *sample size" --- and thus serves to unconditionally dispute the claim that you never made in the first place".

CS

[exodus]

"Getting a little touchy huh, ex?"

_________________________

LOL.

Here's Exodus: (interpreted --not quoted)

"Your *sample size* is too small and renders your argument meaningless. But since my available *sample size* is also too small ---(and not to mention - doesn't support my opinion) --- you're still definitely wrong because my argument uses a larger *sample size* ---- but even though my *sample size* is totally unrelated ---- it's still must be used because it's a larger *sample size" --- and thus serves to unconditionally dispute the claim that you never made in the first place".

CS

Your ad hominem posts are pretty lame. If you are going to go that route, rather than make a coherent argument, you need to at least do a better job. That post was just childish.

Edited November 17, 2010 by exodus

[AHF]

"Getting a little touchy huh, ex?"

_________________________

LOL.

Here's Exodus: (interpreted --not quoted)

"Your *sample size* is too small and renders your argument meaningless. But since my available *sample size* is also too small ---(and not to mention - doesn't support my opinion) --- you're still definitely wrong because my argument uses a larger *sample size* ---- but even though my *sample size* is totally unrelated ---- it's still must be used because it's a larger *sample size" --- and thus serves to unconditionally dispute the claim that you never made in the first place".

CS

???

Exodus (and others such as D) pointed out that the double teams JJ draws are valuable and open up the game for Smith and Horford.

Benhilly then acted like exodus was arguing that JJ's bad shooting in the first half dozen games this season was excused by the fact that he had to deal with double teams.

Exodus rightly called him on making a straw man argument.

On the sample size issue, anyone using 5 or 6 games to try to prove a trend when you have years of available data has some serious problems with statistically insignificant sample size and selection bias. Those same problems don't apply if you are using several seasons of data. That is a simple Statistics 101 item.

Not sure where you are trying to go with that post.

[Chickenstanley]

"Your ad hominem posts are pretty lame. If you are going to go that route, rather than make a coherent argument, you need to at least do a better job. That post was just childish."

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

No Exodus. Your are being played for a fool and you do't realize it.

I knew, from my very post on this topic, that there was no possible way for you (or anyone else) to make any conclusive argument to refute the "commonly held opinion " that I originally cast doubt upon.

Please grasp the following:

My original post had to do with the *playoff* performance of the Hawks. And only the *playoff* performance of the Hawks team as a whole. It did not, in any way, constitute any claim about regular season performance --team wise or individually for Smoove. In fact, I did not even express an opinion other than the subject --- other than--- that I did not care to be on the same side of the boat with "forum heavyweights".

At that point, both you and AHF decided to "feed on this newcomer".

Understand..... My sample size was 7 games.

Understand ... That your ONLY AVAILABLE sample size to attempt to dispute this claim (that I never made in the first place) was 11 games.

Understand.... That I have always UNDERSTOOD that both of the above sample sizes were statistically insignificant. This is where I had you!

Understand... That in order to refute or cast doubt on a claim, you must use some body of evidence that is *directly* related to the claim that you are attempting to refute. You can't simply substitute unrelated evidence at your convenience. Talk about Strawman !

Understand ... that although you believe your opinion to be correct, there is no body of evidence that conclusively supports your opinion, because of many factors, including the fact that there is no available sample-size large enough to be statistically relevant to support EITHER side.

CS