5 years later....

[Admin]

Wait, you're telling me that This Guy wasn't a good pick at #11? I could have sworn he was the PG of the future and that one of his 5 teams would have been smart enough to realize he is a beast!

Where have all the Acie fan's gone?

I definitely thought he was going to be a good one, but then again I rarely think any of the Hawks picks are going to be duds due to my eternal optimism, which I suppose comes from following a team that hasn't been a threat to win it all since I was about 10 years old.

The thing with Acie is that there weren't any sure fire can't miss PG's at 11 and even Stuckey was a mystery who most thought would be a tall scoring point guard at best ... and I suppose that's what he's become. Aaron Brooks has been much better than expected but no way could anyone have predicted he'd be as good as he is.

[Guest]

I definitely thought he was going to be a good one, but then again I rarely think any of the Hawks picks are going to be duds due to my eternal optimism, which I suppose comes from following a team that hasn't been a threat to win it all since I was about 10 years old.

The thing with Acie is that there weren't any sure fire can't miss PG's at 11 and even Stuckey was a mystery who most thought would be a tall scoring point guard at best ... and I suppose that's what he's become. Aaron Brooks has been much better than expected but no way could anyone have predicted he'd be as good as he is.

Acie never gave us any evidence to suggest he would be better than a bottom 10% player. After the 1st year this was evident, I would find it acceptable to believe Acie could be good before his 1st year. However, thats the only time I could find that acceptable. He has been one of the worst point guard in this league for a while now.

[Diesel]

The reality is that Woody was starting Al at the 4 and rarely played him at the 3. Many of us were complaining during Al's last season that they should move Al to the 3 and Smith to the 4. If Al had stayed it is only logical to assume that Woody would have continued to view him as a 4.

Shelden started the season at the 4 the year after Al left so i fail to see how Al was traded to make room for Marvin.

I felt that Al was much better on both ends at the 3. I think that his big problem throughout his career is that coaches continue to play him at the 4 when he is better off at the 3. I don't know what they are doing with him in Denver.

You just argued that Al was moved so that Smoove could play the 4. Then you argue that Al was moved to make room for Shelden.

Here's something better.

Shelden was drafted because there was uncertainty about Al and we were thin in the front court. I don't think BK and Woody ever saw eye to eye on how to play Shelden. Moreover, I don't think it was to make room for shelden that Al was traded. Al was traded because people had begun to wonder why did we pass up Chris Paul for Marvin.

[Diesel]

That says it all right there. If Harrington were a "good" piece then at some point in his career he would have stuck with a team but he hasn't because he's good offensively but he's also bad defensively and he's a ball hog as well. He's a guy that you can trade to another team for an overpriced damaged player just like him, but he'll never be someone that a team will build around.

overpriced damaged player...

You mean like Jamal Crawford or Mike Dunleavy Jr. I think teams often saw a way to trade Al for other players that fit their need better. In the case of Craw, Al asked to be traded and sat out until they came up with the Craw deal. However, they had a good thing with Al there. Playoffs and all.

""We went through a lot to get him back, obtaining a trade exception and going through a lot," Carlisle said. "And that's tough, but one of the realities of trades is you've got to give up good players to get good players and we think the guys we traded for really fit with what we're trying to do and be about as a franchise."

Carlisle said the way Dunleavy and Murphy can both shoot from outside and rebound made them attractive targets, but sounded particularly excited about obtaining Diogu _ a 6-foot-8, 255-pound second-year forward who was getting 13 minutes per game with the Warriors.

"One of the key factors was the ability to get Diogu in the deal because he's a young prospect that could be a very good Eastern Conference rotation player for us," Carlisle said. "The opportunity to get him made the deal happen.""

[exodus]

You just argued that Al was moved so that Smoove could play the 4. .

No i didn't. That is just you making stuff up. I said that i thought Smith should have played the 4 when Al was here. I never said Al was moved to make room for Smith at the 4.

Shelden was drafted because there was uncertainty about Al and we were thin in the front court. I don't think BK and Woody ever saw eye to eye on how to play Shelden.

There was no uncertaity about Al and it wasn't a question of Woody and BK seeing eye to eye. Shelden was the starting 4 in the beginning of the 2006 season.

Predictably it became apparent that he wasn't as good at the 4 as Smith, who might make the All-Star team at the 4 this season.

Edited November 18, 2010 by exodus

[Diesel]

No i didn't. That is just you making stuff up. I said that i thought Smith should have played the 4 when Al was here. I never said Al was moved to make room for Smith at the 4.

There was no uncertaity about Al and it wasn't a question of Woody and BK seeing eye to eye. Shelden was the starting 4 in the beginning of the 2006 season.

Predictably it became apparent that he wasn't as good at the 4 as Smith, who might make the All-Star team at the 4 this season.

How soon we forget. It was Al's contract summer. We had no bigs. None. Had Al walked, Zaza would have been our starting C with Smoove as our starting 4. Shelden was drafted in case Al walked.

"1. What significant moves were made during the offseason?

There were three main pieces to the Hawks offseason: 1) The NBA Draft. The Hawks addressed inside needs by drafting Shelden Williams from Duke fifth overall and Solomon Jones from South Florida. Both players plan to help defensively, and should at the very least take up some room inside, something the Hawks did not have last season. 2) The departure of Al Harrington. Harrington didn’t want to be in Atlanta, and there was no reason for him to stay. He didn’t fit in with the team last year as far as playing style is concerned, and he was way too overpriced for the team to try to keep him this year. Atlanta tends to be a pretty financially tight team, so paying Al Harrington $6-8 mil a year just wasn’t worth it for the results he provided. 3) Additions in free agency. The Hawks addressed both of their major needs in the offseason, signing Speedy Claxton and Lorenzen Wright. They finally have some dept at both the point guard and center positions, something they haven’t had for years. "

[exodus]

How soon we forget. It was Al's contract summer. We had no bigs. None. Had Al walked, Zaza would have been our starting C with Smoove as our starting 4. Shelden was drafted in case Al walked.

LOL First you say we had no bigs and the next you say we had Zaza at C and Smith at the 4. You sound confused.

Shelden wasn't drafted in case Al walked. That is ridiculous. He was drafted be our starting 4 which he was at the start of his rookie season. You are just making up nonsense to try to justify your Marvin hate.

Your own post proves my point.

Harrington didn’t want to be in Atlanta, and there was no reason for him to stay. He didn’t fit in with the team last year as far as playing style is concerned, and he was way too overpriced for the team to try to keep him this year.

So where is the uncertainty? Looks to me like your post clearly states the Hawks had no intention of resigning Harrington.

[AHF]

Harrington never does anything for chemistry or defense on his teams. He is a solid role-player. His teams are 191-294 since leaving Indy.

[capstone21]

Harrington never does anything for chemistry or defense on his teams. He is a solid role-player. His teams are 191-294 since leaving Indy.

Harrington is a volume scorer but that is basically it. He is not a good rebounder nor does he play defense. Losing him did not hurt us in the least. It opened up playing time for our younger guys such as SMith who flourished.

[Diesel]

Harrington is a volume scorer but that is basically it. He is not a good rebounder nor does he play defense. Losing him did not hurt us in the least. It opened up playing time for our younger guys such as SMith who flourished.

Smoove minutes per game in 2005 = 32.0

Smoove minutes per game in 2010 = 34.9

So Al's leaving "opened up playing time for Smith"?

2.9 mpg difference made all the difference?

In fact, the most that Smoove has played since Al left was 35.1 mpg which is 3.1 mpg more than he did while Al was here?

This is the misthinking that surrounds the Al trade. Smoove's minutes didn't change significantly. Marvin's did. And Marvin hasn't done anything significantly better with 30+ minutes than he did with 24 minutes. But we can keep living under the delusion that somehow Smoove got more minutes and that allowed him to get better... Why introduce the truth when we can live out this dream?

[Atlantaholic]

Smoove minutes per game in 2005 = 32.0

Smoove minutes per game in 2010 = 34.9

So Al's leaving "opened up playing time for Smith"?

2.9 mpg difference made all the difference?

In fact, the most that Smoove has played since Al left was 35.1 mpg which is 3.1 mpg more than he did while Al was here?

This is the misthinking that surrounds the Al trade. Smoove's minutes didn't change significantly. Marvin's did. And Marvin hasn't done anything significantly better with 30+ minutes than he did with 24 minutes. But we can keep living under the delusion that somehow Smoove got more minutes and that allowed him to get better... Why introduce the truth when we can live out this dream?

He got more minutes at PF... which was most definitely crucial for his development. Anyone who has watched us the last five years can tell you that Al leaving allowed both Smith and Marvin to be in a better position to develop. Smith blossomed Marvin learned to shoot three pointers that one year and then became the same Marvin. Overall the net effect of letting Al go was positive, or at the very least it is a push.

[Plainview1981]

Was trading Harrington the right thing to do?

5 years ago, we traded Al Harrington to "make" room for Marvin Williams. I remember many fans calling it addition by subtraction... Harrington was a skilled player who lacked defense but was a goto guy on offense. He played the inside and Joe played the outside.

Well, I have been watching from afar and this dude still hasn't started to show signs that he can't play anymore. He still shows up and gets his 17/~6. Moreover, he's still an inside/outside threat. In Woody's ISO regime, he had one of his best seasons. Equally important, Marvin has not become James Worthy with a Jumpshot, nor has he developed his offense to a point where he's making an impact. In fact, Marvin has never had a better season than Harrington Statistically and he has never meant more to his team than Harrington has. On top of that, Marvin makes 2 more Million than Harrington. If we eliminate the draft reprecution and just focus on the team dynamic.... Did we make a mistake trading Harrington?

I Haven't thought of him much since he left ATL.

[Plainview1981]

That says it all right there. If Harrington were a "good" piece then at some point in his career he would have stuck with a team but he hasn't because he's good offensively but he's also bad defensively and he's a ball hog as well. He's a guy that you can trade to another team for an overpriced damaged player just like him, but he'll never be someone that a team will build around.

There will always be guys like Harrington and Jim Jackson. Guys that put up good numbers, but really nobody can see them as important pieces to winning. Bad defense and poor attitudes are two big culprits. I'll never have nostalgia for the Al Harrington days.. I can tell you that.

I'd love to have an upgrade over Marvin, but a ball hog journeyman like Al isn't the answer. We need a guy that can bring up on offense in a timely fashion.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Hotlanta1981

[Diesel]

He got more minutes at PF... which was most definitely crucial for his development. Anyone who has watched us the last five years can tell you that Al leaving allowed both Smith and Marvin to be in a better position to develop. Smith blossomed Marvin learned to shoot three pointers that one year and then became the same Marvin. Overall the net effect of letting Al go was positive, or at the very least it is a push.

Al and Smoove are tweeners. Al could have easily moved over to Sf. I think he actually perfers that to playing PF. Remember, Al started with us playing next to AWalker. Walker played PF. The only person who benefited directly from Al leaving was Marvin and Marvin has done NOTHING worth talking about but managed to siphon another contract out of the Hawks and make himself untradable. He's our discount Eddy Curry.

There will always be guys like Harrington and Jim Jackson. Guys that put up good numbers, but really nobody can see them as important pieces to winning. Bad defense and poor attitudes are two big culprits. I'll never have nostalgia for the Al Harrington days.. I can tell you that.

I'd love to have an upgrade over Marvin, but a ball hog journeyman like Al isn't the answer. We need a guy that can bring up on offense in a timely fashion.

What I miss about Al is having somebody in the low post with low post offense. I think Joe wishes he had that now. We have both Horf and Smoove, one will be an allstar this year, but offensively neither has a goto move in the low post. We can't work an inside out game (that works so well) with guys who can't be a threat inside.

[Dsinner]

Al and Smoove are tweeners. Al could have easily moved over to Sf. I think he actually perfers that to playing PF. Remember, Al started with us playing next to AWalker. Walker played PF. The only person who benefited directly from Al leaving was Marvin and Marvin has done NOTHING worth talking about but managed to siphon another contract out of the Hawks and make himself untradable. He's our discount Eddy Curry.

What I miss about Al is having somebody in the low post with low post offense. I think Joe wishes he had that now. We have both Horf and Smoove, one will be an allstar this year, but offensively neither has a goto move in the low post. We can't work an inside out game (that works so well) with guys who can't be a threat inside.

If Al was our starting 3 both Horf and Josh would foul out of every game.

[Guest]

5 Years ago I did not think we would have made it to the playoffs for the past 3 consecutive seasons, Al was and still is a chucker, a black whole on offense and no defense....I didn't even remember him being on the team until now. Our offense so far this season has not been a problem...it's our perimeter defense.