Marvin = Good off Bench. Awful Starter

[frankthetank966]

It's amazing how a players value can change drastically depending on where they are slotted into the lineup. I have been saying this for years, and will continue to stress it. Marvin WIlliams should not be a starter on this team. His ideal role is off the bench earning 20-25 mins a game. He excels coming off the bench because he can provide the team with a decent outside shot and decent outside game and strong defense. However, due to the fact that he is not great in any particular area he should not be a starter. Tonight was a great example of how he can change the game coming off the bench. He can "attack" a team by spreading out the floor and go in the opposite direction of where the Hawks have been attacking. For instance, if the Hawks have been making outside shots bring Marv in to go to the hole vis versa. Either way he excels on the bench and thats where he should be.

[Joker]

Marvin motivated in his job>>> Marvin not motivated in his job. On or off the bench, it doesn't change the results for Marvin. When Smith plays at SF, he's worst. It's best he plays PF. No matter what Marvin does Smith shouldn't be at the 3.

[TheTruth]

Here is the quandary: Marvin Williams seems to be much better suited as a backup. However, for us to do that, we have to start Collins at C and Smoove at SF. Collins is a terrible starting C while Smoove is much better playing PF than SF.

It may work against some teams, but I doubt it works long term against the upper echelon teams most nights.

[niremetal]

I saw this thread coming from about 5 light years away, even though it was 1 game against 1 team (with the NBA's best center) without our 6th man.

[TMacUnstoppable]

It amaze me how ASG thought that Marvin was worth 40 million he cant defend, cant hit the 3 (why does he stand in the corner on ever play like he's Reggie Miller or something) he needs to come off the bench and learn how to knock down that open shot. at 6'8 240 u think he would post up some more be he rather that jumpshots.

[Diesel]

Here is the quandary: Marvin Williams seems to be much better suited as a backup. However, for us to do that, we have to start Collins at C and Smoove at SF. Collins is a terrible starting C while Smoove is much better playing PF than SF.

It may work against some teams, but I doubt it works long term against the upper echelon teams most nights.

I disagree.

I think there's better motivation for Marvin to come off the bench. I think he takes starting forgranted and gives very little effort as a starter. I think coming off the bench makes him appreciate those minutes. Also, Collins is not that bad. He's not Howard. He's not Bynum. But he's a very crafty, physical guy who plays decent positional defense. He made Howard work and even became an enforcer last night. He's to defense what Zaza is to rebounding. (i.e. a guy who will work hard at it and make the other team work hard to stop him).

Smoove at Sf is either or. Smoove doesn't want to be a full time PF.

I think the real question is what advantage does it give Horf to play PF?

Last night, Horf didn't get any fouls right?

[Jody23]

I disagree.

I think there's better motivation for Marvin to come off the bench. I think he takes starting forgranted and gives very little effort as a starter. I think coming off the bench makes him appreciate those minutes. Also, Collins is not that bad. He's not Howard. He's not Bynum. But he's a very crafty, physical guy who plays decent positional defense. He made Howard work and even became an enforcer last night. He's to defense what Zaza is to rebounding. (i.e. a guy who will work hard at it and make the other team work hard to stop him).

Smoove at Sf is either or. Smoove doesn't want to be a full time PF.

I think the real question is what advantage does it give Horf to play PF?

Last night, Horf didn't get any fouls right?

For all the crap Collins gets about being a "terrible" choice as a starting center, people seem to forget he was a starting center on a team that went to the NBA finals. While he may not be the ideal choice for some, the guy knows how play within his abilities.

[Diesel]

For all the crap Collins gets about being a "terrible" choice as a starting center, people seem to forget he was a starting center on a team that went to the NBA finals. While he may not be the ideal choice for some, the guy knows how play within his abilities.

Agreed. However again I say, the real benefit is with Horf.

[Jody23]

Agreed. However again I say, the real benefit is with Horf.

Without question. There's a legitimate reason Horf made noise about playing the 4 this offseason. From what I've seen, he's clearly the best power forward on this team and he knows it. No offense to Smoove, but Horford is just better suited for that position.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Jody23

[Diesel]

Without question. There's a legitimate reason Horf made noise about playing the 4 this offseason. From what I've seen, he's clearly the best power forward on this team and he knows it. No offense to Smoove, but Horford is just better suited for that position.

Right now we have nice versatility at the PF position, however, I think Horf can be an allstar PF. He has even improved his high post shooting. He's PF all day. We complain about C and putting Collins at C. However, the truth is that once we get a good C (better than Zaza or Jason) we will be a really hard to beat team. Still, with just Jason and Zaza, I think we are moving towards being one of the best in the East. LD's system has to take hold.

I feel that by playoff time, with everybody healthy and the kinks worked out, we should be interesting.

[macdaddy]

Right now we have nice versatility at the PF position, however, I think Horf can be an allstar PF. He has even improved his high post shooting. He's PF all day. We complain about C and putting Collins at C. However, the truth is that once we get a good C (better than Zaza or Jason) we will be a really hard to beat team. Still, with just Jason and Zaza, I think we are moving towards being one of the best in the East. LD's system has to take hold.

I feel that by playoff time, with everybody healthy and the kinks worked out, we should be interesting.

I agree. We are 18-12, 4th in the East, Second in the division, we've beaten Orlando twice. With Joe Johnson and Jamal Crawford both missing significant time. And still people want to say LD is no good. If you're judging Woody on the wins he racked up in his 6th season at least give LD some credit for having this team in good shape after 3 months on the job.

[frosgrim]

I agree. We are 18-12, 4th in the East, Second in the division, we've beaten Orlando twice. With Joe Johnson and Jamal Crawford both missing significant time. And still people want to say LD is no good. If you're judging Woody on the wins he racked up in his 6th season at least give LD some credit for having this team in good shape after 3 months on the job.

Drew is not the problem. The ASG are. Give Drew a better balanced roster and this team could be scary good.

[tremor]

Collins would give solid 20 mins if he had better hands. To often either he doesn't catches pass or rebound or gets stripped.

[TheTruth]

I disagree.

I think there's better motivation for Marvin to come off the bench. I think he takes starting forgranted and gives very little effort as a starter. I think coming off the bench makes him appreciate those minutes. Also, Collins is not that bad. He's not Howard. He's not Bynum. But he's a very crafty, physical guy who plays decent positional defense. He made Howard work and even became an enforcer last night. He's to defense what Zaza is to rebounding. (i.e. a guy who will work hard at it and make the other team work hard to stop him).

Smoove at Sf is either or. Smoove doesn't want to be a full time PF.

I think the real question is what advantage does it give Horf to play PF?

Last night, Horf didn't get any fouls right?

But Diesel, that doesn't address my main points at all. Yes, moving Marvin to the bench is good for all the reasons you stated concerning Marvin himself. That part is hard to argue. But Collins is what he is. For a starting C, he doesn't do much of anything besides play good positional D...he doesn't rebound well, contributes nothing on offense, and is too slow to play good enough overall defense. For us, outside of Horford, he is the best starting quality C we got, but that doesn't change the fact that he just isn't that good. Yes, he's better than many alternatives, but he's still average at best.

Yes, it moves Horford to PF where he can beast, but it also moves Smoove to SF...a position he doesn't defend as well and plays less efficiently. Those things also are hard to argue, and that--and that alone--was my point.

[High5]

I'd rather move Josh to the bench in the few games where Collins has any business playing extended minutes.

[tremor]

I'd rather move Josh to the bench in the few games where Collins has any business playing extended minutes.

Collins ain't shot blocker or good rebounder. Smoove did great job with help defense and cleaning the glass last night.

[Diesel]

But Diesel, that doesn't address my main points at all. Yes, moving Marvin to the bench is good for all the reasons you stated concerning Marvin himself. That part is hard to argue. But Collins is what he is. For a starting C, he doesn't do much of anything besides play good positional D...he doesn't rebound well, contributes nothing on offense, and is too slow to play good enough overall defense. For us, outside of Horford, he is the best starting quality C we got, but that doesn't change the fact that he just isn't that good. Yes, he's better than many alternatives, but he's still average at best.

Yes, it moves Horford to PF where he can beast, but it also moves Smoove to SF...a position he doesn't defend as well and plays less efficiently. Those things also are hard to argue, and that--and that alone--was my point.

Well let's see...

Moves Marvin to the bench so that he can have more motivation and play harder coming out... CHECK.

Moves Al to PF where he can play better.... Check.

Puts Collins at C which is not a great move but gives us 10 fouls between he and Zaza 15 if you put in the poetic stylings of Etan.... Check.

Puts Smoove at Sf where he feels more comfortable but his defense is not what we desire... Check.

Dieselputer says...

If Marvin is playing better off the bench and Smoove and Marvin are more comfortable with their roles... then we can hide the ineffective defense of Smoove in the Team defensive scheme.

Also, we haven't seen this system work as a whole.

When Jamal comes back and when Joe is 100%... Damn.

[jy23]

Everyone keeps talking about Collins being horrible on offense and not being a good rebounder but to be honest I couldn't care less.......Putting Horf at the 4 is really what matters and with Collins' good positional d most times he's not in position or really even focused on getting the board, and really isn't that what our 2 young horses are there for anyway? Good positional d is at least going to take one man out of the offensive rebounding equation and opens it up for other guys to crash......give me Collins at center move Marv to the bench and I think we may have a team

[TheTruth]

Well let's see...

Moves Marvin to the bench so that he can have more motivation and play harder coming out... CHECK.

Moves Al to PF where he can play better.... Check.

Puts Collins at C which is not a great move but gives us 10 fouls between he and Zaza 15 if you put in the poetic stylings of Etan.... Check.

Puts Smoove at Sf where he feels more comfortable but his defense is not what we desire... Check.

Dieselputer says...

If Marvin is playing better off the bench and Smoove and Marvin are more comfortable with their roles... then we can hide the ineffective defense of Smoove in the Team defensive scheme.

Also, we haven't seen this system work as a whole.

When Jamal comes back and when Joe is 100%... Damn.

Diesel, I will say it again since you didn't understand me the first time.

1) I agree with you that Marvin to the bench, as opposed to being a starting SF in this league, is probably the best for him at this point.

2) If given the choice between Smoove and Marvin at SF, I would choose Smoove...but especially if we can get a better C than Collins in here.

3) Moving Al to PF is what we have all been wanting for some time.

4) Having Collins start at C full time against the better teams is not ideal. He offers very little as a starting C. If we plan on going with the PG/JJ/Smoove/Horford/C lineup full time, then we have to get a better C than the inadequate Collins.

Let's see how it all works out.

[Joker]

It's foolish if you really think Smoove is a SF. I don't mind it v. Orlando but v. most teams, it's a negative, not a positive.