Can the Hawks win a title with JJ as the #1 guy?

[Diesel]

Diesel, no one denies that great players need help. The question was if JJ can be the best player on a title team, not whether he needs more help. Let me ask you two questions:

- In which team, of all those you listed, would JJ be the best player?

- Name 2 players who are worse than JJ and would transform Atlanta into instant title contenders if they came here? And I don't mean in addition to Horford and Smith, but instead of them. Because as I said, JJ can be the best player on a title team if the team has 4 other all star/all defensive nba type of players like the 04 pistons had.

Before we get into your questions.. I want you to understand my premise.

It's not that I'm saying JJ needs a superstar on his team. I'm saying that these guys had a superstar.

My premise is that before we go evaluating JJ, at least give him a team with a full skillset.

He needs a low post scorer.

He needs a low post defender.

He needs a real PG.

When those things are in place, then let's start talking about evaluation.

This team is built wrong.

We have several flaws.

It looks like we go on the court every night with:

2 soft PFs, 2 OGs, and a Sf who doesn't care.

LD made 1 change.

He exchanged the SF who don't care for a low level C who don't score or rebound much... and we started beating good teams?

That means we had: 2 soft Pfs, 2 OGs, and a C who doesn't rebound or score well.. and we beat a top 3 team.

What's going to happen if Joe just gets a balanced team???

Now, we have this Lockout Draft going on on this board.

How many of us are building teams with no balance?

How many of us are putting teams together with poor post play, poor rebounding, poor Floor generalship?

I would think nobody has.

So if we as fans value Balance... How is it that we can look at Joe and say he has what he needs to take this team to the championship?

If we as fans value Balance... How can we say that it's fair to project Joe as a first option on a championship team.

Truly, non of us has ever seen Joe on a balanced team.

He already is our scoring and assist Leader for the last 6 years. And that is with a team with no balance and no players who can create for themselves save Crawford and Flip.

This is my premise. We're talking about Joe as a #1 option on a championship team... can I at least see Joe on a balanced team before I think about that?

[TomSelleck]

Until JJ is GM and he can give himself a balanced team to play with... I don't think you can put that on him simply because of Money.

How many balanced teams were Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Grant Hill, Jason Richardson, Jerry Stackhouse, and every other pretty good but not great wing player of the last ten years? Joe Johnson has been in the same situation the rest of the league has been in.

[MaceCase]

How many balanced teams were Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Grant Hill, Jason Richardson, Jerry Stackhouse, and every other pretty good but not great wing player of the last ten years? Joe Johnson has been in the same situation the rest of the league has been in.

Joe had and plays with two 2nd team All Defense players, a 3rd team All NBA player and 2 time All Star, 6th Man of The Year winner and secondary 20 points per game scorer yet woe is him. Get him a 20 and 10 lost post threat and a 10 assist a game PG and then he will really blossom into that 28 point a game superstar that he is!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I disagree with your reasoning behind the double teams though CTC. Teams know that if they focus on taking JJ and Craw away, the rest of our team can't beat them. Neither of them has great PER but that is just how I see it. Teams know that if they can slow JJ and Craw with doubles that Horf, Marv, and Smoove aren't good enough to beat them.

He knows this. He's watched this team enough to know why JJ gets doubled. And it seems as if every time he lights someone up, the "JJ Rules" are applied the next go around.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

How many balanced teams were Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Grant Hill, Jason Richardson, Jerry Stackhouse, and every other pretty good but not great wing player of the last ten years? Joe Johnson has been in the same situation the rest of the league has been in.

If that's the case, why are people complaining so much about JJ? If people know this is what the league is about, why all of the complaints?

- Arenas was considered to be a superstar for 2 or 3 years, with a legit #2 in Jamison and a good #3 in Butler. But once again it's about balance. That team could've used more of a low post scorer at the 4 to compliment Arenas, than a jumpshooting 4. Because when you have a jumpshooting 4, if he has an off night, it hurts the team all around. And we're not even going to talk about Arenas, who when he was off, continued to jack up absolutely horrible shots instead of actually playing PG.

- When Redd was a premier scorer in the league, the number #2 guy was Mo Williams. Bogut was nowhere near as a player back then, as he is now.

- As much flack as T-Mac has received over the years, people need to keep in mind that the best players he played with in Orlando were Drew Gooden and Darrell Armstrong. Grant Hill was hurt too much to form that 1 - 2 punch. It's too bad that he and Yao couldn't get the type of chemistry needed to take the Rockets to that next level. And T-Mac shouldn't be in this group. T-Mac for about a 6 - 7 year stretch was a superstar.

- The same goes with Vince Carter. In Toronto, the best player he played alongside was his cousin T-Mac and Antonio Davis. It looked like he had a shot in Jersey playing alongside Kidd. But even though Jefferson was a good #3 guy, what they needed was a low post scorer that was the #3 guy. When Nenad Kristic is your best low post player, that isn't going to work. Vince, by most accounts, was considered to be a superstar for 3 - 4 years as well.

- Grant Hill for about a 5 year stretch, was a top 10 player in the league. People forget how really good that guy was. Grant essentially was a mini- Lebron in the mid - late 90s. He played with guys like Allan Houston for one year I think, an aging Joe Dumars, and Jerry Stackhouse at the very end of his Detroit career, before he start getting hurt all the time. Never played with a low post scorer worth a damn. And we all know about his career in Orlando. With as much as he stayed hurt, it's amazing that he's only missed like 3 games in 3 years in Phoenix, and hasn't been significantly injured once.

- Stackhouse started to emerge as a good player right as Hill was about to exit Detroit. But if Iverson was the poster child for a "volume shooter", Stack was his little brother. Stack's one good playoff type team was in 2002 in which they made the East Semifinals. That team laid the foundation for what would be the Detroit title team in 2 years, with Ben Wallace already in place, and Stack being traded for Richard Hamilton.

- Richardson had 2 or 3 All-Star caliber years in Golden St, even if he didn't make the team. He played with Baron Davis, a pretty good scoring/passing PG. Of course, it's Golden St though. They needed that post player.

So when you look at all of this, even guys greater than JJ couldn't get it done because of the balance of the team. Most of those guys would've gone further, had they had a #2 guy who could score down low. After Shaq left, Kobe struggled just like these guys to get it done, until he got the legit #2 who was a low post scorer. It's amazing to see that the 18 of the last 20 NBA titles were won by 5 guys.

- Jordan with 6

- Shaq with 4

- Duncan with 4

- Olajuwon with 2

- Kobe with 2 ( without Shaq, of course )

The Big 3 in Boston, and the anomaly in Detroit, were the only 2 teams to break though during this time. And both of those were elite defensive teams.

So I guess that's the answer to this whole question. Knowing that JJ isn't nowhere near the player listed among those 5 guys, he could possibly be the #1 guy on a team that won the title. . . if that team was an ELITE defensive team that had enough competent offensive players that could get it done. Getting to the Finals with a more balanced team is one thing. Winning the whole dang thing is another. Maybe a squad that looked like this could get there, if they played up to their defensive abilities. Here are some possible stats too.

PG - Miller ( 12 ppg - 7 asst )

G - Johnson ( 21 ppg - 4 rebs - 3 asst )

F - Iguodala ( 15 ppg - 6 rebs - 5 asst )

PF - Smith ( 15 ppg - 9 rebs )

C - Bogut ( 14 ppg - 10 rebs )

With this squad JJ is still going to be the #1 scoring option on offense, but the guys playing defense around him are going to be much better. And you'd have enough offensive firepower to possibly get it done, especially if the bench contained 2 shooters from 3 point range. If the Hawks were to do the "Detroit model", this is what it would look like. That team would have 4 shot creators, 3 good passers, a guy who could score in the low block in Bogut ( even if the injury has limited his offensive game somewhat ) and a guy in Smith that could possibly freelance a little more and hopefully play more at the rim.

Edited June 10, 2011 by northcyde

[Atlantaholic]

Yeah, JJ averages 18 ppg on 29% from three because he gets doubled. Poor, poor JJ. If all those other hall of famers had gotten doubled they would have all struggled to score 20 points on a consistant basis.

:boohoo:

I love how all of those Miami fans use that argument while making excuses for Wade.... oh wait, no they don't. That's because Wade put up a PER of 30 against us on a team with Joel Anthony as the second most productive player. People don't understand that the fact you have to EXPLAIN why JJ can't play well is THE reason he isn't a franchise superstar. "boohoo, JJ is playing with a bad hand/knee/finger... Boohoo, JJ gets doubled, Boohoo, JJ doesn't have a supporting cast (which isn't even close to true btw)" Meanwhile Nowitski is about to win a championship with Jason Terry as the second best player on his team and a TORN freaking tendon in his hand. The only thing JJ has in common even remotely with the upper echelon of players is his contract. Every other individual and team statistic that exists shows he is not even in the same galaxy as these guys. All these arguments are such BS it's pretty amazing you guys even believe it. JJ isn't good because he doesn't have enough talent around him??? than how in the hell do you explain his best scoring season coming when we had a 28 win team? He can't be effective because he gets doubled... How do you explain EVERY OTHER superstar in the league who gets doubled, some considerably more aggressively than JJ, still put up superstar numbers. You can't. You won't even address these points you will just continue repeating the same things that are proven to make no sense whatsoever.

[dlpin]

Before we get into your questions.. I want you to understand my premise.

It's not that I'm saying JJ needs a superstar on his team. I'm saying that these guys had a superstar.

My premise is that before we go evaluating JJ, at least give him a team with a full skillset.

He needs a low post scorer.

He needs a low post defender.

He needs a real PG.

But this is what I am talking about. IF JJ is to be the best player on the team, he'd need a team that is good, all star or all defensive level 1-5. Which is rare (and why detroit was so good). Superstars don't need that much.

[AHF]

This is an argument, but it is a misleading argument.

I can easily say...

What about Malone? What about Dirk? What about Charles? What about Nash? What about Iverson? What about Robinson (pre Duncan)?

If you have ever taken a symbolic logic class you will recognize you are making a flawed argument here.

My position was: Nearly all Championship teams are led by an MVP quality player therefore if you are planning to win a title you should plan on having an MVP quality player as your best player and it isn't reasonable to expect a title to be won by a player who would be the 3rd best player on most title teams (and lower than third best on a number of those teams) .

Your counter above is: Not all MVP quality players win championships therefore this makes your argument misleading.

Those are two different statements.

You can say that: All NFL players are male.

That statement is not any less true simply because not all males are NFL players.

The bottomline rule is that NBA Championships are won by teams where the best player is an MVP quality player. I don't think any NBA championship has ever been won by a team whose best player was no better than JJ - thus a 0% occurrence of that happening historically. That doesn't mean JJ isn't valuable just like it didn't mean that Paul Pierce wasn't valuable before KG arrived, but expecting a team where JJ (or PP for that matter) is better than every other player on the roster to win a title is not supported by any team in at least the last 30 years whereas the percentage of Champions with MVP quality players is roughly 90% (and the Pistons squads were led by point guards who were better than JJ in Isiah Thomas and Chauncey Billups). As evidence for rules of thumb go, 90% >> 0%.

Edited June 10, 2011 by AHF

[Diesel]

Joe had and plays with two 2nd team All Defense players, a 3rd team All NBA player and 2 time All Star, 6th Man of The Year winner and secondary 20 points per game scorer yet woe is him. Get him a 20 and 10 lost post threat and a 10 assist a game PG and then he will really blossom into that 28 point a game superstar that he is!

Does Joe play with a consistent Low post scorer?

Does Joe play with a PG who can get more than 4 apg?

Doe Joe play with a consistent low post defender?

In my best Foxworthy Voice...

If your PF shoots 2 threes per game and shoots 33% from three... You might be on an unbalanced team.

If your C shoots 56% FG% for the Season but 40% in the playoffs... You might be on an unbalanced team.

If your PG gives up more points than he scores (Bibby)... You might be on an unbalanced team.

If your PG looks to you and say run the offense and I will go out and be a SG... You might be on an unbalanced Team.

If your Sf spends more time watching Sponge Bob than in the practice facility... You might be on an unbalanced Team.

If the only time your SF cares about playing hard is when his position has been taking away or when he's playing in front of his come crowd... You might be on an unbalanced team.

If your C cannot score consistently in the low post... You might be on an unbalanced Team.

If the other team can double you all game long.... You are on an unbalanced team.

I was watching the Mavs=Heat Series.. They have yet to double team Dirk....

Kidd is a PG who can get the ball to the open man.

[Diesel]

Yeah, JJ averages 18 ppg on 29% from three because he gets doubled. Poor, poor JJ. If all those other hall of famers had gotten doubled they would have all struggled to score 20 points on a consistant basis.

:boohoo:

I love how all of those Miami fans use that argument while making excuses for Wade.... oh wait, no they don't. That's because Wade put up a PER of 30 against us on a team with Joel Anthony as the second most productive player. People don't understand that the fact you have to EXPLAIN why JJ can't play well is THE reason he isn't a franchise superstar. "boohoo, JJ is playing with a bad hand/knee/finger... Boohoo, JJ gets doubled, Boohoo, JJ doesn't have a supporting cast (which isn't even close to true btw)" Meanwhile Nowitski is about to win a championship with Jason Terry as the second best player on his team and a TORN freaking tendon in his hand. The only thing JJ has in common even remotely with the upper echelon of players is his contract. Every other individual and team statistic that exists shows he is not even in the same galaxy as these guys. All these arguments are such BS it's pretty amazing you guys even believe it. JJ isn't good because he doesn't have enough talent around him??? than how in the hell do you explain his best scoring season coming when we had a 28 win team? He can't be effective because he gets doubled... How do you explain EVERY OTHER superstar in the league who gets doubled, some considerably more aggressively than JJ, still put up superstar numbers. You can't. You won't even address these points you will just continue repeating the same things that are proven to make no sense whatsoever.

I missed the part where Joel Anthony shot 154 3 pters on the season?

I don't think I have ever seen a Home Crowd Saying in Unison NO whenever Anthony went to shoot the ball.

Moreover, it's not about the superstars. It's about the balance. What does Dallas Lack in a skillset?

Post defense.

Post offense

Long range Shoot?

Floor Management? Generalship??

Defensive Wings?

Wings that can score?

Bench Production?

What is flawed about Dallas?? They have every skillset that is needed to win. It's not Surprise. Dirk didn't just hoist these guys up... If he had the power to hoist anybody up to a championship, he would have won several by now. 5 teams 51 championships should tell you that there's nothing easy about winning. Everything has to be right.

Your boy wade Has not made it to the 2nd round since Shaq Left. Wonder what that's about?? Maybe there was a Balance problem.

Shaq/Kobe losing to Detroit should tell you that Balance is everything. Instead, we want to treat it as some anomaly and say this is one for the X files. Get Fox and Skully and tell them to investigate and they will tell you that Balance is everything. Not stars.

[MaceCase]

Clearly the ASG and both Sund and BK have failed to surround their superstar with a 20 and 10 All Defense big and a 18 and 10 All NBA PG, for this reason Joe has been wasting away his MVP caliber years and prime just trying to keep the talent ridden Hawks relevant.

[Diesel]

Clearly the ASG and both Sund and BK have failed to surround their superstar with a 20 and 10 All Defense big and a 18 and 10 All NBA PG, for this reason Joe has been wasting away his MVP caliber years and prime just trying to keep the talent ridden Hawks relevant.

Nobody said that. This team has accolades but no balance.

""It's going to be a very, very intense game after what happened in Atlanta," he said. "He don't want to see me," he said of Horford. "I watched him play in Florida, and I've seen him play a few years in Atlanta. We've got two different games, and we'll see how it plays out tomorrow." Horford was vocal when Shawne and Marvin Williams got into it in their last meeting, and we'd leave Stoudemire active unless we get bad news on Wednesday."

Horford said he took Stoudemire's barbs personally, but generally was dismissive.

“He’s a talker," Horford said before Wednesday's game. "He’s going to talk, you know what I’m saying? All I do is bring my game to the court. That’s what I will do tonight.”

Stoudemire had seemed to question Horford’s toughness, declaring that Horford “doesn’t want to see me," but Horford seemed more amused than offended.

“I don’t understand what he means by I don’t want to see him,” Horford said. “Like we are supposed to be scared of him or something. Ain’t nobody scared of nobody. We are all grown men.”

Stoudemire has since offered some tough talk about Horford, and there were words exchanged between Felton and Horford late in the game after the Knicks point guard fouled Atlanta's all-star centre. Felton was called for a technical foul, a few minutes after Horford got one for complaining he was fouled by Stoudemire while making a jumper.

"It happens in the game of basketball. Elbows thrown, attitudes, tempers getting flared, so it happens," Felton said. "It's all about basketball, everybody being competitive."

Gallinari also was whistled for a tech for grabbing Bibby's foot as he was on the floor after getting fouled.

New York hit three three-pointers, two by rookie Landry Fields, in the first six minutes of the second half to build a double-digit lead, and the Knicks were never challenged from there, even when Atlanta tried to make a run.

"Any time we did that, they hit a three or hit a big basket and got a little demoralizing," Horford said. "We stayed with it. We just didn't have enough tonight."

Really?? This is what you think when you see Allstar by Al's name? He's a paper All star. Just like most of our team. We look good on paper but on the court, you don't necessarily get what you thought you would.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

North there is no need for you to be so obtuse and try to focus in on only one aspect of what I said. No PER is not the end all be all but be real with yourself, you are continuing to compare JJ with Hall of Fame players, I don't even need PER to tell you they are better than him, your own common sense should tell you that. Put JJ on each of those teams and again, he's not the 1st option.

I didn't bring up PER, you did. And I'm not comparing JJ to Hall of Fame players and how they played. I'm comparing their situations.

This continued nonsense about JJ receiving double teams....sigh....At what point will you realize that the double is not because teams fear JJ it's because they know it is a sound defensive strategy against him. The man simply doesn't have the ability to consistently split them and his awareness is so low and decision making so poor that he rather hit an open Josh 20 feet from the basket than a cutting Marvin. The man doesn't get doubled because he's God but rather because he can't beat it like nearly 98% of the other stars out there.

LMAO . . since when has Marvin ever cut toward the basket? Marvin stays glued to the corner, hoping someone will pass him the ball. He doesn't even go to the lane to rebound, let alone cut to the basket. Now you're just making up stuff. JJ is a 5 time all-star. He's a guy that kills people one on one. So to prevent that, teams double him to take the ball out of his hands and make others beat them. Deng gets killed by JJ in Game 1, Chicago starts doubling. By Game 3, Barkley is talking about how the Hawks never cut to the basket or to open spaces. JJ normally leads the team in assists. Why? Because he's the main guy that gathers enough attention toward him so that he can make the pass to the open man. And it's been like that for 6 years.

Fact is, JJ has had very good teammates, the team's success and record has actually coincided more with their improvements, not his. You want to go ahead and credit him with 80% of the playoff wins? What? Jamal was literally putting up Michael Jordan numbers the entire Orlando series off the bench and in lesser minutes in both wins and losses yet you only correlate the win to JJ because he got 20. In the Chicago series JJ had one of the most efficient games in NBA history (read: not something to be repeated) but guess what, Jamal went off too. In game 5 JJ was the leading scorer so I guess that's the only reason why the Hawks won, nothing to do with Josh going for a near triple double or even Horf pouring in 20 points.

Even in the game that you cite, it was JJ's huge 1st half that got us that lead. Smith and Horford played well in that game, especially in the 2nd half, and contributed to the win. Jamal and JJ won the Orlando series with their scoring ability. Either way you slice it, it was Joe Johnson that was a major part in every win we had this postseason. ( 6 - 0 when he scored 20+ points ). And that's his job . . to play as well as he can so that the team can win. Fortunately for us, he does have the ability to play at a high level at times. And he had 2 highly efficient games in the Chicago series. ( Games 1 & 4 )

You just want to go ahead and set all of these conditions and move the goalposts for what type of teammates Joe needs to be successful, wow. Just ask for the moon too while you're at it since Joe needs all of that to be successful but then it's funny because when Joe did have all of those things in his teammates.....he was the 4th option. It's sad really, this guy is getting paid and treated like a superstar yet even you are admitting that the team absolutely needs players better than him to be successful...... In what world is this considered logical reasoning for keeping someone?

No sir. No moving of goalposts. Just stating what JJ may need around him in order for HIM to maximize all of his abilities. People constantly complain about ISO ball. Well, the best way to alleviate that, is to get a PG who can run the team and find open people. If Teague becomes that, it will help this offense tremendously and should get JJ a lot more easier shots. JJ is already a successful player ( 5-time All-Star ). But in order for the team to get to that next level, we need the right skillset of players to make the team, and him a better player.

If we don't trade Smith or Horford for that skillset, one of them needs to develop the skillset that we need. Which means that one of those guys need to play on the inside about 70% of the time. A floor general and a low post scorer changes everything around here.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

But this is what I am talking about. IF JJ is to be the best player on the team, he'd need a team that is good, all star or all defensive level 1-5. Which is rare (and why detroit was so good). Superstars don't need that much.

Yes they do.

Iverson needed an elite defensive team around him, anchored by one of the games all-time best shot blockers, and a very good perimeter defender in Aaron McKie, and even he couldn't beat the Lakers but once.

Kobe needed a very good post scorer and an elite perimeter defender, along with a decent center and a versatile 6th man forward. Before that, the Lakers were a team just like us.

It's like I listed in a post earlier this morning. Guys like T-Mac, Grant Hill, Vince Carter and Gilbert Arenas were all considered to be superstars at one point in their careers. And as that superstar, none of them reached the Finals, because they lacked some of the key elements championship teams need to get to that next level. If you're not a lights out defensive team, you better be a damn good and efficient offensive team with multiple scorers who can get it done.

[AHF]

Guys like T-Mac, Grant Hill, Vince Carter and Gilbert Arenas were all considered to be superstars at one point in their careers.

Zero MVPs makes zero titles not that surprising. I haven't done the research but I doubt those guys even finished as a runner-up in an MVP vote.

[dlpin]

Yes they do.

Iverson needed an elite defensive team around him, anchored by one of the games all-time best shot blockers, and a very good perimeter defender in Aaron McKie, and even he couldn't beat the Lakers but once.

Kobe needed a very good post scorer and an elite perimeter defender, along with a decent center and a versatile 6th man forward. Before that, the Lakers were a team just like us.

It's like I listed in a post earlier this morning. Guys like T-Mac, Grant Hill, Vince Carter and Gilbert Arenas were all considered to be superstars at one point in their careers. And as that superstar, none of them reached the Finals, because they lacked some of the key elements championship teams need to get to that next level. If you're not a lights out defensive team, you better be a damn good and efficient offensive team with multiple scorers who can get it done.

Huh? Are you really going to argue that superstars need as much help as JJ would need to win a championship? Would those 6ers teams with JJ instead of Iverson make the finals? Would those lakers teams with JJ instead of Kobe win two titles? Not to mention that if JJ was playing with Gasol, JJ wouldn't be the best player on the team anymore.

Also, to recap, here's what Diesel said:

My premise is that before we go evaluating JJ, at least give him a team with a full skillset.

He needs a low post scorer.

He needs a low post defender.

He needs a real PG.

Not just "help," but those specific skill sets. Who was the real PG in those lakers teams? Was Rondo a "real pg" when the celtics won the title? The only championship teams to have significantly better point guards than who JJ has played with are the pistons and the spurs. Rondo now is better, but sophomore rondo wasn't. Fisher isn't. 37 year old Payton wasn't. As for low post scorer and defender, the teams that had that had them as the best player on the team (shaq, duncan, hakeem).

As for the examples you mentioned, Carter and Arenas were never superstars (0 1st team all nba selections for both of them) and T-Mac and Hill were unlucky in getting hurt during their primes.

Again, no one denies that superstars need help. But players who aren't superstars need even more help. But let's end the diversion. Please construct a team that would satisfy the two following conditions: 1- it would be a favorite to win the championship and 2- JJ would be the best player on it.

Really?? This is what you think when you see Allstar by Al's name? He's a paper All star. Just like most of our team. We look good on paper but on the court, you don't necessarily get what you thought you would.

Name one low post player who is better than Horford but worse than JJ that would make the hawks a contender?

Edited June 10, 2011 by dlpin

[Diesel]

Also, to recap, here's what Diesel said:

Not just "help," but those specific skill sets. Who was the real PG in those lakers teams? Was Rondo a "real pg" when the celtics won the title? The only championship teams to have significantly better point guards than who JJ has played with are the pistons and the spurs. Rondo now is better, but sophomore rondo wasn't. Fisher isn't. 37 year old Payton wasn't. As for low post scorer and defender, the teams that had that had them as the best player on the team (shaq, duncan, hakeem).

Not only was Rondo a real PG, and led the team in assists, all of the big three could pass.

The Lakers run Phil Jackson's triangle offense. That offense doesn't use a Point guard. It has a "push Guard".. nobody is the general on the triangle offense. The offense is about movement. That's why the Triangle offense failed in Dallas with Jason Kidd, Mashburn, and Jackson. No structure. Now

Now Look again at the Lakers. One of the best frontcourts in the game. How do we compare? Look at the Celtics... Not Just KG and Pierce.. but Perkins was a key to that team... How do we compare?

As for the examples you mentioned, Carter and Arenas were never superstars (0 1st team all nba selections for both of them) and T-Mac and Hill were unlucky in getting hurt during their primes.

Again, no one denies that superstars need help. But players who aren't superstars need even more help. But let's end the diversion. Please construct a team that would satisfy the two following conditions: 1- it would be a favorite to win the championship and 2- JJ would be the best player on it.

If you replaced Rip Halmilton with JJ on that Detroit Piston Team.. don't they still win? Isn't JJ the best player on that team?

Name one low post player who is better than Horford but worse than JJ that would make the hawks a contender?

Kendrick Perkins. Brook Lopez. Andrew Bogut, Joakim Noah, When do you want me to stop?

The truth is.. when you're talking about Horf the C, in a series... He's not that good. Horf is made of paper stats. He's good enough to get 19/10 because the league is weak and he can score against weak competition... especially when he's the kick out on Joe or Jamal or Bibby's play. However, when teams focus on Horf, what does he do?

Look at his playoffs. He went from being a 55.7% shooter to being a 42.3% shooter this year.

Yr 1 .499 to .472

Yr 2 .525 to .424

Yr 3 .551 to .523

Yr 4 ..557 to .423

These are Horfs regular season to Playoffs numbers. Every year, he dropped. Some years very significantly.

First year = Boston

Second Year = Miami and Cleveland.

Third Year = Milwaukee (without Bogut) and Orlando

FourthYear = Orlando and Chicago

How many other Centers go from being over 50% sometimes 55% shooting on the year to under 45% shooting as easily as Horf?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Huh? Are you really going to argue that superstars need as much help as JJ would need to win a championship? Would those 6ers teams with JJ instead of Iverson make the finals? Would those lakers teams with JJ instead of Kobe win two titles? Not to mention that if JJ was playing with Gasol, JJ wouldn't be the best player on the team anymore.

JJ and Gasol would be about equal if they played with each other. What did Gasol ever do when he was the main guy in Memphis? He didn't even win a playoff game. Both JJ and Pau could alternate being the #1.

Could a team of . .

PG - Fisher

G - Johnson

F - Odom

F - Gasol

C - Bynum

. . win an NBA title 2 years ago? I don't know, but that's a damn good team, and an upgrade over anything JJ has ever played with. I know JJ could still put up 20 ppg - 4 rebs - 4 or more assists on that squad though. JJ couldn't will the team to win like Kobe can, but guys like Pau, Bynum and Artest would get more chances to make plays, mainly because JJ will willingly pass the ball to them. And JJ would have enough moments for that team to definitely make him a contender.

Also, to recap, here's what Diesel said:

Not just "help," but those specific skill sets. Who was the real PG in those lakers teams? Was Rondo a "real pg" when the celtics won the title? The only championship teams to have significantly better point guards than who JJ has played with are the pistons and the spurs. Rondo now is better, but sophomore rondo wasn't. Fisher isn't. 37 year old Payton wasn't. As for low post scorer and defender, the teams that had that had them as the best player on the team (shaq, duncan, hakeem).

Why overlook the fact that when Kobe didn't have a legit #2 beside him, that the Lakers struggled big time, despite the efforts of Kobe? They were trying to win games with Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, and Luke Walton taking critical shots. Why do you think Kobe literally threatened to not exercise his player option and become a free agent in 2008? The dude needed help. And he got it.

Fisher was the PG in the same mold that Ron Harper was the PG for Jordan. He was a guy who could defend the position, while making timely shots when Kobe passed him the ball. Gasol was the legit #2 guy that he needed in order to keep him from having to shoot 25 times a game for the Lakers to win. Heck, the Lakers could throw out a frontline of 7-0 ( Bynum ). . 7-0 ( Gasol ) . . and 6-10 ( Odom ) if they wanted to.

Yes, Rondo was the "real PG" when the Celtics won the title. He was a solid, playmaking PG that averaged almost 7 assists in the playoffs that year. His role was to run the offense, and play defense. He had 21 pts - 7 rebs - 8 asst - 6 stls in the closeout game vs the Lakers that year.

As for the examples you mentioned, Carter and Arenas were never superstars (0 1st team all nba selections for both of them) and T-Mac and Hill were unlucky in getting hurt during their primes.

Again, no one denies that superstars need help. But players who aren't superstars need even more help. But let's end the diversion. Please construct a team that would satisfy the two following conditions: 1- it would be a favorite to win the championship and 2- JJ would be the best player on it.

Name one low post player who is better than Horford but worse than JJ that would make the hawks a contender?

Arenas had 2 seasons in which he averaged 25 points - 5 rebounds - 6 assists. He was a 3rd teamer ONLY because he played on a weaker team than Chauncey Billups and Steve Nash.

The year Carter made 2nd team all-NBA, Iverson was the MVP that aveaged 31 ppg, and Kidd got one of those popularity votes as a true PG ( 17 ppg - 10 asst - 6 rebs - 41% FG ), posting good numbers but not 1st team worthy. Not when Vince averaged close to 28 points - 6 rebounds - 4 assists - 46% FG

You're still not understanding what Diesel and I are talking about, when it comes to balance. The problem isn't with Horford's skills as a player. The problem is that we need SOMEONE to play in the paint the majority of the time on offense. And it would be real nice if that player could create his own shot and score down on the block. There are players less talented than Al or Josh, that may be a better fit for the team, simply because they play in the paint more. If Horford ( or Smith ) made this adjustment to their games, and could be efficient scorers/defenders in the lane, the team would be much better off.

I see now we're about to get into a pissing contest over whether some of the guys I name, are better than JJ. Switch out Noah with Horford, and we become a far better defensive and rebounding team, even if we did lose a little offense. The same thing would happen if we switched out Horford for Bynum or possibly even Bogut.

PG - Teague

G - JJ

F - Marvin

F - Smith

C - Bynum

That's a better squad than what we threw at people this season, but you still see where the potential problems are.

- Teague would have to develop into at least a consistent scoring and passing PG who could continue to defend fairly well

- Smith would have to try his hardest to lay off the jumper, and play close to the rim

- Marvin would have to shoot better, especially when wide open.

It's a better fitting lineup all around, with Bynum getting the opportunity to become that low post scorer that we need. Could it win a title? Probably not. That team would need people currently on the team to step up and be more consistent, including JJ himself.

But it's funny how people were all giddy after we won Game 4 and tied the Chicago series 2 - 2. Folks were split 50/50 that we could beat the Bulls.

But now that the season is over, there's just no way we could've done anything, had we had a better mix of complimentary players here.

All Horford has to do, is play bigger and inside more, and be effective when he does it. Either he or Smith MUST do this, with the way this team is currently constructed.

[AHF]

I would bet a ton of money against any of these squads coming back to Atlanta with a ring:

Kirk/Teague

JJ/Crawford

Marvin/Damien Wilkins

Josh Smith/Josh Powell

Kendrick Perkins/Zaza/Jason Collins

Kirk/Teague

JJ/Crawford

Marvin/Damien Wilkins

Josh Smith/Josh Powell

Brook Lopez/Zaza/Jason Collins

Kirk/Teague

JJ/Crawford

Marvin/Damien Wilkins

Josh Smith/Josh Powell

Andrew Bogut/Zaza/Jason Collins

Kirk/Teague

JJ/Crawford

Marvin/Damien Wilkins

Josh Smith/Josh Powell

Joakim Noah/Zaza/Jason Collins

You really like any of those teams as NBA champions this season?

(On the Pistons teams that didn't have an MVP, Isiah Thomas >> JJ and Chauncey Billups > JJ but at least that is a credible argument unlike the other 29 of the last 30 years).

Edited June 10, 2011 by AHF

[Diesel]

I would bet a ton of money against any of these squads coming back to Atlanta with a ring:

Kirk/Teague

JJ/Crawford

Marvin/Damien Wilkins

Josh Smith/Josh Powell

Kendrick Perkins/Zaza/Jason Collins

Kirk/Teague

JJ/Crawford

Marvin/Damien Wilkins

Josh Smith/Josh Powell

Brook Lopez/Zaza/Jason Collins

Kirk/Teague

JJ/Crawford

Marvin/Damien Wilkins

Josh Smith/Josh Powell

Andrew Bogut/Zaza/Jason Collins

Kirk/Teague

JJ/Crawford

Marvin/Damien Wilkins

Josh Smith/Josh Powell

Joakim Noah/Zaza/Jason Collins

You really like any of those teams as NBA champions this season?

More than I do the same teams with Horf instead.

I really like the Bogut and the Lopez teams.

Think about what they bring.. not how much star power they have Think about our need. With Hinrich at the PG. That's big. Then there's our need for consistent points in the paint. Defense and Rebounding. With Bogut, we probably would have beaten Chicago and Miami.