Can the Hawks win a title with JJ as the #1 guy?

[Marvin24Williams]

Why is there even arguements in this thread? The answer is pretty damn clear. No way in hell will an NBA team win the championship with Joe Johnson as their best player.

Edited June 11, 2011 by WhassupHawks

[Diesel]

You guys talk about Joe as if he has done something special. FACT is the guys has never made it pass the second round as a Hawk. After all these years what has he accomplished? He's a mediocre player on a mediocre team. Any discussion that doesn't deem his tenure here as a failure is complete bs.

Let's see... Who can we say that about.

Dominique.

Smitty

Deke

Kukoc

Doc Rivers

Seeing that Smitty went on to get a ring and Deke went on to play in the championship game... It tells me that sometimes, it's about the team and not the individual.

[AHF]

Seeing that Smitty went on to get a ring and Deke went on to play in the championship game... It tells me that sometimes, it's about the team and not the individual.

Particularly since Smitty was a minor role player on a team with an MVP #1 and Deke was the #2 guy on his team with an MVP #1.

[Atlantaholic]

Well LBJ, Wade, and Bosh are having serious trouble defending those role players yet you think ours who were out played by CHIs are better? Jason Kidd frustrated the heck out Westbrook and he shot terrible. Barea had his way with Westbrook also. Marion is going toe to toe with Lebron and playing well. (could Marvin do that?). Crawford is Terry's equal?

2011 Playoffs

Terry: 17ppg 46%FG 44%3pt 2reb 3asst 1.2stl

Craw: 15ppg 39%FG 35%3pt 1.3reb 2.5asst 0.8stl

Terry isn't capable of Craw's huge games but his consistency blows Craw out of the water.

And yet you DO understand that if playoffs teams faced a Dallas team with JJ instead of Dirk they would be able to contain those role players more effectively. Not to mention a team like Dallas feeds off of the amazing plays Dirk makes consistently and the leadership that he demonstrates. Also the Hawks and Mavs faced no team in common in the entire playoffs, so statistical comparisons like this don't tell the story. Atlanta played the 1st and 3rd best defensive team in terms of DRTG in the NBA, while Dallas has played the 15th, 14th, 6th, and 5th best defenses respectively. The best defensive team they have played is Miami, and those role players weren't exactly lighting it up until that insane game 5. Oh, and Marion is not "shutting down" Lebron... Lebron is shutting down Lebron because he is a heartless loser who is folding and deferring to Wade now that the pressure is on HIM to deliver a championship.

But these arguments are completely pointless. 20 years from now every basketball fan will know who Dirk is and there won't be a soul outside of Hawks faithful who even remember the name Joe Johnson: A guy who had a good career and nothing more.

[99PROBL3MS]

I didn't know Dirk dribbles the ball for Barea and makes shots for him. There you go again putting words in someones mouth. I didn't say Marion was "shutting Lebron down".....you did. He is playing Lebron well whether you cost to about it. Barea and Terry are creating some shots for themselves etc. Why am I arguing when you think our guts are equal to theirs. I'm done. You can have it

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Dalllas supporting cast is not better than ours. Just no way. Horford and Josh are BOTH better than anyone on that team outside of Dirk. Crawford is Terry's equal. The only position where you could say they are better is at PG, and it's not like Jason Kidd is exactly stellar out there at 38. He shot like 36% on the season. If Dallas wins it will be with one of the worst supporting casts in NBA history. JJ most definitely would never be able to pull that off. If JJ was on that Dallas team it would take a TOP season from him for that team to crack 40 wins. If he played like he did this season that team wins around 30. If we build our team around Dirk and our Core - JJ we would be an elite Eastern Conference contender every season.

Question . . .

Weren't Smith and Horford better than anyone on the Chicago frontline as well? If the answer to that is YES, then what happened during the playoffs . . especially when it concerns Mr. Horford?

Having individual talent is great. You need that in this league. But you need the RIGHT kind of individual talent. Kyle Korver is a great shooter. But he can't create his own shot. So does that mean that a team can make Korver it's "go-to guy"? If not, doesn't the same apply to Horford and Smith?

Jamal has never been Terry's equal. Place a Jason Terry on the Hawks instead of Jamal Crawford, and we'd not only get better shooting, we'd get better PG play and defense, even though JT isn't a true point.

Dallas is just a beautifully constructed team

Superstar ( Dirk ) - CHECK

2nd scorer who can ball ( Terry ) - CHECK

playmaking/defensive PG ( Kidd ) - CHECK

defensive/rebounding center ( Chandler ) - CHECK

defensive SF ( Marion ) - CHECK

instant offense off the bench ( Barea ) - CHECK

3 point shooters ( Dirk, Terry, Kidd, Peja, Stevenson ) - CHECK

But maybe the most important part of the team, is that their "core" have been through many playoff wars. Kidd, Marion, Dirk, Terry, and Peja have all been through the rigors of the playoffs, and know what to expect and how to play in them. Experienced players who can still ball, but also understand how playoff basketball should be played. That's the reason why they're up 3 - 2 over the team full of all-stars.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And yet you DO understand that if playoffs teams faced a Dallas team with JJ instead of Dirk they would be able to contain those role players more effectively. Not to mention a team like Dallas feeds off of the amazing plays Dirk makes consistently and the leadership that he demonstrates. Also the Hawks and Mavs faced no team in common in the entire playoffs, so statistical comparisons like this don't tell the story. Atlanta played the 1st and 3rd best defensive team in terms of DRTG in the NBA, while Dallas has played the 15th, 14th, 6th, and 5th best defenses respectively. The best defensive team they have played is Miami, and those role players weren't exactly lighting it up until that insane game 5. Oh, and Marion is not "shutting down" Lebron... Lebron is shutting down Lebron because he is a heartless loser who is folding and deferring to Wade now that the pressure is on HIM to deliver a championship.

But these arguments are completely pointless. 20 years from now every basketball fan will know who Dirk is and there won't be a soul outside of Hawks faithful who even remember the name Joe Johnson: A guy who had a good career and nothing more.

Well heck man . . if that's the argument you're going to make, that applies to JJ as well in the playoffs.

In 2011, he faced the 1st ( Chicago ) and 3rd ( Orlando ) best defenses in the league

In 2010, he faced the the 2nd ( Milwaukee ) and 3rd ( Orlando ) best defenses in the league

In 2009, he faced the 3rd ( Cleveland ) and 11th ( Miami ) bese defenses in the league

In 2008, he faced the top defense in the league ( Boston )

So he's lost in the playoffs to teams that had an average defensive ranking of #2 and had an average regular season win total of 63 wins.

Does JJ get graded on the curve or get the benefit of the doubt, because the team that knocked us out each of the last 4 years was no less than the 3rd best defensive team in the league? Or better yet, what would JJ's numbers look like if he faced teams ranked below #5 in the league defensively.

(( thinking to myself )) . . so you're telling me that Dirk hasn't faced a defense that was in the top 3 in the league in 4 playoff series this season . . but JJ has faced a TOP 3 defense in 6 of the 7 postseason series he's ever played in Atlanta?

Wow.

But no . . I'm not going to excuse JJ from playing like Jordan vs those teams. Forget having an easier road, he should be able to beat those top 3 defensive teams, regardless if his teammates show up or not.

Edited June 11, 2011 by northcyde

[TheNorthCydeRises]

But back to the question

Q: Can the Hawks win a championship with JJ as the #1 guy?

A: If you construct a team that has 2 other LEGIT All-Star caliber players ( preferably one that plays in the post and at PG ) . . or a great all-around defensive team that can rebound . . . YES.

[AHF]

But back to the question

Q: Can the Hawks win a championship with JJ as the #1 guy?

A: If you construct a team that has 2 other LEGIT All-Star caliber players ( preferably one that plays in the post and at PG ) . . or a great all-around defensive team that can rebound . . . YES.

JJ has a two-time AllStar teammate. Hard to imagine him being better than a better All-Star big man.

Since JJ isn't anywhere close to the best player on at least 29 of the past 30 champions, I will say it is a fool's errand to bank on that. Since he hasn't been as good as the best player on any of the past 30 champs, not a smart bet. The answer is an emphatic "no."

We need to get a better lead to add to JJ to be a contender.

[MaceCase]

Define LEGIT, North.  To me that means at least someone perennially selected to the game and looking at past All Star game rosters I'm having trouble identifying both a PG and Post player that would be legitimately lesser players to Joe. Well, at least none that are not in the twillight of their careers thus no longer capable of playing at their previous abilities.  Perhaps Rondo and Bosh but really that's all I can see as LEGIT All Star caliber players at PG and the Frontcourt that allow Joe to be top dog and even then I could see Bosh edging him out.

As for a great all around defensive team that rebounds....

Well that sounds like Chicago to the t. Would Chicago still be where there are if you replaced Rose with Joe? How bout Lebron's Cavs? Or Iverson's Sixers? Hell again, Dirk's Mavs?

The answer seems to be a resounding NO

......unless,

Heaven forbid

we are still on the "JJ not having certain "skillsets" players on his teams is what's kept him from being an elite player" argument.

[AHF]

Define LEGIT, North.  To me that means at least someone perennially selected to the game and looking at past All Star game rosters I'm having trouble identifying both a PG and Post player that would be legitimately lesser players to Joe. Well, at least none that are not in the twillight of their careers thus no longer capable of playing at their previous abilities.  Perhaps Rondo and Bosh but really that's all I can see as LEGIT All Star caliber players at PG and the Frontcourt that allow Joe to be top dog and even then I could see Bosh edging him out.

Bosh or Rondo would be the top player in that scenario. Is that team better than Miami though? It looks inferior.

Edited June 11, 2011 by AHF

[MaceCase]

Bosh would be the top player in that scenario.

Yea, I was figuring that also but was perhaps influenced by his negative publicity as the 3rd wheel on the Heat. He's still a mighty fine scorer and it seems that he's actually proven that he can play defense which was a main critique of him in Toronto.

Okay Chauncey and maybe Shaq wants to give it another go then.

[Diesel]

Question . . .

Weren't Smith and Horford better than anyone on the Chicago frontline as well? If the answer to that is YES, then what happened during the playoffs . . especially when it concerns Mr. Horford?

Having individual talent is great. You need that in this league. But you need the RIGHT kind of individual talent. Kyle Korver is a great shooter. But he can't create his own shot. So does that mean that a team can make Korver it's "go-to guy"? If not, doesn't the same apply to Horford and Smith?

Jamal has never been Terry's equal. Place a Jason Terry on the Hawks instead of Jamal Crawford, and we'd not only get better shooting, we'd get better PG play and defense, even though JT isn't a true point.

Dallas is just a beautifully constructed team

Superstar ( Dirk ) - CHECK

2nd scorer who can ball ( Terry ) - CHECK

playmaking/defensive PG ( Kidd ) - CHECK

defensive/rebounding center ( Chandler ) - CHECK

defensive SF ( Marion ) - CHECK

instant offense off the bench ( Barea ) - CHECK

3 point shooters ( Dirk, Terry, Kidd, Peja, Stevenson ) - CHECK

But maybe the most important part of the team, is that their "core" have been through many playoff wars. Kidd, Marion, Dirk, Terry, and Peja have all been through the rigors of the playoffs, and know what to expect and how to play in them. Experienced players who can still ball, but also understand how playoff basketball should be played. That's the reason why they're up 3 - 2 over the team full of all-stars.

The other night, I'm watching the Mavs play and I'm asking myself... why does nobody ever double Dirk. Then I figured it out.. Jason Kidd and a plethora of able scorers. It's not that these guys are great scorers or allstars any more. But these guys can score and Jason runs the offense. Their scoring is Bang-Bang.. Dirk is not holding the ball he catches and fires. Terry is not holding the ball, he catches and fires. Marion is not holding the ball, he catches and fires or drives. Bang-Bang. Kid is still good enough to get the ball to the open man, even if they double Kidd.

I realized at that point, that team is beauty. It's like Houston with Hakeem. Yes, we will have the rainbow three that went to the top of the American Airlines arena fed to us, but the truth is that it's a team with mature players who knew their role.

Do the Hawks know their role?

JJ has a two-time AllStar teammate. Hard to imagine him being better than a better All-Star big man.

Since JJ isn't anywhere close to the best player on at least 29 of the past 30 champions, I will say it is a fool's errand to bank on that. Since he hasn't been as good as the best player on any of the past 30 champs, not a smart bet. The answer is an emphatic "no."

We need to get a better lead to add to JJ to be a contender.

What has this two time allstar done in the playoffs except shoot 40 something percent.

Not just this yr.. every year except during his contract year.

Horf doesn't really show up in the playoffs.

We have learned to deal with no impact from Marvin. We have learned to deal with sometimes negative impact from Smoove. But when you take Horf and say he's not going to give you much in the playoffs.. then his allstars are meaningless.

we are still on the "JJ not having certain "skillsets" players on his teams is what's kept him from being an elite player" argument.

Define Elite players please?

[dlpin]

What has this two time allstar done in the playoffs except shoot 40 something percent.

Not just this yr.. every year except during his contract year.

Horf doesn't really show up in the playoffs.

We have learned to deal with no impact from Marvin. We have learned to deal with sometimes negative impact from Smoove. But when you take Horf and say he's not going to give you much in the playoffs.. then his allstars are meaningless.

I think that the point is not that Horford is great, but that all the other all star bigs are either in the twilight of their careers (KG, Duncan) or are better than JJ.

[Diesel]

I think that the point is not that Horford is great, but that all the other all star bigs are either in the twilight of their careers (KG, Duncan) or are better than JJ.

How about diffrent than JJ.

To have a star big who can be counted on to produce points in the clutch is huge. It's a necessity. I don't know if you have noticed this but Joe is not 7 foot. Joe is not 250+. Joe will never do what KG or Duncan or Dirk do. By that same token, for our TEAM to be successful, we need some level of consistency in the frontcourt. You guys expected that once Joe became the highest paid player of his FA class that he would automatically morph into 7 foot 260 with a left handed hook shot and rebounds 12 boards per game and still leads the team in assists and scoring?

AND

You wanted this to happen with him coming off of surgery. Under a new coach and a new offense. Playing with different PGs throughout the year?

Well, it didn't happen and it won't. I keep saying this and I it's still something being ignored so I will say it again.

Before we evaluate Joe's ability to take this team to a championship, let's first recognize that this is not a championship team. We are missing several important skillsets. It's the effect of being built wrong. Sure, we're entertaining. Sure we give a good show. However, when the championship quality teams show up, it's not hard to find our weakness. Make everybody other than Joe beat you. We are still a Jump shooting team. We live by the three and we die by the three. That's who we are. Horf is not a low post scorer. Smoove is not embracing his ability to score in the low post. Without a consistent scorer on those low post points, we're easily a jump shooting, iso based team. Those teams don't win championships.

AHF has been trying to make a case for MVPs and Championships.

I say that there's a bigger case for Rebounding & Low Post Defense or Offense and Championships.

I would have said Dominant Big men, but then there was Jordan.

These are areas that we are the weakest. That means that we have problems stopping people.

Do you know what LD did?

He validated that.

He said, we cannot stop any low post scorer, so you know what, we will let them score and we will outscore their team.

And it worked.

Horf didn't foul out.

Howard scored massive amounts of points.

But our other defenders stopped their scorers.

When we played Chicago, the fly in the ointment was Rose.

We could put a handle on Boozer and Gibson and all the rest, but eventually, Rose got his too.

[MaceCase]

Define Elite players please?

Oh boy......Well....Okay then....Seriously?

Alright I'll lower the bar then. How about a player who uses more than 24% of his team's offensive possessions but manages to at least have a True Shooting of 54%?

The Usage% will weed out role players and help better establish guys that create their own offense and the TS% will help determine whether or not they are actually efficient in burning up that many possessions on their team.

And as far as Dirk not getting doubled? Oh my, what a novel concept moving the ball around rather than letting it sit in one player's hands so the defense can key in on him. That Carlisle fella must have been a coach of the year or something to come up with something that revolutionary!

[Diesel]

Oh boy......Well....Okay then....Seriously?

Alright I'll lower the bar then. How about a player who uses more than 24% of his team's offensive possessions but manages to at least have a True Shooting of 54%?

The Usage% will weed out role players and help better establish guys that create their own offense and the TS% will help determine whether or not they are actually efficient in burning up that many possessions on their team.

And as far as Dirk not getting doubled? Oh my, what a novel concept moving the ball around rather than letting it sit in one player's hands so the defense can key in on him. That Carlisle fella must have been a coach of the year or something to come up with something that revolutionary!

So with a purely statistical view.. you define Elite Player...

Interesting definition.

So by your definition...

Bill Russell who has more championship Hardware than Anybody was never an elite player??

By your definition....

Allen Iverson was not an elite player?? He was MVP and that year he wasn't elite either??

By your definition...

Isiah Thomas was not elite? Really?

Chris Paul is not Elite?

CTC... this is priceless. I'm glad it's recorded...

By your definition, Joe is closer to Elite than Chris Paul?!

If this was family feud, i would say " Good Answer"!!!

:alcoholic:

[MaceCase]

See, Diesel. You are the one that is priceless. Seeing as you were the one to actually ask me the rather ridiculous question of what defines an elite player rather than point you to the obvious list of 50 or so players that exist that are not named Joe Johnson I decided to play a game with you.

Your flimsy without recognizing the obvious direction I was going in retort:

Putting Joe Johnson in the same sentence as Bill Russell, Chris Paul and Isiah Thomas.........Did you actually think before you posted or were you shuddering in too much euphoria thinking you'd actually managed a point?

:rofl:

Seeing as Joe Johnson's number 1 NBA talent is his ability to create his offense I felt it fair to lower the bar for him and compare him to others strictly in that regard.

He is not an elite rebounder or defender sooooo no sense In hurting his ego comparing him to Russell or others that impact the game in that regard. (duh)

He is not an elite passer or steals guy soooooooooooooo no sense in further hurting his ego and comparing him to Paul, Thomas and others in that regard (duh again) (Paul, by the way, has actually recorded usage% above 24% twice in addition to only shooting below 54% TS once)

I'll give you Iverson though. Most pundits will tell you that he had a largely overrated career and MVP season but he paved the way for raw boxscore blunders like Joe Johnson. Iverson is highly rated in heart if you will but you will notice that he achieved this "feat" 3 times over his career.

Joe supporters go on and on and on talking about how he's so great in iso and he's the only one that can create offense for others with his fantastic Iso abilities so I decided to see if this was actually true and rate him in that regard. As I stated before, the usage determines how much they can create their own offense and the TS% was to see if they were actually efficient doing this. I in fact was going to add if Joe could manage an assist rate higher than his usage seeing as usage doesn't include assists and since people claim him as a great and willing passer from the wing position.....Yea he failed in that regard too but much more so recently than in the past. Outside of one season 5 or 6 years ago Joe has not been an efficient scorer and he most definitely has not created more offense for his teammates than he's wasted on himself. What gives? He certainly had a lesser team back then and surely none of those "skillsets" players existed on those horrible Atlanta teams yet that's the only time he played elite in scoring the ball.

You will gloss over all of that so I will summarize:

If your best aspect as an NBA player is your scoring then I would hope that you actually do so at an acceptable rate and not below the league average.

some research

Edited June 12, 2011 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[Diesel]

See, Diesel. You are the one that is priceless. Seeing as you were the one to actually ask me the rather ridiculous question of what defines an elite player rather than point you to the obvious list of 50 or so players that exist that are not named Joe Johnson I decided to play a game with you.

Your flimsy without recognizing the obvious direction I was going in retort:

Putting Joe Johnson in the same sentence as Bill Russell, Chris Paul and Isiah Thomas.........Did you actually think before you posted or were you shuddering in too much euphoria thinking you'd actually managed a point?

Where did i put Joe Johnson in the same category with Russell Paul, Iverson and Thomas.

Let me recap this for you.

I asked you to define Elite player.. Since that is your new buzz word.

You did.

Then I noted that under your definition, Paul, Iverson, Russell, Thomas, and a great deal of other great players would not be ELITE in your book.

This is your book.

I asked you to define your new buzz word.

Given your definition, I find it very interesting that your definition excludes these guys.

That's what is laughable. That's what makes this comical. I asked you to define the term, you did, and the results are that some of the players that were called the 50 greatest would not qualify.

If you don't like the application of your definition, then you need to change it. Otherwise, stop trying to pin it on me. It's there for the whole world to see.

Oh yeah, I forgot..

CTC means Change the Conversation. Didn't I say something about this being an M.O. earlier?

Like I said before... They know me. Now, they're getting to know you too.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The other night, I'm watching the Mavs play and I'm asking myself... why does nobody ever double Dirk. Then I figured it out.. Jason Kidd and a plethora of able scorers. It's not that these guys are great scorers or allstars any more. But these guys can score and Jason runs the offense. Their scoring is Bang-Bang.. Dirk is not holding the ball he catches and fires. Terry is not holding the ball, he catches and fires. Marion is not holding the ball, he catches and fires or drives. Bang-Bang. Kid is still good enough to get the ball to the open man, even if they double Kidd.

I realized at that point, that team is beauty. It's like Houston with Hakeem. Yes, we will have the rainbow three that went to the top of the American Airlines arena fed to us, but the truth is that it's a team with mature players who knew their role.

Do the Hawks know their role?

It's early in the game, but Dallas is already up 12. And they built a lot of that lead without Dirk in the game because of foul trouble. But the group of players they have on the floor are so solid, especially from a scoring standpoint, that they easily built that lead to 12. Dirk is 1 - 5 FG for 2 points, but they have a 12 point lead?

Why?

Jason Terry - 9 points on 4 - 6 shooting

Deshawn Stevenson - 9 points on 3 - 3 shooting from 3 point range

Jose Barea - 6 points on 3 - 5 shooting

Shawn Marion - 6 points on 2 - 5 shooting

Ish . . even old azz Brian Cardinal came into the game for 3 minutes and knocked down a 3.

And on the defensive end, they go zone and limit Miami's offense while they were knocking down shot after shot.

Of course, as I typed this, Miami goes on a 7 - 0 run and the lead is down to 5. But how huge was it for the reserves to play that well with Dirk basically being a non-factor right now? It'll be interesting to see if Dirk has a lot of energy to close out this game in the 4th quarter, based off of what the complimentary players did in those minutes while Dirk was inactive.

*****************

LOL . . hell of a run by Miami. They were down 12 when I started typing this. Then Eddie House comes in, and they go on a 14 - 0 run to go back up 2. House is 3 - 3 from three.

Edited June 13, 2011 by northcyde