Frediocy is finally coming home to roost...

[CBAreject]

For the last two weeks, Venters and Kimbrel have begun to show the inevitable signs of the undue wear and tear Frediot Gonzalez has placed on them all season. I watched in horror as he pitched Venters in 4 run game after 4 run game during the midseason, knowing all along that he may not have enough left in the tank to pitch well in closer games (higher leverage situations) down the stretch and in the playoffs (should they even make it). I have lambasted Fredi for his moronic decision to abuse Venters and Kimbrel on here several times. Every time, a small collection of squawkers has rushed to Fredi's defense, saying some version of "I think he's doing a pretty good job", despite the obvious fact that managing a bullpen is the single most important facet of being a national league manager. The Fredi love on her has been blind. My accurate criticism of Fredi has been met with emoticons, "LOLz", and personal insults.

I ask you now squawkers, particularly coachx, now that Venters has spent the last 2 weeks pitching like the worst reliever in the NL, now that our wildcard lead is down to 2.5 after 5 blown saves by Venters and Kimbrel in that stretch, now that Kimbrel has given up HR in back to back games (as many HR as he gave up in the previous 100 appearances or so)...please rush to Fredi's defense and explain to me how this melt down so obviously due to overuse of Kimbrel/Venters in low leverage situations is not Fredi's fault.

[Guest]

For the last two weeks, Venters and Kimbrel have begun to show the inevitable signs of the undue wear and tear Frediot Gonzalez has placed on them all season. I watched in horror as he pitched Venters in 4 run game after 4 run game during the midseason, knowing all along that he may not have enough left in the tank to pitch well in closer games (higher leverage situations) down the stretch and in the playoffs (should they even make it). I have lambasted Fredi for his moronic decision to abuse Venters and Kimbrel on here several times. Every time, a small collection of squawkers has rushed to Fredi's defense, saying some version of "I think he's doing a pretty good job", despite the obvious fact that managing a bullpen is the single most important facet of being a national league manager. The Fredi love on her has been blind. My accurate criticism of Fredi has been met with emoticons, "LOLz", and personal insults.

I ask you now squawkers, particularly coachx, now that Venters has spent the last 2 weeks pitching like the worst reliever in the NL, now that our wildcard lead is down to 2.5 after 5 blown saves by Venters and Kimbrel in that stretch, now that Kimbrel has given up HR in back to back games (as many HR as he gave up in the previous 100 appearances or so)...please rush to Fredi's defense and explain to me how this melt down so obviously due to overuse of Kimbrel/Venters in low leverage situations is not Fredi's fault.

No squawker has ever defended Fredi's use of the bullpen from my memory of the discussions this year.There also have not been many emoticons blasted against you for this, this is a gross stereotyping of the current squawkers group with the past ones that CBA has dealt with. There have been moronic squawkers who try to mask their hate for Fredi by dressing up their opinion with the "science" of "sabermetrics". It is funny how someone comes out of the woodwork to bark when they are right, but when they are flat out wrong about a player being "streaky"/"lucky"/"there's no way in hell Constanza is better than Heyward!!!!!" they hide and do not post on the squawk for months. Go back into your cage you curmudgeon.

[coachx]

For the last two weeks, Venters and Kimbrel have begun to show the inevitable signs of the undue wear and tear Frediot Gonzalez has placed on them all season. I watched in horror as he pitched Venters in 4 run game after 4 run game during the midseason, knowing all along that he may not have enough left in the tank to pitch well in closer games (higher leverage situations) down the stretch and in the playoffs (should they even make it). I have lambasted Fredi for his moronic decision to abuse Venters and Kimbrel on here several times. Every time, a small collection of squawkers has rushed to Fredi's defense, saying some version of "I think he's doing a pretty good job", despite the obvious fact that managing a bullpen is the single most important facet of being a national league manager. The Fredi love on her has been blind. My accurate criticism of Fredi has been met with emoticons, "LOLz", and personal insults.

I ask you now squawkers, particularly coachx, now that Venters has spent the last 2 weeks pitching like the worst reliever in the NL, now that our wildcard lead is down to 2.5 after 5 blown saves by Venters and Kimbrel in that stretch, now that Kimbrel has given up HR in back to back games (as many HR as he gave up in the previous 100 appearances or so)...please rush to Fredi's defense and explain to me how this melt down so obviously due to overuse of Kimbrel/Venters in low leverage situations is not Fredi's fault.

Its never good to have a reliever lead MLB in innings pitched. Granted it takes a very effective pitcher to be used that often but you don't want that wear and tear on them.

However, that was never an issue that I ever defended Freddie on.

Big win last night for the Braves. Hopefully Alex Gonzalez can get healthy in a week from his calf strain last night.

[AHF]

when they are flat out wrong about "there's no way in hell Constanza is better than Heyward!!!!!"

For the month of September, Constanza has a .444 OPS compared to Heyward's .800 OPS for the month. Fredi seems to have recognized the value difference as well given the drop in Constanza's playing time during the most critical portion of the year.

[AHF]

The initial argument for Constanza was that hot streaks do not exist. Well, that was pretty much disproved even if CBA wants to dismiss the evidence. The argument then changed to Constanza being lucky as to why he started playing so well in the beginning. That was funny because it was "object sabermetricians" using subjective views of Constanza's hits to try to disprove that Constanza was hot (acknowledging defeat of the "streaks don't exist" argument). Finally, in my mind at least, the argument really showed that CBA was pissed since "there is no way in hell Constanza is better than Heyward!!!! Fredi is a frediot!"

I'm not claiming Constanza is better than Heyward, I'm pointing to the progression of what CBA's arguments showed. He ditched the arguments when Constanza still played at a high level and Fredi started him. He also ditched the argument once Constanza's level of play decreased and Fredi stopped starting him. In other words, he bailed on his argument because the results indicated Fredi was making correct decisions. This coming from the person who continually abuses the moneyball "process > results" motto.

I'm just a Heyward fan boy who is hoping he bounces back next year!

I do, however, think managers using elite relievers like Venters and Clippard as much as they have this season are risking end of the year performance issues and long-term issues with the arms of their stud relievers. Restricting those players to high leverage situations seems like the 'no-brainer' way of striking a better balance.

[AHF]

I just haven't seen any evidence of a squawker on this board actually claiming that Fredi has been using Venters and Clippard in an optimal way. I think everyone has said it is not a good decision by Fredi to be piling up their innings unnecessarily. CBA is making a sweeping unfounded generalization of squawkers on this board and giving himself "props" for his previous claim as if there was someone in disagreement of that. I could just have a bad memory, but no one has disagreed with CBA saying Fredi should not use top relievers in low leverage situations. Plenty of people have disagreed with many claims of CBA about Fredi, but it doesn't follow they they disagree with everything he says (and, again, I see no evidence that anyone did disagree).

I guess he is king in his own mind and that is good enough for him. He can be delusional and that doesn't bother me, but he is attacking squawkers who are nonexistent and that does bother me.

I agree the original post was too broad and generalizing in its characterizations of the posters and posts on the threads discussing Fredi Gonzalez. There were some "lol" types of posts but many more substantive discussions about both what decisions were being made and how to evaluate those decisions and their results.

[CBAreject]

Unfortunately, blocking hawksfanatic doesn't stop his posts from being quoted in others' posts. I never said hot streaks don't exist. In fact, I took great pains to say that wasn't my position after being accused of that repeatedly by hawksfanatic, et al. They do exist. The trouble is, one cannot assume that an apparent hot streak is a true hot streak and not an aberration without looking at what is going on in the games. Constanza's apparent hot streak was very likely due to luck due to the unsustainable nature of the way he was reaching base. Proving that hot streaks exist (which was never actually in question) does not prove that a perceived hot streak is a true one.

Hawksfanatic isn't concerned with what I have to say. He's only concerned with arguing with it, whatever it may be, which is why he was the first to reply to this thread, quite predictably, and why he's more interested in setting up strawmen to rail against (such as the position that "there's no such thing as hot streaks").

Nobody said "it's good to overuse relievers". That's true. Then again, I never said they took such an absurd position. What they did say in a myriad of different ways was that Fredi was "doing a pretty good job". That's patently false, and is apparent given the benefit of hindsight now. Fredi was guffing up the single most important part of being an NL manager. Those who excused him on whatever grounds were blind to that. There were plenty of blunders along the way this season, but none was so obvious and so egregious as his misuse of our relievers. It seems almost inevitable now that St Louis will take the wild card, but as catastrophic as that will be, if it unseats Fredi's corpulent posterior from the managerial seat, it may, in the long run, be worth it.

[coachx]

For the month of September, Constanza has a .444 OPS compared to Heyward's .800 OPS for the month. Fredi seems to have recognized the value difference as well given the drop in Constanza's playing time during the most critical portion of the year.

I credit Freddie for playing the hot bat and sitting the cold bad in August...........and then making the adjustment in September once those hot and cold roles reversed.

Streaks are a huge part of most sports that can't be ignored.

Without Constanza's hot play in August (while Chipper and McCann were hurting) the Braves may vary well be trailing in the Wild Card Race.

Unfortunately, blocking hawksfanatic doesn't stop his posts from being quoted in others' posts. I never said hot streaks don't exist.

Actually you flipped flopped on this and I quoted your flip flops in the other thread. Those exact words did not come out of your mouth if you want to be like a politician. That is true but its not a whole truth. You made statements that insuated only fools believe in hot streaks.........which insuated they must not exist since only fools believe in them.

No need in re-living the past but since you brought it up it deserves to be corrected.

Here were our exact words on that exchange below from the previous Heyward thread:

Coachx

I applaude a manager who rides the hot hand.

CBAReject's direct response:

This practice is considered foolish by people who understand statistics, but you're applauding Fredi for doing so.

Yep, your darn right I give credit where its due rather then only pointing blame when things don't work out.

Edited September 23, 2011 by coachx

[CBAreject]

"Riding the hot hand" is foolish, since an apparent hot streak cannot be assumed to be a true hot streak. Most times, they are aberrations. Fredi Gonzalez is among the most ill-equipped people in baseball to discern the difference.

What I said there in no way "insinuates" that there is no such thing as a hot streak. You'd like for me to take an extreme position because it's easier to prove it wrong. You have caught the hawksfanatic disease of wanting to "win" the argument instead of listening to what is being said and actually digesting it. You don't actually support your positions and contribute constructively to the debate, though. Saying "I applaud" is not actually lending support to your position; it's simply saying that you enjoy your own position so much that you clap your hands together when someone agrees with it. That in no way makes it any more correct.

[macdaddy]

"Riding the hot hand" is foolish, since an apparent hot streak cannot be assumed to be a true hot streak. Most times, they are aberrations. Fredi Gonzalez is among the most ill-equipped people in baseball to discern the difference.

What I said there in no way "insinuates" that there is no such thing as a hot streak. You'd like for me to take an extreme position because it's easier to prove it wrong. You have caught the hawksfanatic disease of wanting to "win" the argument instead of listening to what is being said and actually digesting it. You don't actually support your positions and contribute constructively to the debate, though. Saying "I applaud" is not actually lending support to your position; it's simply saying that you enjoy your own position so much that you clap your hands together when someone agrees with it. That in no way makes it any more correct.

Geez i hate to jump into someone elses argument but you're accusing coach of not actually supporting his positions and contributing constructively to the debate in the same post that you lob this: "Fredi Gonzalez is among the most ill-equipped people in baseball to discern the difference.(betweeen a hot streak and an abberation" Pot meet kettle.

We are at the bottom, not the middle, but the bottom in a lot of important offensive categories. This is the real reason we are going down the toilet. I don't know if you blame a lack of hitting on Fredi too but i don't see how he bears much responsibility for the team not having enough quality hitters.

[CBAreject]

If you read that single post and conclude that I, in general, do not support my arguments, you make an egregious error. I have already supported the argument that Fredi is dim-witted in several other posts. I don't mind your jumping into the argument. In fact, I welcome it. Just understand that what is being said here reflects months of hostility between a group of posters who universally and inexplicably support Fredi and me.

I completely agree with your assessment of our offense. I don't blame the offense on Fredi (though I do believe his decision to consistently bat lower OBP players in the 1-2 holes, prior to the Bourn acquisition cost us at least a game or two in the standings). Much more of the team's offensive dysfunction is attributable to Larry Parrish. I already posted on this in the other thread, so read that if you want to know my views.

[CBAreject]

For the month of September, Constanza has a .444 OPS compared to Heyward's .800 OPS for the month. Fredi seems to have recognized the value difference as well given the drop in Constanza's playing time during the most critical portion of the year.

Before trumpeting Fredi's powers of discernment, you might want to consider that he is benching Heyward tonight in favor of Diaz. Heyward has the highest OBP of any Brave in the month of September, and he is a LHB facing a RHP (Blanton), the fact that Heyward is just a better player, notwithstanding. Diaz is horrific against RHP. He used to be very good against LHP, but he's only been mediocre against them for the last season. Acquiring Diaz would be fine (still a reasonably valuable RHB) except we have a manager who doesn't know how to use him.

[CBAreject]

I love seeing all the "This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by hawksfanatic". Every time I post, he's running along behind, yapping, and snapping at my heels. Oh fanatic, your obsession with me is charming...tiresome, but charming.

[coachx]

So one of your arguments for why Fredi should play Heyward is that he has the highest OBP in the most recent month. Might you say Heyward is "hot" this month? Nah, nah that just can't be because they you'd be directly contradicting yourself. And you're CBA! You're never wrong!

[jy23]

Lol....yall are killing me

[AHF]

Parrish is gone. Yeah!

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110930&content_id=25401480&vkey=news_atl&c_id=atl&partnerId=rss_atl

[lethalweapon3]

Where is that GIF of the kid's face in front of the birthday cake when I need it?

~lw3

[CBAreject]

Coach, this is one of those examples of when you are so fixated on proving me wrong you don't actually think about whether your argument makes sense.

Arguing that the "hot" player should play only makes sense when he is worse than the "cold" player. Otherwise, you don't need him to be hot to start him. My argument for playing Heyward would be that he is the better player, particularly given Diaz strong LHP preference. However, when we're dealing with a manager who believes that all streaks are genuine streaks and as such, you have to "ride the hot hand", it's worth pointing out that in this case, it doesn't even make sense to start Diaz on the merit of "hotness", since Heyward is the hotter player (and the better player, which is why I said "notwithstanding"). I'm also pointing out Fredi's apparent blunder because AHF had just finished lauding him for "recognizing" that Constanza's streak had ended and smartly subbing Heyward for him. None of these mean that I believe Heyward should start because he's the "hot" player. Please pay attention and try to follow. If you have a legitimate question, I will be happy to answer it for you, and if you don't understand my answer, I will rephrase it. Please avoid the example hawksfanantic has set of just looking for any place you can attack so as to "win" the argument. That's petty.

[CBAreject]

Parrish is gone. Yeah!

http://mlb.mlb.com/n...rtnerId=rss_atl

Well, it looks like Wren got it at least half right by firing Parrish. If I had to choose between his firing Parrish and firing Fredi, I think I would choose for him to fire Parrish. I think (hope) he has begun to understand the value of managers and coaches. They cost so little but can impact the whole team in ways that a single low-salaried player cannot. I am also thrilled that Wren went over Fredi's fat head to do this, as Fredi said publicly yesterday that all coaches would be back. I wish Parrish no harm, but I believe he will wreak havoc to the offensive approaches of any professional ballplayers he comes across. In his world, everyone would hit like Jeff Francouer. I suggest a different career.

Now maybe we just have to sit through one more season of underachieving under incompetent management before another collapse gets Fredi fired. The worst part will be another year of a city-wide mancrush on this total buffoon in the dugout.

[lethalweapon3]

Who takes over for Larry P.? "Larry" Jr. or "Larry" Sr.? Anybody seen Julio Franco around? What's Sheff doing these days?

~lw3