It's clear. Al and Hinrich are luxuries, not necessities

[Diesel]

People forget Doc was about to get axed when Boston traded for KG and Ray - I always say you need players to win rings.

People also forget what Doc did with a team full of Nobodies in Orlando.

River's first coach of the year award didn't come because of the big three. It came because of work he did with :

Chris Gatling, Darryl Armstrong, and Ron Mercer (his original big three).

Yeah, he went 24-58 with a pretty solid roster the year before; he said he'd be working for ESPN if not for the KG deal

Hello... Pretty solid roster?

82 game season...

Wally Z = 32 games played.

Peirce = 47 games played.

Jefferson = 69 games played.

T. Allen = 33 games played.

The only player who didn't get injured was Gerald Green.

[Joker]

I really do not see how one could think Smith is a more complete player than Horford. Nothing in terms of evaluation says that. If you want to say Smith has a larger skill-set that's true. But more complete player. Please stop it. How does Smith have more potential than Horford. Horford could be a superstar in the right system with the right PG. Josh is pretty much what he is regardless of where he's at. Even with a player like Nash who Josh would flourish with, he will still have his Josh Smith All-Stock Market team games.

People also forget what Doc did with a team full of Nobodies in Orlando.

River's first coach of the year award didn't come because of the big three. It came because of work he did with :

Chris Gatling, Darryl Armstrong, and Ron Mercer (his original big three).

Hello... Pretty solid roster?

82 game season...

Wally Z = 32 games played.

Peirce = 47 games played.

Jefferson = 69 games played.

T. Allen = 33 games played.

The only player who didn't get injured was Gerald Green.

The NBA overall was weak for a four to five year period at that time. Doc did a great coaching job but that would never happen in today's NBA.

[Wretch]

I really like your posts, Wretch. As opposed to some of us, you always back your arguments with a reasonable line of though. I must, however, disagree to you in which of them we should deal first.

I mean, I have it very clear in my mind the ASG won't change the coaching staff OR put the right players around Josh, and therefore he will always be who he is in this team: a schizophrenic birdbrain who can lead the team to wonderful wins or simply pull them all into a black hole with his streaky shooting and lazy play. I think Josh is the more complete player and that he has the higher ceiling, but Al would fit better as our PF, just because he doesn't want to be the one who tries to do it all. There are other players in the team. Josh can't be fixed. Not here, not now. I'd try to deal him, but not until the end of the season, before getting rid of Horf. Maybe to a really bad team for some young guy and a first. There are plenty of them on those teams, Cousins, MarShon, Monroe, McGee, maybe even Noah could be had for the right deal.

Is he the more complete player? I don't know if that's the best description because he's so damn erratic. But he is the most productive and he also has more impact on the game. What's scary is that he really does have the potential to do even more in both aspects.

Here's my thing with Smoove....

He's a solid 10 rebounds per game without even trying. That's almost good enough for top 10 in the NBA. Get him to focus on positioning, boxing out, playing closer to the basket...crashing the boards...

He's a solid 15 points per game. Get him closer to the rim for more inside scoring and offensive put backs. Get this guy to start GOING GLASS and using that running hook going left. Dude, THAT shot....? OMG....he does it like once every 10 games, but with his athleticism, nobody could stop that thing.

Josh is a hair away from being a 20/10. All he's lacking is focus and better coaching. People clamor about assisted baskets, but here's the thing with that...those points are not given and not easy. Just like you won't see Josh crossing someone over, pulling up, and stroking nets...you won't see JJ catching a back door lob or on the break leaping over 3 people.

That energy...you can't even put into a stat. It gets the crowd fired up and gets the team fired up. Same goes for his steals and blocks. These two things turn the game around. How many times have we seen Josh bust up a break or a layup? People that don't put any stock in that don't understand the significance. It's not just a bucket saved...

3 blocks in a game is pretty much 6 points saved. One steal has the potential to save 2-3 points. But we have games games where Josh blocks 5 - 6 shots and 2 - 3 steals. Now, also, factor in the way he used to dominate on a nightly basis. Teams had to adjust their gameplan when he was on the floor because he was always a threat to swat it. You go back like 4 of 5 years ago, that dude was swallowing about 3 shots a game on the regular, battling for the league title. So not only is he saving points, he's also making teams adjust. I wish the NBA would start tracking altered shots missed, but because for every block...there's like 5 shots altered just because he's standing there.

Trade all that? Trade that? No. Horford is a steady player and a true PF. He's got to really establish an inside game before he's a legit 20/10 threat, but he doesn't affect the game like Josh does. Potentially, you're looking at a guy that can give you dependable points, rebounds, and solid defense. But with Smoove, you've got a guy that can completely change the game for you.

They're both worth keeping, but they kind of duplicate the same position. So dealing one to get an Allstar quality talent in return (and they are both worth that) at a different position would pay off in a way that having them both here does not.

Can Josh be a different player? I keep saying it, but a big part of why he plays like a bonehead sometimes is because nobody checks him. Watch the Lakers sometime and pay attention to how Kobe glares after just ONE dumb shot by anybody on the floor. If any of you have ever played a game of ball in your life, you know what that is. LOL...I've gotten that look before in pickup games...

"The f*ck are you doing man?!"

When the franchise/future hall of famer/house draw/meal ticket/championship ticket/ is giving you that look...and telling you "Give me the damn ball" I'm sorry, but that would make a HUGE difference. Then you've got the team telling you, "Why didn't you give Kobe the ball...why did you shoot that? What the f*ck are you doing?" Then you've got the Hall of Fame coach that says, "Come here. Sit." Big difference.

On this team, Josh Smith believes he is Kobe and there is nobody to tell him otherwise.

[Joker]

Is he the more complete player? I don't know if that's the best description because he's so damn erratic. But he is the most productive and he also has more impact on the game. What's scary is that he really does have the potential to do even more in both aspects.

Here's my thing with Smoove....

He's a solid 10 rebounds per game without even trying. That's almost good enough for top 10 in the NBA. Get him to focus on positioning, boxing out, playing closer to the basket...crashing the boards...

He's a solid 15 points per game. Get him closer to the rim for more inside scoring and offensive put backs. Get this guy to start GOING GLASS and using that running hook going left. Dude, THAT shot....? OMG....he does it like once every 10 games, but with his athleticism, nobody could stop that thing.

Josh is a hair away from being a 20/10. All he's lacking is focus and better coaching. People clamor about assisted baskets, but here's the thing with that...those points are not given and not easy. Just like you won't see Josh crossing someone over, pulling up, and stroking nets...you won't see JJ catching a back door lob or on the break leaping over 3 people.

That energy...you can't even put into a stat. It gets the crowd fired up and gets the team fired up. Same goes for his steals and blocks. These two things turn the game around. How many times have we seen Josh bust up a break or a layup? People that don't put any stock in that don't understand the significance. It's not just a bucket saved...

3 blocks in a game is pretty much 6 points saved. One steal has the potential to save 2-3 points. But we have games games where Josh blocks 5 - 6 shots and 2 - 3 steals. Now, also, factor in the way he used to dominate on a nightly basis. Teams had to adjust their gameplan when he was on the floor because he was always a threat to swat it. You go back like 4 of 5 years ago, that dude was swallowing about 3 shots a game on the regular, battling for the league title. So not only is he saving points, he's also making teams adjust. I wish the NBA would start tracking altered shots missed, but because for every block...there's like 5 shots altered just because he's standing there.

Trade all that? Trade that? No. Horford is a steady player and a true PF. He's got to really establish an inside game before he's a legit 20/10 threat, but he doesn't affect the game like Josh does. Potentially, you're looking at a guy that can give you dependable points, rebounds, and solid defense. But with Smoove, you've got a guy that can completely change the game for you.

They're both worth keeping, but they kind of duplicate the same position. So dealing one to get an Allstar quality talent in return (and they are both worth that) at a different position would pay off in a way that having them both here does not.

Can Josh be a different player? I keep saying it, but a big part of why he plays like a bonehead sometimes is because nobody checks him. Watch the Lakers sometime and pay attention to how Kobe glares after just ONE dumb shot by anybody on the floor. If any of you have ever played a game of ball in your life, you know what that is. LOL...I've gotten that look before in pickup games...

"The f*ck are you doing man?!"

When the franchise/future hall of famer/house draw/meal ticket/championship ticket/ is giving you that look...and telling you "Give me the damn ball" I'm sorry, but that would make a HUGE difference. Then you've got the team telling you, "Why didn't you give Kobe the ball...why did you shoot that? What the f*ck are you doing?" Then you've got the Hall of Fame coach that says, "Come here. Sit." Big difference.

On this team, Josh Smith believes he is Kobe and there is nobody to tell him otherwise.

Smith is what he is in terms of focus and rebounding. Coaching is not an issue but getting into better spots would help but what would help even more in fast break opts with someone who knows how to pass the rock which isn't Jeff Teague or most PG's in the NBA.

He's a 20/10 guy for a bad team if not 23/10. His defense while he doesn't protect the basket like he did two years ago he still has great impact on that end. He is underrated to be honest.

You think Josh thinks like that. That's where you are wrong. The whole arena told Josh NO! when he took jumpers and he still took the jumpers. Kobe plays with Artest and he is still as stupid as ever. Low BBIQ is low BBIQ, regardless of if you are playing with a star or not. The only thing that normally changes is selfishness and I don't think Josh is all that selfish for starters.

I hate this type of convo because both Horford and Smith are vital to this team's overall success. Let's be honest, I know it might sound crazy but I would trade both of them for Howard and Anderson.

[terrell]

ill say it one more time al horford and willie for mcgee,nick young 1st rd pick

al horford for cousions,salmons

al horford for gortat,and dudley

Hell to the naw. Wont no part of McGee. Or Young(Jamal part 2) for that matter. Especially not for Al. Better call Indy and go after Granger(heard they might be willing to part with him, with the emergence of Paul Georgre) to replace Marvin if you wanna move Horford. Btw, Dont want no part of Cousins either. Now, Gortat and Dudley is interesting if we could throw in Marvin and get a pick out of it.. TMac/Dudley at sf is better than TMac/Duck imo. Probably still wouldnt do it though. Why not just trade Kirk and Duck? lol Edited January 24, 2012 by terrell

[Joker]

All these guys like Cousins, Hibbert, Bogut, Bynum etc have SEVERE flaws in their game. Sometimes I think this forum has the mind to downgrade a player to upgrade another one. I hate that mentality. I really try to be fair to all the players. Joe surprised me, I thought he regressed but I was wrong.

Edited January 24, 2012 by nbasuperstar40

[NineOhTheRino]

I think we can simplify things with two questions.

1. Can this team get out of the first round of the playoffs without Kirk and Al?

2. Can this team get out of the second round with Kirk and Al?

If you answer yes/no then making a move is a no-brainer.

[sturt]

1. I can't be certain, but the Sixers game gives me a clue.

2. I definitely think it's plausible. I think we lost to CHI last season largely because we hit a psychological wall and because of their bench. We've closed both of those gaps already.

After Hinrich returns, I still say, pick up a big like Przybilla. If we can't get a back-to-the-basket scorer, the next best thing is a legit C who can rebound. If we can keep away from any further long-term injuries, I like our chances.

[Joker]

My answer. See sturt comment. That's exactly how I feel sans Pryzbilla.

Edited January 24, 2012 by nbasuperstar40

[Wretch]

Smith is what he is in terms of focus and rebounding. Coaching is not an issue but getting into better spots would help in the NBA.

He rarely gets benched for the boneheaded passes.

He feels no heat from -REPEATEDLY- bad shots.

He's put in position to shoot from long distance.

How is coaching NOT a factor here? I'm not saying Drew is a bad coach...but clearly in the case of Josh Smith, neither he nor his predecessor have gotten through.

but what would help even more in fast break opts with someone who knows how to pass the rock which isn't Jeff Teague or most PG's

Don't agree with this at all.

He's a 20/10 guy for a bad team if not 23/10. His defense while he doesn't protect the basket like he did two years ago he still has great impact on that end. He is underrated to be honest.

Agree with the latter statement. Disagree with the former statement. Josh can pull 10 rebounds and score 15 unassisted points in a game without blinking. If he were playing closer to the basket, worked more on that part of his game, it's not even worth debating. He's not a 20+ scorer, but can certainly put up 18-20ppg on any team. He's not a 1st or 2nd option, but he is a legit 3rd.

You think Josh thinks like that. That's where you are wrong. The whole arena told Josh NO! when he took jumpers and he still took the jumpers.

He isn't going to listen to fans or pundits. We're not his peers and thus we don't know s***.

Kobe plays with Artest and he is still as stupid as ever. Low BBIQ is low BBIQ, regardless of if you are playing with a star or not.

Ron Artest won the Lakers a Championship.

I hate this type of convo because both Horford and Smith are vital to this team's overall success. Let's be honest, I know it might sound crazy but I would trade both of them for Howard and Anderson.

I don't like having the conversation because I really love both players. I just think it's a duplication of talent. It's tempting to throw the both of them in a deal for a Mega-Star...because at least you have that piece. But from an overall talent standpoint, you take a step back. Getting Dwight for one of them puts us in the finals picture.

For a rental, I think one guy would do it. Anything else and Orlando starts the conversation with Smoove/Horf+

...probably Teague and I'm not interested in dealing him.

[Joker]

He rarely gets benched for the boneheaded passes.

He feels no heat from -REPEATEDLY- bad shots.

He's put in position to shoot from long distance.

How is coaching NOT a factor here? I'm not saying Drew is a bad coach...but clearly in the case of Josh Smith, neither he nor his predecessor have gotten through.

Don't agree with this at all.

Agree with the latter statement. Disagree with the former statement. Josh can pull 10 rebounds and score 15 unassisted points in a game without blinking. If he were playing closer to the basket, worked more on that part of his game, it's not even worth debating. He's not a 20+ scorer, but can certainly put up 18-20ppg on any team. He's not a 1st or 2nd option, but he is a legit 3rd.

He isn't going to listen to fans or pundits. We're not his peers and thus we don't know s***.

Ron Artest won the Lakers a Championship.

I don't like having the conversation because I really love both players. I just think it's a duplication of talent. It's tempting to throw the both of them in a deal for a Mega-Star...because at least you have that piece. But from an overall talent standpoint, you take a step back. Getting Dwight for one of them puts us in the finals picture.

For a rental, I think one guy would do it. Anything else and Orlando starts the conversation with Smoove/Horf+

...probably Teague and I'm not interested in dealing him.

We can't bench him and when we did last year, it didn't do anything positive. Josh is boneheaded by nature. Like I said, he is what he is.

You do not have to agree, I seen enough of Teague to know he was a tendency to take a fast break by himself no matter if it's a one on one or two on one.

On a bad team, who is going to score? Ramon Sessions was scoring 18 ppg. Gortat who is really a 12 ppg scoring is scoring 18 ppg. On a bad team, you get a lot more touches and shots. Look at Anderson with Orlando. Outside of Dwight, that's a terrible team.

He isn't going to listen to teammates or coaches either. Nothing in his career from HS to now has shown you otherwise. This is a blind statement. This is like dating a girl who cheated on every bf before you and believing she will be faithful because she never had a man like you.

Artest was still a bonehead when they won as he is now. Which was my point from the beginning.

I could care less, adding Dwight is greater than those two with this personnel grouping by a mile. We could use Hinrich for bait to get Al Jefferson or Andrea Bangiani who might not be traded this year. Al will likely be traded. The idea of Teague, Joe, Marvin, Anderson, and Dwight is realistically the best team in the NBA. With Smith and Horford, both are very good and very talented but like you said, they do not make each other better. Horford needs a playmaking PG in a structure offense and Smith is kinda like the Wild Card in Uno.