Comparison of the Day: PF

[KB21]

In what areas, specifically, is Josh actually better?

Defense and passing, and the rebounding and scoring isn't as much of a descrepancy as it is being made out to be. You are talking about the difference in 1.6 PP36 and 1.1 RP36.

[PureGreatness]

In what areas, specifically, is Josh actually better?

josh is a better Post up, passer, defender. Blake is better at running the lane and rebounding.Yes, Blake will get more votes in a general board because nobody really watches the Hawks. I've heard people say The Hawks are boring. People still think Josh can only dunk and has an attitude problem like we are in 2009.

[jy23]

Lets do some comparing shall we....I'm not sure what year most of you would consider Josh's best year but I'll go ahead and roll with this year since this is his highest point and rebound totals of his career but if anybody disagrees I can revise this but anyway....so in Josh's best year hes averaging 19 points 10 rebounds 4 assists 2 blocks and a steal and a half.....in blakes rookie year he averaged 22.5 points 12 rebounds 4 assists half a block and a steal per game. So blake scores more rebounds better passes at the exact same rate and falls behind in steals and blocks. So for the people calling Josh a better passer there is nothing to actually give credit to that claim besides the fact that you said it...saying Josh is a better post up player means nothing because how much do we complain about him not playing in the post, being good at it means nothing if he doesn't use the skill. Josh has shot over 50% ONCE in his career, let me repeat that, ONCE IN HIS CAREER!!! For a guy who is so talented (as you guys say) with his post moves and as athletic as he is how in the hell do you shoot over ,excuse me, at 50% once in your career? Blake shot 50% his first year and is shooting 54% this year. And before you people start with the "he's playing with Paul" crap he didn't play with him his rookie year when he put up the numbers I mentioned.

When in the hell has Josh ever came close to 23 and 12....its been 7 years and he cant sniff those numbers. For those of you so obsessed with PER Josh has a per of 21.15 in his career year and Blake has a per of 23.06 in a year with his points and rebounds dropping from his ridiculous rookie year. Blake had 63 double doubles last year and 2 triple doubles, and as good as josh is at multiple things he put up 32 double doubles in his best year (just at half of what blake did) and 3 triple doubles for his 7 year career....do I really need to continue?

I feel bad because this is making me look like I dislike Josh or something like that but its not like that at all but this is just ridiculous that the homerism is this strong in here....like really what legitimate argument could you make to say Josh is better than blake? i wanna hear this?

[BrazilianHawk]

Lets do some comparing shall we....I'm not sure what year most of you would consider Josh's best year but I'll go ahead and roll with this year since this is his highest point and rebound totals of his career but if anybody disagrees I can revise this but anyway....so in Josh's best year hes averaging 19 points 10 rebounds 4 assists 2 blocks and a steal and a half.....in blakes rookie year he averaged 22.5 points 12 rebounds 4 assists half a block and a steal per game. So blake scores more rebounds better passes at the exact same rate and falls behind in steals and blocks. So for the people calling Josh a better passer there is nothing to actually give credit to that claim besides the fact that you said it...saying Josh is a better post up player means nothing because how much do we complain about him not playing in the post, being good at it means nothing if he doesn't use the skill. Josh has shot over 50% ONCE in his career, let me repeat that, ONCE IN HIS CAREER!!! For a guy who is so talented (as you guys say) with his post moves and as athletic as he is how in the hell do you shoot over ,excuse me, at 50% once in your career? Blake shot 50% his first year and is shooting 54% this year. And before you people start with the "he's playing with Paul" crap he didn't play with him his rookie year when he put up the numbers I mentioned.

When in the hell has Josh ever came close to 23 and 12....its been 7 years and he cant sniff those numbers. For those of you so obsessed with PER Josh has a per of 21.15 in his career year and Blake has a per of 23.06 in a year with his points and rebounds dropping from his ridiculous rookie year. Blake had 63 double doubles last year and 2 triple doubles, and as good as josh is at multiple things he put up 32 double doubles in his best year (just at half of what blake did) and 3 triple doubles for his 7 year career....do I really need to continue?

I feel bad because this is making me look like I dislike Josh or something like that but its not like that at all but this is just ridiculous that the homerism is this strong in here....like really what legitimate argument could you make to say Josh is better than blake? i wanna hear this?

Very true. If I wasn't lazy Iwould have sought for the nimbers, but it's already there. There's no comparison.

I hate Griffin (almost as much as I hate Josh), I wouldn't like him in a Hawks uni, but the truth is

GRIFFIN >>>>>>>>> Josh

[KB21]

Lets do some comparing shall we....I'm not sure what year most of you would consider Josh's best year but I'll go ahead and roll with this year since this is his highest point and rebound totals of his career but if anybody disagrees I can revise this but anyway....so in Josh's best year hes averaging 19 points 10 rebounds 4 assists 2 blocks and a steal and a half.....in blakes rookie year he averaged 22.5 points 12 rebounds 4 assists half a block and a steal per game. So blake scores more rebounds better passes at the exact same rate and falls behind in steals and blocks. So for the people calling Josh a better passer there is nothing to actually give credit to that claim besides the fact that you said it...saying Josh is a better post up player means nothing because how much do we complain about him not playing in the post, being good at it means nothing if he doesn't use the skill. Josh has shot over 50% ONCE in his career, let me repeat that, ONCE IN HIS CAREER!!! For a guy who is so talented (as you guys say) with his post moves and as athletic as he is how in the hell do you shoot over ,excuse me, at 50% once in your career? Blake shot 50% his first year and is shooting 54% this year. And before you people start with the "he's playing with Paul" crap he didn't play with him his rookie year when he put up the numbers I mentioned.

When in the hell has Josh ever came close to 23 and 12....its been 7 years and he cant sniff those numbers. For those of you so obsessed with PER Josh has a per of 21.15 in his career year and Blake has a per of 23.06 in a year with his points and rebounds dropping from his ridiculous rookie year. Blake had 63 double doubles last year and 2 triple doubles, and as good as josh is at multiple things he put up 32 double doubles in his best year (just at half of what blake did) and 3 triple doubles for his 7 year career....do I really need to continue?

I feel bad because this is making me look like I dislike Josh or something like that but its not like that at all but this is just ridiculous that the homerism is this strong in here....like really what legitimate argument could you make to say Josh is better than blake? i wanna hear this?

The pitfalls of using basic statistics to prove your point.

Let's take your premise that Blake Griffin is just as good of a passer as Josh Smith. Let's define assists percentage first. Assists percentage is the estimated percentage of teammate field goals that the player assisted when he was on the floor.

Josh's assist percentage this year is 20.5%. That means for every 100 assisted field goals his team has when he is on the floor, he has 20.5 of them. Josh is 4th among all forwards in this statistics and first among all power forwards. Blake Griffin has a 15.8% assist percentage. He is 8th among all fowards and 4th among power forwards. Josh Smith is the only power forward in the NBA that has a 20+ PER, 20+ DRB%, and 20+ AST%. Blake isn't a bad passer, but this should end this idea that he's at least as good as Josh as a passer.

Josh is also 2nd among all power forwards in both block percentage and steals percentage. He tied for 3rd with Carlos Boozer in defensive rating. He is 1st among all power forwards in defensive win shares. This is why the choice between the two is a lot closer than what many of you who are looking at basic statistics make it out to be. While Blake is a more efficient shooter, Josh is by far the more efficient defender. Blake does not have a significant enough edge in rebounding to really say that he's a markedly better scorer and rebounder than Josh is.

[PureGreatness]

Here is a simple Yes or no question. Would you take Griffin over Lamarcus Aldrige and Zach Randolph? If you say yes I then I will understand your point.Just a simple yes or no.

Edited April 11, 2012 by PureGreatness

[jy23]

The pitfalls of using basic statistics to prove your point. Let's take your premise that Blake Griffin is just as good of a passer as Josh Smith. Let's define assists percentage first. Assists percentage is the estimated percentage of teammate field goals that the player assisted when he was on the floor. Josh's assist percentage this year is 20.5%. That means for every 100 assisted field goals his team has when he is on the floor, he has 20.5 of them. Josh is 4th among all forwards in this statistics and first among all power forwards. Blake Griffin has a 15.8% assist percentage. He is 8th among all fowards and 4th among power forwards. Josh Smith is the only power forward in the NBA that has a 20+ PER, 20+ DRB%, and 20+ AST%. Blake isn't a bad passer, but this should end this idea that he's at least as good as Josh as a passer.Josh is also 2nd among all power forwards in both block percentage and steals percentage. He tied for 3rd with Carlos Boozer in defensive rating. He is 1st among all power forwards in defensive win shares. This is why the choice between the two is a lot closer than what many of you who are looking at basic statistics make it out to be. While Blake is a more efficient shooter, Josh is by far the more efficient defender. Blake does not have a significant enough edge in rebounding to really say that he's a markedly better scorer and rebounder than Josh is.

Not a significant enough edge in rebounding? Again this is joshs best year by far rebounding the ball and this year dropped and Blake still pulls more rebounds than josh. And u can always pull some from of advanced stat to try and prove a point but let me shoe you the pitfall of all this crap you just went through.....what point guard does josh play with and what point guard does Blake play with? joshs assist percentage woukd drop drastically if he played with Chris Paul, Joe has led this team in assists for a while now.....that should tell you something. Point blank josh is not on blakes level offensively, he doesn't rebound the ball like Blake does, IF he's a better passer it damn sure isn't by much (very debateable), but josh is a better defender no doubt.

[MaceCase]

The pitfalls of using basic statistics to prove your point.

Let's take your premise that Blake Griffin is just as good of a passer as Josh Smith. Let's define assists percentage first. Assists percentage is the estimated percentage of teammate field goals that the player assisted when he was on the floor.

Josh's assist percentage this year is 20.5%. That means for every 100 assisted field goals his team has when he is on the floor, he has 20.5 of them. Josh is 4th among all forwards in this statistics and first among all power forwards. Blake Griffin has a 15.8% assist percentage. He is 8th among all fowards and 4th among power forwards. Josh Smith is the only power forward in the NBA that has a 20+ PER, 20+ DRB%, and 20+ AST%. Blake isn't a bad passer, but this should end this idea that he's at least as good as Josh as a passer.

Josh is also 2nd among all power forwards in both block percentage and steals percentage. He tied for 3rd with Carlos Boozer in defensive rating. He is 1st among all power forwards in defensive win shares. This is why the choice between the two is a lot closer than what many of you who are looking at basic statistics make it out to be. While Blake is a more efficient shooter, Josh is by far the more efficient defender. Blake does not have a significant enough edge in rebounding to really say that he's a markedly better scorer and rebounder than Josh is.

The problem is that even by advance statistics Blake as a sophomore is well ahead of Smith. You want to look at one half of the ball and then only certain stats to boost Josh but then not count that Blake does enough defensively and then actually is miles better offensively making his overall impact greater.

PER

23 vs. 21.1

Offensive rating

112 vs 101 over here Blake also has a higher differential between his Offensive rating and Defensive rating (+8) than Smith (+5)

WinShares

7.7 vs 5.9

WS48

.178 vs .138

Blake is just better overall because people tend to overrate Josh's defense while coincidentally underrating just how detrimental he is offensively. Average both sides out and you'll see that it isn't a contest and it's not even as if Blake holds a greater physical advantage either, he may be 1.5" taller than Josh but has a .75" less wingspan and full 1.5" less standing reach meaning that Josh is actually superior physically.

[AHawks89]

Good question, but does Griffen bring the blocks & assist too? Griffen does bring the dunks and fans though. I would love to see what Smoove could with CP3.

[PureGreatness]

I personally will take Josh over Griffin as of 2012...But the stats sure as hell aint looking good in his favor lol

[thecampster]

Offense is nice, but Defense wins.

[MaceCase]

If Blake is much better than Josh, then how is it that the lowly Hawks have the same record as the Clippers especially since they have the great Chris Paul playing point guard with that team?

It's been generally accepted that the West has greater competition than the East for many years now. This seems to be true this year again considering that the 10th seeded Western team has a higher winning percentage than the 8th seeded Eastern team.

[Peoriabird]

It's been generally accepted that the West has greater competition than the East for many years now. This seems to be true this year again considering that the 10th seeded Western team has a higher winning percentage than the 8th seeded Eastern team.

Its not that much different but this is par for the course when it comes to Paul on this board. When Paul loses it can't be because of Paul but other factors like his teammates or strength of schedule etc. The fact is the Clippers have probably had the easiest schedule not only winning percentage wise but game schedule wise also but yet they are no better than this Hawk team that people criticize so much.

[ag82]

I would take griffin in a heartbeat. Josh may have more overall skills, but blake has the ones I want in a pf. Plus we would get much better attendance with blake.Josh just frustrates me too much. I think blake will work hard and improve on the things he needs to improve on. Have you seen how that guy works out? And regarding the record.. This is their first season together with hardly any training camp and they have a similar record to our 5 year core. How can you try to use that against them? I'm impressed with what they have done (also they have a terrible coach).

[ag82]

I should be a bit more specific about the skills comment (and can't edit on my phone).A few of the things josh is better at are things that get him in trouble. He can kind of handle the ball so he sometimes thinks he is apg. He can kind of shoot so he thinks he is a sg.I think if you asked any gm in the league which player they would take to build their championship roster, 99% are going to pick blake.

[jy23]

Offense is nice, but Defense wins.

Actually rebounding wins championships.

[ag82]

You guys didnt happen to watch the finals last year, did you? Sure tyson chandlers defense played a huge role but miami is probably the best defense in the league and they were dismantled by dirk.The better defensive team lost.

[Peoriabird]

Of course its the coach, the lack of practice time, the shortened season or whatever. But when the Hawks have the exact same record, we suddenly have a hall of fame coach, no new players, no injuries so we should have a better record than the Clippers...While the Clippers are showing just how good they will be once they hire LD and get more practice time together.

[Buzzard]

This should be pinned as a reminder of how much we over value our own players. One poster said 99% of the GMs in the league would take Blake over Smoove, it is 100% and that includes our GM.Blake Griffin has a chance to do something special in this league. Really special, like maybe one day taking a scoring title while playing PF. You can probably count the number of players that have done that at his position on one hand....Comparing Blake to Smoove is a lot like comparing Nash to Bibby. Forget about it already...

Edited April 11, 2012 by Buzzard

[niremetal]

I should be a bit more specific about the skills comment (and can't edit on my phone).A few of the things josh is better at are things that get him in trouble. He can kind of handle the ball so he sometimes thinks he is apg. He can kind of shoot so he thinks he is a sg.I think if you asked any gm in the league which player they would take to build their championship roster, 99% are going to pick blake.

/thread