Bold moves are needed

[MaceCase]

LOL! You are conveniently overlooking per minute numbers, volume and efficiency to make your argument. Adjust for that and you'll notice he's 4th in scoring, 2nd in shot attempts, obviously 4th in FG%, 4th in 3point FG%, 5th in rebounds, 5th in assists, 5th steals, 6th in blocks, 5th in TS%, 4th in PER, tied for last in WS48, etc. etc. etc. The Playoffs tell the same story. These are all on court evaluations so if a player is consistently lagging behind his peers on the court while making a higher salary........well I'd say it becomes rather relevant because one should ask the question of what exactly is it that you are paying for? But hey at least he's beating out the 6 years older, in need of surgery geezer Ray Allen.

And oh yea, because the belief is that it somehow validates an argument.

Bulls coach and former coach of the year winner Tom Thibodeau.

...The thing I’ve said about Marvin Williams is he’s one of the most underrated players in the league.

http://www.examiner.com/article/hawks-could-prove-an-even-tougher-out-the-second-time-around-for-bulls

[Joker]

Marvin Williams is underrated as hell.He is one of the better guys at off ball movement in the NBA for SF.Excellent spot up shooter.Excellent cutter.Very good defender.If Atlanta used him correctly, they would have their own Tayshawn Prince. It's not like Marvin won't shoot the ball, he just doesn't demand for it.

[MaceCase]

He also leads the team in WinShares per48 seeing as everyone has become an advanced stat fiend in defense of Josh but my point on Marvin was simply a tangent and pointing out the folly in trying to use what a coach says as gospel even in the face of overwhelming fact.

[Joker]

He also leads the team in WinShares per48 seeing as everyone has become an advanced stat fiend in defense of Josh but my point on Marvin was simply a tangent and pointing out the folly in trying to use what a coach says as gospel even in the face of overwhelming fact.

But it was the truth. In fact, Joe being a tough cover is true which is why he is always double teamed as well as game-planed for and is a 6th time All Star.

[Supporter]

Joe's efficiency is decreased because of the system that we run and the players that surround him. Give him guys like Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Lebron James, Chris Bosh, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Kevin Durant, and Russell Westbrook and no doubt his efficiency would increase dramatically.

[Joker]

Joe's efficiency is decreased because of the system that we run and the players that surround him. Give him guys like Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Lebron James, Chris Bosh, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Kevin Durant, and Russell Westbrook and no doubt his efficiency would increase dramatically.

I agree. When he had Jamal, his efficiency would be better as well. Joe just needs to stop being doubled so much. Meaning we need a #1 option on offense. Until that changes, Joe will never have great numbers as his game looks live. Joe when doubled is bad, bad, bad. That's why teams do it. He can't make you pay.

[MaceCase]

Joe's efficiency is decreased because of the system that we run and the players that surround him. Give him guys like Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Lebron James, Chris Bosh, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Kevin Durant, and Russell Westbrook and no doubt his efficiency would increase dramatically.

Ah, the "system" and "teammate" argument. We can use that for anyone on this roster but the biggest difference is that for everybody but Joe their contract doesn't actually interfere with the ability to get any of those guys seeing as he's getting paid equal to and greater than the majority of them. It's also funny that he had his most efficient years playing in less of a system for Woody than he did when he had Nash, Amar'e, and Marion.

But it was the truth. In fact, Joe being a tough cover is true which is why he is always double teamed as well as game-planed for and is a 6th time All Star.

Herein lies the problem. Facts prove Joe being the easiest to cover out of those guys considering he seems to be the one that defenses affect the most but coaches adore him. Facts prove that Josh should be deserving of at least a half dozen awards but coaches despise him. Fans despises Marvin yet facts and a coach prove him to be a decent player.

What should be given the greatest amount of weight? Either way you can't tilt too much in one direction because people will feel confident that their criteria can excuse away the other side but the answer is actually very simple.

If you can even debate the subject on the player then that player just isn't good enough.

[Joker]

Ah, the "system" and "teammate" argument. We can use that for anyone on this roster but the biggest difference is that for everybody but Joe their contract doesn't actually interfere with the ability to get any of those guys seeing as he's getting paid equal to and greater than the majority of them. It's also funny that he had his most efficient years playing in less of a system for Woody than he did when he had Nash, Amar'e, and Marion.

Herein lies the problem. Facts prove Joe being the easiest to cover out of those guys considering he seems to be the one that defenses affect the most but coaches adore him. Facts prove that Josh should be deserving of at least a half dozen awards but coaches despise him. Fans despises Marvin yet facts and a coach prove him to be a decent player.

What should be given the greatest amount of weight? Either way you can't tilt too much in one direction because people will feel confident that their criteria can excuse away the other side but the answer is actually very simple.

If you can even debate the subject on the player then that player just isn't good enough.

Fans don't like Marvin for CP3 and Deron. Nothing else, nothing more. He doesn't fit under the current personnel grouping but he isn't the first and won't be the last.

Joe isn't the easiest to cover but he is the easily to game-plan for by his personnel grouping. By himself, Allen is the easiest then Joe, Harden and toughest is Wade.

Smoove is loathe by coaches because look at his game. He isn't consistent within a game by game basis. He can win you and lose you games. He doesn't always play to his strengths and doesn't know his limitations. It's hard to win championships that way. He does make you much better because his impact is that great.

You are starting to asked questions with obvious answers but want a different answer. Joe's contract is a minor issue right now. It will be major in the future but right now it's minor to what are the Hawks problem.

The Hawks have a personnel grouping issue as well. That's Josh, Al, Marvin and Joe don't fit.

You need a PnR playmaking PG which solves 4 major issues.

Josh has a lot of value. He creates issues but he creates strengths.

Issue = Personnel grouping

Solution = PnR playmaking PG

It's that simple. You lose a defensive anchor and a rim protector. You lack size and depth. Horford defensive versatility means guys who lack lateral quickness can play with Al without being a defensive liability.

Solution = Sign a true center with size who can protect the rim and grab boards regardless of his skill level.

This isn't that hard. The Hawks aren't that far. They have pieces, they just don't have correct pieces. I would compare us to the Pistons before they landed Sheed. Sheed was the final piece to their puzzle. Ours is a PnR PG. We get that and things change for the better.

[Swatguy]

The Porblem Swat.What If Joe says I want to win and he takes the MLE to play for LAC or Miami. Our owners will still owe Joe 14 Million dollars.Understand who our Owners are... Our Owners are guys who refused to pay 1 Million dollars in LT to get a good player. They refused to pay 3 Million in LT to get Shaq.Do you tihnk they will pay 15 Million to watch Joe play for somebody else.On top of that, do you think they would then approach paying more money to find Joe's replacement?That's the problem in your thinking. There's no win for our owners in this plan. It sounds good for a fan... We say... yeah, get rid of Joe's contract from the cap and we can get anybody. The owners however (who are thrifty) are saying, why are we paying Joe 15 million to be a Clipper or to play for the Heat or to play with Brooklyn???Now Swat, let me make it clearer for you.You just bought a nice Big Body Benz. You love it but the note on that bad boy is about $1100 per month for 6 yrs. You have a friend that says he will take the car off your hands and he will pay $300 per month for it. IF you do the deal with your friend, You still have to pay $800 per month for the next 4 years for the Benz.. and guess what... You still need a car. What do you do?And if you get a new car, are you going to get that brand new 2012 Aston Martin DB9 convertible Volante Luxury edition?What you should hope for in an amnesty is NEW OWNERS.

Well Diesel, in amnesting Joe the first offer is to those teams under the cap. The "undercap" teams bid against each other. If an undercap team bids for him, his contract is cosigned. Joe will not have an oportunity to chose his suitor unless no team bids for his services. I'm betting some undercap team will bid. The Hawks of course will need to due diligence in finding out the "undercap team for Joe" market.Secondly, with Deron in tow (basically for Joe), ASG will have a windfall at the turnstile, TV/League revenues and the such. It will take big minded, bold movements to get to be competent as a contender. The increase of these revenues will offset the LT. We would be siting pretty by making these moves.

[Swatguy]

Well Diesel, in amnesting Joe the first offer is to those teams under the cap. The "undercap" teams bid against each other. If an undercap team bids for him, his contract is cosigned. Joe will not have an oportunity to chose his suitor unless no team bids for his services. I'm betting some undercap team will bid. The Hawks of course will need to due diligence in finding out the "undercap team for Joe" market.Secondly, with Deron in tow (basically for Joe), ASG will have a windfall at the turnstile, TV/League revenues and the such. It will take big minded, bold movements to get to be competent as a contender. The increase of these revenues will offset the LT. We would be siting pretty by making these moves.

If the Hawks have a team which can draw 17,000 and increase the average ticket by 8 dollars, they will see 13 million from the gate alone. That covers JJ's amnested debt.Now imagine Deron Williams driving this Hawks team. Draft Melo and start Zaza.ZazaAlJoshWillie/Tracey/bpaDeron

[NineOhTheRino]

You are still not getting it. We are OVER the salary cap and at the luxury. Removing 100% of JJ's salary will only get us 13 mill UNDER the cap because we are so far OVER being at the luxury tax thresh hold. 13 mill will not be Derons starting salary, bank on it.

Even though this is not his hometown he may be willing to take a hometown discount to get an opportunity to play with a future NBA champion & HOFer in Joe Johnson.Pipe dream?

[Admin]

You could increase ticket prices $20 and even if fans paid it, the ASG are STILL NOT going to use that money to pay Joe ~$10 million to play for someone else.

[NineOhTheRino]

You could increase ticket prices $20 and even if fans paid it, the ASG are STILL NOT going to use that money to pay Joe ~$10 million to play for someone else.

I would happily pay a Joe Johnson tax. I would go as far as adding an additional $10 to my monthly cable bill.

[Swatguy]

Even though this is not his hometown he may be willing to take a hometown discount to get an opportunity to play with a future NBA champion & HOFer in Joe Johnson.Pipe dream?

What are you talking about? The proposition is getting Deron by amnesting Joe, not getting Deron to play with Joe. Dolfan you suppose the ASG will opperate in pride rather than good sense? Paying a portion of Joe's salary is a shifting of assets. The debt is relieved by additional revenues. That is just good business.

[Admin]

I would happily pay a Joe Johnson tax. I would go as far as adding an additional $10 to my monthly cable bill.

LOL! Better watch out, your ISP are probably monitoring your posts and if you get your internet through the cable company you might just see that $10 increase anyway now ;)

[Admin]

What are you talking about? The proposition is getting Deron by amnesting Joe, not getting Deron to play with Joe. Dolfan you suppose the ASG will opperate in pride rather than good sense? Paying a portion of Joe's salary is a shifting of assets. The debt is relieved by additional revenues. That is just good business.

It's not good business to send out a guy who's got 2-3 high level years left in him and actually pay him up to $10 million a season to play for someone else. Swapping Deron for Joe isn't going make us a finals team and nothing short of that will fill up Philips arena even at the current ticket prices, let alone increasing them during a recession. The bottom line is that whether you or I or anyone think it's good business sense or not to amnesty Joe, the ASG aren't going to do it this year and if you have any doubts about that just look back to last years draft when we had to sell a draft pick just to bring in another couple million bucks.

[Admin]

of course you have to fill the roster. Are you saying the roster has to be filled to sign a FA? What exactly is not legal? You have 19 mil in cap space and you cannot sign a FA before you have x amount of players? I do understand a cap hold for the draftee is required (and I forgot about it) which on a 23rd pick is probably $1.4 mil.Clarify if you can, your statement ("Your method is not legal under the cap.").

You have to fill the roster via cap holds for the empty slots. I don't know what the amount is but it's probably about $750-850k per empty slot, which would mean we'd have 8 empty slots after amnestying JJ which would mean about $6 million in cap holds for the empty spots.

[Swatguy]

It's not good business to send out a guy who's got 2-3 high level years left in him and actually pay him up to $10 million a season to play for someone else. Swapping Deron for Joe isn't going make us a finals team and nothing short of that will fill up Philips arena even at the current ticket prices, let alone increasing them during a recession. The bottom line is that whether you or I or anyone think it's good business sense or not to amnesty Joe, the ASG aren't going to do it this year and if you have any doubts about that just look back to last years draft when we had to sell a draft pick just to bring in another couple million bucks.

Joe is the 7th best SG and the 8th best SF in the league. Deron is top 3 in his prime. How much better are we with Deron? It really cant be measured but for sure Much Much better. This is the quality and leadership missing. Joe is a limited, diminishing talent offering little leadership.

[Admin]

Joe is the 7th best SG and the 8th best SF in the league. Deron is top 3 in his prime. How much better are we with Deron? It really cant be measured but for sure Much Much better. This is the quality and leadership missing. Joe is a limited, diminishing talent offering little leadership.

Deron isn't a leader either so that's negligible. He's also just as much of a ball hog as Joe is. Deron is certainly better but he's not that much better that it will make a difference at the gates.

[Swatguy]

Deron isn't a leader either so that's negligible. He's also just as much of a ball hog as Joe is. Deron is certainly better but he's not that much better that it will make a difference at the gates.

You are calling a Point Guard, "Ball Hog". Interesting. You speak of a without a doubt best three PG in the league, "isn't a leader either". Puzzling. DI believe the newness of Deron would create a tremendous buzz locally and league wise. I'm writing about moving the Third best player on this team and replacing him with a guy that would be the best player on the team.There really is no comparison. Deron is a player, a baller, a guy that don't shrink. Joe Sucks often and is getting worse. Edited May 31, 2012 by Swatguy