Bold moves are needed

[Admin]

You are calling a Point Guard, "Ball Hog". Interesting. You speak of a without a doubt best three PG in the league, "isn't a leader either". Puzzling. DI believe the newness of Deron would create a tremendous buzz locally and league wise. I'm writing about moving the Third best player on this team and replacing him with a guy that would be the best player on the team.There really is no comparison. Deron is a player, a baller, a guy that don't shrink. Joe Sucks often and is getting worse.

Deron is a ball hog in the sense that he takes A LOT of shots for a PG. He has never been known as a leader and he's the reason that one of the greatest coaches ever left a team he had coached for decades. Again, Deron is a good player and I've wanted him since the 05 draft, but you're making him out to be a guy that the casual fans will come out to see and that's just not going to happen. You get Kobe, Dwight, D-Wade, etc. types of guys and yes those casual fans will absolutely come out and even though Deron is arguably in their league as a player, he's not a guy who sells tickets to casual fans.

[AHF]

http://www.faniq.com...ause-Blog-42532

Amnesty Clause Basics

[*]Each team is permitted to waive 1 player and have 100% of the player’s salary removed for Cap and Tax purposes

[*]Once a player is waived under the Amnesty Clause, they are placed in a modified waiver process available only to teams under the Salary Cap.

[*]Teams with room under the cap can then submit a claim on players by bidding to pay a portion of the player’s previous salary

[*]Once part of a player’s salary is claimed by a new team, the old team will continue to pay the remaining amount (though it won’t count against the Cap or Tax).

We can slide Deron into Joe's salary. To get a Hawes will mean menuevering, shifting assets and perhaps going into the tax. Again, a S&T with Philly and perhaps they will take Marvin and a pick.

I don't know how much more plainly to say this, but I will spell it out in more detail by quoting an earlier post on this subject which quotes an even earlier post on this subject:

You can't spend 17 million if you amnesty Joe. You have to account for the rest of the roster spots as well as the five remaining people on contract.

Here is a previous post of mine on the subject:

Here is how amnesty works.

First, the people who can be amnestied are only those who were under contract with the team trying to amnesty them at the time the CBA was signed. So JJ qualifies as long as the Hawks have him (if he is traded his new team can't use amnesty on him).

Second, you have to pay the amnestied player every penny of his contract with one exception. The amnestied player goes into an auction where only teams under the cap can bid on him. Every dollar they bid is a dollar they pay instead of the Hawks. So JJ is set to make $19,752,645 next season. If the Hawks cut him via amnesty and a team under the cap bids $6M for him, the Hawks only owe him $13,752,645 for next year. It is the same for the rest of his contract although I am not certain how bidding works (if it is $6M per year or if they can bid different amounts for future years).

Third, you get cap relief from cutting the player but you don't necessarily get to use the full amount of his contract towards signing new free agents. Next season the Hawks have:

$60,921,972 in salaries committed to 6 players

If they fill 7 spots with minimum salaries of $762,195, it pushes the total cap committment to:

$66,257,337 for 13 players

If the league's economic projections hold steady, the cap will increase to $60Mfor 2012-13.

If we cut Joe Johnson via amnesty, it will reduce our cap by $19,752,645 and bring the "JJ Amnestied Cap Number" to 46,504,692which will free up a total of $13,495,308 to spend on free agents. If you go after a "star" then that means a roster of:

Jeff Teague/Minimum Salary

$13.5M Player/Minimum Salary

Marvin Williams/Minimum Salary

Josh Smith/Minimum salary

Al Horford/Zaza Pachulia

11-13: Minimum salary players

For this roster, the owners will pay:

$60M + $13,752,645 (assumes Joe goes for $6M/year to another team) = $73,752,645

If the owners use the MLE or something to increase that payroll, the total amount they are paying will be closer to $80 million.

For reference, here are the types of players that you could have gotten for $13.5M this offseason:

Nene

Caron Butler + JJ Barea

Grant Hill + Glen Davis

Carl Landry + Jonas Jerebko

etc.

* * * *

Are the owners going to be willing to pay JJ for not playing for them and sign up to an amnestied payroll structure, not a prayer for 2012-13.

THE HAWKS CAN'T SIGN DERON SIMPLY BY AMNESTYING JJ. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

[Admin]

I don't know how much more plainly to say this, but I will spell it out in more detail by quoting an earlier post on this subject which quotes an even earlier post on this subject:THE HAWKS CAN'T SIGN DERON SIMPLY BY AMNESTYING JJ. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Yep unfortunately that's been difficult to get people to understand. Unless you really believe he's going to sign here for far less than market value there is zero chance of it happening.

[Sothron]

I can't believe this is still being debated over. There is no chance the Hawks amnesty Joe this summer and there is no way Deron Williams is taking less money to come here.

[Swatguy]

I don't know how much more plainly to say this, but I will spell it out in more detail by quoting an earlier post on this subject which quotes an even earlier post on this subject:ter wayTHE HAWKS CAN'T SIGN DERON SIMPLY BY AMNESTYING JJ. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

It seems to me you are filling the roster to the cap then amnesting Joe and deducting the cap. I believe there is a better way to achieve my desires. By amnesting Joe first the cap is reduced by his salary. That brings the cap to $41,169,327 for 5 players leaving $19,830,673.So, sign Deron starting his salary at $17 million and leave $2.8 under the cap. Then there is the space under LT (threshold) and the MLE.Can this be a solution? Edited May 31, 2012 by Swatguy

[Admin]

It seems to me you are filling the roster to the cap then amnesting Joe and deducting the cap. I believe there is a better way to achieve my desires. By amnesting Joe first the cap is reduced by his salary. That brings the cap to $41,169,327 for 5 players leaving $19,830,673.So, sign Deron starting his salary at $17 million and leave $2.8 under the cap. Then there is the space under LT (threshold) and the MLE.Can this be a solution?

HF or one of the experts can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you have to factor in cap holds for every empty roster spot and a cap hold for your 1st round draft pick BEFORE you can count how much money you'll have to use in FA. That's where AHF gets his number of only 13 million and change.

[MaceCase]

You are either under the cap or you are under the luxury cap. You can't just spend all the way up to the lux cap line from being below the regular cap and the MLE is also no longer available to you.

[Admin]

You are either under the cap or you are under the luxury cap. You can't just spend all the way up to the lux cap line from being below the regular cap and the MLE is also no longer available to you.

Actually I believe HF mentioned that you do still have a type of MLE available to you after you go over the cap.

[MaceCase]

HF or one of the experts can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you have to factor in cap holds for every empty roster spot and a cap hold for your 1st round draft pick BEFORE you can count how much money you'll have to use in FA. That's where AHF gets his number of only 13 million and change.

As the Fonz would say, correctamundo.

[MaceCase]

Actually I believe HF mentioned that you do still have a type of MLE available to you after you go over the cap.

No, the MLE is an exception that you have to renounce if you want to utilize the full capspace underneath the regular cap. So say the cap is 58 mil and you have 50 mil in salary you'd have to renounce the MLE otherwise you'd actually only have 3 mil in cap space and not 8 which puts further kinks in Swats plan. You can't just spend all the way up to the cap and then utilize the MLE too so essentially it's treated like caphold within itself. Edited May 31, 2012 by MaceCase

[Admin]

No, the MLE is an exception that you have to renounce if you want to utilize the full capspace underneath the regular cap. So say the cap is 58 mil and you have 50 mil in salary you'd have to renounce the MLE otherwise you'd actually only have 3 mil in cap space and not 8 which puts further kinks in Swats plan. You can't just spend all the way up to the cap and then utilize the MLE too so essentially it's treated like caphold within itself.

Are you referencing the new CBA though? I'm certain that HF said in another topic a month or so ago that there is a type of exception that you can use after spending up to the cap that allows you to sign additional players. It's not a MLE but something similar.

[AHF]

It seems to me you are filling the roster to the cap then amnesting Joe and deducting the cap. I believe there is a better way to achieve my desires. By amnesting Joe first the cap is reduced by his salary. That brings the cap to $41,169,327 for 5 players leaving $19,830,673.So, sign Deron starting his salary at $17 million and leave $2.8 under the cap. Then there is the space under LT (threshold) and the MLE.Can this be a solution?

This can't be a solution if you follow the cap rules. For cap purposes you always have to fill the roster with minimum dollar players.Your method is not legal under the cap. It is just wishful thinking.

[Swatguy]

This can't be a solution if you follow the cap rules. For cap purposes you always have to fill the roster with minimum dollar players.Your method is not legal under the cap. It is just wishful thinking.

of course you have to fill the roster. Are you saying the roster has to be filled to sign a FA? What exactly is not legal? You have 19 mil in cap space and you cannot sign a FA before you have x amount of players? I do understand a cap hold for the draftee is required (and I forgot about it) which on a 23rd pick is probably $1.4 mil.Clarify if you can, your statement ("Your method is not legal under the cap.").

[Nicholasp27]

You dont actually sign players before spending on deron, but the amount you can give deron is lowered by cap holds for players that you are going to have to sign...they don't let you pretend to spend 0 on filling out roster...they treat it as signing a min player which is the least you can spendThere should be a sticky FAQ on amnesty that clearly states that Amnestying JJ doesn't give us much to spend...we can't even get enough of a player to replace JJ...that's why we had to re-sign him, because letting him walk didn't help us anyway

[AHF]

of course you have to fill the roster. Are you saying the roster has to be filled to sign a FA? What exactly is not legal? You have 19 mil in cap space and you cannot sign a FA before you have x amount of players? I do understand a cap hold for the draftee is required (and I forgot about it) which on a 23rd pick is probably $1.4 mil.Clarify if you can, your statement ("Your method is not legal under the cap.").

As others said, they use a place holder for the guys you must sign called a "cap hold." If you didn't do this, every team would wait to resign their own free agents until they went out and signed new people so they could use their bird rights, etc. to effectively manuever around the cap. Even if you renounce all your free agents, you have to account for any open roster spots up to a minimum of 13 with minimum salary cap holds. The earlier post I quoted again has that detail in it.

[Swatguy]

As others said, they use a place holder for the guys you must sign called a "cap hold." If you didn't do this, every team would wait to resign their own free agents until they went out and signed new people so they could use their bird rights, etc. to effectively manuever around the cap. Even if you renounce all your free agents, you have to account for any open roster spots up to a minimum of 13 with minimum salary cap holds. The earlier post I quoted again has that detail in it.

I see. So to get a Deron we wuld have to shed even more of the cap. Which means a scenario of moving Marvin and Teague for say, future picks. I believe it is still worth investigating because we are going nowhere with what we got and Deron is big time talent and available.

[Nicholasp27]

So you want to amnesty joe and trade our talent for future picks for the LONG SHOT that deron will want to sign with our gutted team????

[Swatguy]

So you want to amnesty joe and trade our talent for future picks for the LONG SHOT that deron will want to sign with our gutted team????

Of course there would have to be an agreement with Deron. With Deron would we need Teague? I think not. Marvin...cmon

[Nicholasp27]

You took away joe as wellDeron/min/min/smoove/horford with zaza and 7 vet mins on benchWe would have to trade smoove for 2 serviceable wing starters (kmart/scola) to be able to trYou took away joe as wellDeron/min/min/smoove/horford with zaza and 7 vet mins on benchWe would have to trade smoove for 2 serviceable wing starters (kmart/scola) to be able to trot out a decent starting 5 when healthy with all vet mins on bench

[Swatguy]

You took away joe as wellDeron/min/min/smoove/horford with zaza and 7 vet mins on benchWe would have to trade smoove for 2 serviceable wing starters (kmart/scola) to be able to trYou took away joe as wellDeron/min/min/smoove/horford with zaza and 7 vet mins on benchWe would have to trade smoove for 2 serviceable wing starters (kmart/scola) to be able to trot out a decent starting 5 when healthy with all vet mins on bench

Zaza startswith:AlJoshDeronRoll with vetmins:WilliePargoTracyIvanDraft Fab Melo or the best available wing.Joe is not the answer nor the piece of the puzzle. Get that franchise point.