If you could, would trade JJ for a lottery pick?

[Diesel]

I disagree. Acquiring Harris put them in a position to get Williams. Now with money to spend and a few solid players on the roster, they are in a great position to buy themselves back into contention.

Here's the hindsight machine in action. So let's play the hindsight game. Harris made them bad enough to land Favors in the draft and with Harris and Favors they could entice a dysfunctional Utah team to give up it's dysfunctional player. So that's the roadmap you want to take.. Not to mention that Now Williams is hoping to get out of NJ unless they can make a move to get the most sought after Free Agent since Lebron.

OK.. Let me crank up the foresight machine for you...

What will it mean when Deron leaves NJ and D-12 refuses to go to NJ?

The Harris for Kidd trade would equal...

A high Lottery pick budding Pf lost.

A championship PG lost.

Harris lost.

and 2 yrs rental of Deron Williams that only got you Crash Wallace in the end.

Like I said... Jason Kidd got his ring!

[EazyRoc]

It's not necessarily hindsight. I can't say I know what was going through the mind of their GM, but its hard to argue against trading a solid veteran for a solid younger player. That younger is a better trade piece in the future 9 times out of 10.

[Diesel]

It's not necessarily hindsight. I can't say I know what was going through the mind of their GM, but its hard to argue against trading a solid veteran for a solid younger player. That younger is a better trade piece in the future 9 times out of 10.

Sounds like you'd do Danny Manning for Dominique all over again?How about Deke for Theo?How about Smith for JJ/JR?How long will it take for you to learn?

[EazyRoc]

I would do Kobe for Vlade. How about Hamilton for Stackhouse ? Or Webber for Richmond ? I know you would do Joe for Tony Delk. Ron Artest for Jalen Rose.

[Jbrinson]

I would trade joe for a lottery pick and a 1st round pick next year. I'd trade josh a lottery pick and a current player. Like trading josh to new orleans for the #10 pick and trevor ariza and maybe their second round pick as well

[TheNorthCydeRises]

First of all, Joe Johnson has never been even close to athletic as Vince Carter. Second: Joe Johnson is easy to guard. If his jumpshot is not falling, he's next to useless. Third: I believe that Charles Barkley said that a team with Joe Johnson as their most highly paid player is not going to go anywhere. He's absolutely right. As long as Joe Johnson is here with his team-killing contract, this team is going to be stuck in neutral. HE'S JUST NOT THAT GOOD!!!!! I don't understand why some of you guys are so blind to that FACT. In fact, I bet this team could lose Joe Johnson for an entire season, and not be much worse off. Joe is just not that much of a difference-maker. Joe Johnson would be a good 2nd option, and a very good 3rd option. As a 1st option, he's just decent. It's nothing personal against Joe Johnson. It's just common sense. You can clearly see with your own two eyes that Johnson is not an elite player. You can see that he's terrible with double-teams. You can see that he can't beat a double-team because he's too unathletic. You don't see him attacking the basket. You don't see him getting to the freethrow line. You don't see him posting guys up and getting easy baskets around the rim. Again, you can clearly see that Joe Johnson is not an elite player. Yet, he's getting paid as if he's one of the top-5 players in the league. That is not a formula for success. I don't know why you guys can't seem to grasp that simple concept.

And despite all of this, he still averaged about 18.8 ppg - shot 45.4% FG - dished out 3.9 assists and shot 38.8% 3FG. You know how many players in the league did that in 2011 - 12?

ZERO

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=18.7&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=.45&c3stat=fg3_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=.38&c4stat=ast_per_g&c4comp=gt&c4val=3.8&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

If you slightly reduced the parameters to 18 ppg - 45% FG - 38% 3FG - 3 assists . . . that list grows to only 3 players

- Kevin Durant . . ( Superstar )

- Joe Johnson . . ( a garbage player according to some )

- Kyrie Irving . . ( the #1 pick last year )

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=18&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=.45&c3stat=fg3_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=.38&c4stat=ast_per_g&c4comp=gt&c4val=3&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

The same thing that applies to Josh Smith, applies to Joe Johnson. Do you know how many players averaged 18 ppg - 9 rebs - 3 assists - and 1.5 blocks?

TWO

- Blake Griffin

- Josh Smith

When you're talking about "making over" the Hawks, this is the type of production that you have to replace. If you're replacing Joe Johnson, you better get a guy ( or multiple players ) who can not only create their own shot, but also play good defense and have enough awareness to create for others.

What guy in this year's upcoming draft has the potential to be a Joe Johnson? The only guy I see is Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. And he's a projected top 5 pick.

What guy in this year's upcoming draft has the potential to be a Josh Smith? You know what? I don't see A ONE.

But some of you guys are so crazed and worried about what the potential of JJ making 93 million dollars next year, that you're willing to dismantle the entire team and start over, despite this team simply being out of balance . . and not in decline.

The truth about Joe Johnson's season last year, is that Josh Smith took the reigns as the #1 option in usage and shot attempts. It wasn't because JJ was inefficient though. In fact, he had his 2nd most efficient year in ATL The only thing that was in decline about that dude last year, was his shot attempts ( 15.5 per game ) which is the lowest he had in ATL. And I place a lot of that decline on Drew trying to develop his bench, instead of running plays for his best players.

All I know is that trading JJ simply to get from out from under his contract is idiotic. The cap room of his departing contract isn't going to guarantee anything. The time to move JJ will be in 2 years, in which you could sell to a team close to a championship that a veteran guard like JJ may be the final piece. At that point, they'll be willing to give up lesser players to get him. Even in this new era of the CBA, teams desperate to win titles will make the same moves they've always had.

You don't trade JJ for a draft pick, unless you know for sure you can be in the top 5 and get either his replacement, or a starter quality player from Day 1.

You don't trade Josh Smith for a draft pick, unless it's the same parameters.

Some of you guys want to do the same thing Babcock did in 1999, when the goal was to simply get rid of Smitty and Mookie just because they failed in the playoffs. Forget bringing in the RIGHT PLAYERS, they just got rid of them.

Teams that make that mistake pay for it DEARLY for years to come.

Dang some "hope" draft pick or some "hope" cap space. Trade those guys for other ESTABLISHED NBA talent that can come in and help us IMMEDIATELY.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Sounds like you'd do Danny Manning for Dominique all over again?How about Deke for Theo?How about Smith for JJ/JR?How long will it take for you to learn?

LOL . . School them D.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

For all of you wanting to trade JJ and Josh for draft picks, I want to see a DISTINCT vision of how the Hawks should be built. Just don't throw out "trade them for a 1st round pick", come up with a vision of how you want the Hawks to be built . . and if your vision will have us be better than what we are right now.Saying that we're going to build around Horford and Teague isn't specific enough. WHO are you going to put around Horford and Teague? Who is going to be our main scorer? What is going to be our team identity?Just don't go blindly into this.

[ryandauwalker]

For all of you wanting to trade JJ and Josh for draft picks, I want to see a DISTINCT vision of how the Hawks should be built. Just don't throw out "trade them for a 1st round pick", come up with a vision of how you want the Hawks to be built . . and if your vision will have us be better than what we are right now.Saying that we're going to build around Horford and Teague isn't specific enough. WHO are you going to put around Horford and Teague? Who is going to be our main scorer? What is going to be our team identity?Just don't go blindly into this.

I think the reasons behind people saying we need to trade Josh and JJ is not related to finding ways to replicate their production because as you put it, it will be a DAUNTING task. It is simply managing the massive risks that this franchise has which people tend to ignore.If pay JJ almost $22-26 million each year for the next few, we can't afford anybody and he'll be worn down. As a result, people are thinking of ways to mitigate that risk in the future by trading him.If Josh leaves next year and we get nothing for him, that would be catastrophic. As a result, people are thinking of ways to mitigate that risk in the future by trading him.

[Diesel]

I would do Kobe for Vlade. How about Hamilton for Stackhouse ? Or Webber for Richmond ? I know you would do Joe for Tony Delk. Ron Artest for Jalen Rose.

Show me a Kobe?

From what I understand you're trying to trade Joe for a mid lottery pick in a draft with one such player (#1). Here's the problem. You're trying to make a panick decision based on an unknown content.

Now let's examine your scenarios a little deeper shall we?

Lakers were a playoff team... but moving Vlade gave them Kobe and the money to sign Shaq who was coming off his 2nd finals appearance in a row.

Where is the Shaq in this trade?

Where is the Kobe?

Show me Webber?

Webber was the leader of the Fab Five. He was about as known a quantity as there was in basketball. However, when you delve deeper into why they traded Webber, it was because they were trying to clean up the image of their team. Webber had just had a drug arrest and this was the same time that they changed their name from Bullets to Wizards. In other words, it was politics. Show me a Webber that we can get for Joe Johnson? Are you saying, let's trade Joe for Lance Stephenson and a lotto pick?

Point is that you really have no plan. There's no focus. Just want to trade to clear room... When you start making business decisions instead of basketball decision, you are not concerned about winning anymore. SIMS NBA GM...

[Diesel]

I think the reasons behind people saying we need to trade Josh and JJ is not related to finding ways to replicate their production because as you put it, it will be a DAUNTING task. It is simply managing the massive risks that this franchise has which people tend to ignore.If pay JJ almost $22-26 million each year for the next few, we can't afford anybody and he'll be worn down. As a result, people are thinking of ways to mitigate that risk in the future by trading him.If Josh leaves next year and we get nothing for him, that would be catastrophic. As a result, people are thinking of ways to mitigate that risk in the future by trading him.

I don't disagree that something should be done but these knee jerk reactions that don't reflect a basketball court thought are symptomatic of what we have done in the past. Trading Nique (the team's franchise player) for Danny Manning comes to mind. This was a business decision gone bad. The goal was to get younger and save money. The result was catastrophic. Steve Smith for JR and JJ. Again.. getting younger was the goal. However, the result was catastrophic. We're still reeling from moves like this now because free agents don't trust us. Nique is in the Hall of Fame and Smitty won a ring and works at NBATV... and we're still feeling the effects of those two dumb moves.Because of that, we should tread carefully and at the least have a Basketball plan and not just a business plan.

[EazyRoc]

Show me a Kobe?

From what I understand you're trying to trade Joe for a mid lottery pick in a draft with one such player (#1). Here's the problem. You're trying to make a panick decision based on an unknown content.

Now let's examine your scenarios a little deeper shall we?

Lakers were a playoff team... but moving Vlade gave them Kobe and the money to sign Shaq who was coming off his 2nd finals appearance in a row.

Where is the Shaq in this trade?

Where is the Kobe?

Show me Webber?

Webber was the leader of the Fab Five. He was about as known a quantity as there was in basketball. However, when you delve deeper into why they traded Webber, it was because they were trying to clean up the image of their team. Webber had just had a drug arrest and this was the same time that they changed their name from Bullets to Wizards. In other words, it was politics. Show me a Webber that we can get for Joe Johnson? Are you saying, let's trade Joe for Lance Stephenson and a lotto pick?

Point is that you really have no plan. There's no focus. Just want to trade to clear room... When you start making business decisions instead of basketball decision, you are not concerned about winning anymore. SIMS NBA GM...

What the hell are you talking about ? You get arrogant on your little soapbox and lose track of what we were even talking about. Go back, re-read, and start over.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I think the reasons behind people saying we need to trade Josh and JJ is not related to finding ways to replicate their production because as you put it, it will be a DAUNTING task. It is simply managing the massive risks that this franchise has which people tend to ignore.If pay JJ almost $22-26 million each year for the next few, we can't afford anybody and he'll be worn down. As a result, people are thinking of ways to mitigate that risk in the future by trading him.If Josh leaves next year and we get nothing for him, that would be catastrophic. As a result, people are thinking of ways to mitigate that risk in the future by trading him.

But it has to be for the right player(s) that fits the team AND whatever team vision we have for the future. It just can't be for anybody, or just to get him off the books. That's why I say . . if you're going to trade these two guys, have a distinct plan of action to justify it. The decisions made by the Hawks in the past didn't have a plan behind it. Look at what the Smitty and Mookie trade had the Hawks doing:First off . . we lose our starting backourt and replaced them with JR Rider, Jimmy Jackson, Bimbo Coles, and a 1st round pick ( Jason Terry ). The Hawks rationale was to get younger and more athletic, and they did just that with these trades. Problem is, it killed team chemistry.- no true PG- inefficient high volume shooters- a BIG dropoff in defenseWe go from a starting lineup in 1999 ofPG - MookieG - SmittyF - Ty CorbinPF - Alan HendersonC - DikembeTo a starting lineup in 2000 ofPG - ColesG - JR RiderF - Jimmy JacksonPF - HendersonC - DikembeThat team went from 2nd in defensive rating . . to 25th. And despite trying to get better offensively, we actually got WORSE, going from 19th in offensive rating to 24th.So despite the Hawks having a struggling offensive team, but great defensive team that won 31 games ( 51 games in an 82 game season ) . . they decide to blow it up, and bring in some of the most inefficient offensive players in the league.And it lead to a cycle of the Hawks having to scramble and struggle just to get back to playoff level, finally taking a desperation move by Billy Knight to acquire Joe Johnson, to possibly get this team on track.What fans need to understand is that the thing that can keep your team relevant in this league, is being a good to great defensive team. So if you trade a defensive dynamo like a Mookie Blaylock, you better have a plan in place to replace what he does on the defensive end.And the same thing goes for Josh Smith. Even though I approve of a Josh + Marvin for Gasol trade, even I understand that you need a few defensive role players added to this squad to make up for the defense that Josh and Marvin will take with them.The team still has to be built right, regardless if you make trades for established players . . or make a variety of moves to acquire draft picks . . or dump players for cap space.If the Hawks mess up things starting this summer, this team could easily fall back into a 5 year abyss of not even making the playoffs, let alone being in contention of winning a championship.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I don't disagree that something should be done but these knee jerk reactions that don't reflect a basketball court thought are symptomatic of what we have done in the past. Trading Nique (the team's franchise player) for Danny Manning comes to mind. This was a business decision gone bad. The goal was to get younger and save money. The result was catastrophic. Steve Smith for JR and JJ. Again.. getting younger was the goal. However, the result was catastrophic. We're still reeling from moves like this now because free agents don't trust us. Nique is in the Hall of Fame and Smitty won a ring and works at NBATV... and we're still feeling the effects of those two dumb moves.Because of that, we should tread carefully and at the least have a Basketball plan and not just a business plan.

Diesel . . here is a GREAT ARTICLE written back when the Hawks traded Dikembe Mutumbo. It was a CNNSI.com article that talked about the Hawks bad decisions up until that point. It's a pretty good look at how this franchise literally messed up time after time, when a big decision had to be madehttp://sportsillustr...itaintso_hawks/And remember, this goes back to 2001. This doesn't even include- trading the #3 pick ( which ended up being Pau Gasol ) for Shareef Abdur-Rahim- drafting Marvin in 2005 instead of Chris Paul- missing on the Shelden Williams pick- re-signing Marvin and Bibby to contracts longer than what they should've been ( or at least have a team option in one of those years )- signing JJ to a deal probably more than what was necessary. ( 6 yrs - 108 mill probably gets JJ )- trading Jordan Crawford and the #19 pick ( which could've been Kenneth Faried ) for Kirk HinrichNow we're in a situation in which they MUST get this Josh Smith situation right. If they mess it up, the results could be catastrophic. Edited June 3, 2012 by northcyde

[Joker]

Probably not, but it depends on the offer as well.

[Joker]

Diesel needs to be fair, he want someone who would be a crime to us like Gasol but wants to keep Joe at all cost.

[thecampster]

Diesel . . here is a GREAT ARTICLE written back when the Hawks traded Dikembe Mutumbo. It was a CNNSI.com article that talked about the Hawks bad decisions up until that point. It's a pretty good look at how this franchise literally messed up time after time, when a big decision had to be made

http://sportsillustr...itaintso_hawks/

And remember, this goes back to 2001. This doesn't even include

- trading the #3 pick ( which ended up being Pau Gasol ) for Shareef Abdur-Rahim

- drafting Marvin in 2005 instead of Chris Paul

- missing on the Shelden Williams pick

- re-signing Marvin and Bibby to contracts longer than what they should've been ( or at least have a team option in one of those years )

- signing JJ to a deal probably more than what was necessary. ( 6 yrs - 108 mill probably gets JJ )

- trading Jordan Crawford and the #19 pick ( which could've been Kenneth Faried ) for Kirk Hinrich

Now we're in a situation in which they MUST get this Josh Smith situation right. If they mess it up, the results could be catastrophic.

That one move there highlights the problem. The "win now" attitude pollutes all thinking toward winning. The idea of getting Hinrich was to win now. It was a good move, but making such a move requires making more moves down the road. Exercise good scouting with the 19th pick and you don't have to make a move later. The example is Josh Smith. Josh was a 17th pick, good judgement and good value at 17...much better than Chillz with the 6th in the same draft.

I'm not saying don't pull the trigger on a deal to win, but I am saying you can't be so hungry to win now that you sacrifice the future.

The same goes for mortgaging the present. I started this thread because of the "trade Josh for a pick" garbage. Honestly, I was suprised and relieved at those who almost unanimously understand the value in doing so with JJ would be.

If Hinrich brings back 19 + Jordan Crawford, JJ should bring back a decent player (better than Crawford) and 6-10. It is a combination of keeping Smith, enticing others, planning for the future. If you want to know what top tier free agents truly value, it is a team with a plan. You have a plan to compete...a solid plan...and free agents will look at you because marketing and money follow the plan.

[Diesel]

Diesel needs to be fair, he want someone who would be a crime to us like Gasol but wants to keep Joe at all cost.

I don't want to keep Joe at all cost. I have a plan for Joe and that's Amnesty in 2 yrs... when it makes sense.. or trade for something that makes sense.

What I keep hearing is... Let's trade Joe for Anything that lowers our cap.

To me, that is not a basketball plan. To me, that's just fear talking. Give me a basketball plan and I'm in. I said previously.. if we decide that we're starting all over.. that means clearing the books and rebuilding this team the right way, I'm in... but realize that if we screw Joe in the process, the likelihood of us ever getting a good FA is gone.

If we were talking Joe for Anderson V., Luke Walton, and #4 overall.. I could possibly be on it... as long as we still dealt Smoove. There's no way that I keep Smoove to watch him walk.

[Diesel]

That one move there highlights the problem. The "win now" attitude pollutes all thinking toward winning. The idea of getting Hinrich was to win now. It was a good move, but making such a move requires making more moves down the road. Exercise good scouting with the 19th pick and you don't have to make a move later. The example is Josh Smith. Josh was a 17th pick, good judgement and good value at 17...much better than Chillz with the 6th in the same draft.

I'm not saying don't pull the trigger on a deal to win, but I am saying you can't be so hungry to win now that you sacrifice the future.

The same goes for mortgaging the present. I started this thread because of the "trade Josh for a pick" garbage. Honestly, I was suprised and relieved at those who almost unanimously understand the value in doing so with JJ would be.

If Hinrich brings back 19 + Jordan Crawford, JJ should bring back a decent player (better than Crawford) and 6-10. It is a combination of keeping Smith, enticing others, planning for the future. If you want to know what top tier free agents truly value, it is a team with a plan. You have a plan to compete...a solid plan...and free agents will look at you because marketing and money follow the plan.

I don't see how we forget to add Bibby into this trade. We act like all we traded was Crawford. We traded Bibby.. our starting PG. The reason we traded Bibby is because he was no longer getting it done. Hinrich was picked up for his defense and ability to play the PG. Let's be honest, without Hinrich we wouldn't have beaten the Magic. When Hinrich went down in that last game, it was a blessing and a curse. We found Teague... however, we still could have used Hinrich. So yes, it was a win now move. However, all people can see was what we lost... a volume shooter that looks good on a team that's going nowhere and an old PG who was holding us back with his lack of defense. Nobody can see what we gained.

[thecampster]

I don't see how we forget to add Bibby into this trade. We act like all we traded was Crawford. We traded Bibby.. our starting PG. The reason we traded Bibby is because he was no longer getting it done. Hinrich was picked up for his defense and ability to play the PG. Let's be honest, without Hinrich we wouldn't have beaten the Magic. When Hinrich went down in that last game, it was a blessing and a curse. We found Teague... however, we still could have used Hinrich. So yes, it was a win now move. However, all people can see was what we lost... a volume shooter that looks good on a team that's going nowhere and an old PG who was holding us back with his lack of defense. Nobody can see what we gained.

We lost in essence 2 drafts picks for a "win now" mentality. For a series win over the Magic. It stings now but trading away pieces, bad drafting, offering excessive contracts, not re-up'ing pieces and making them test the market (ie..bad blood) consistently cost us. At the time I was all for acquiring Hinrich and still love Kirk....but the price was too steep. I'm man enough to admit I was wrong.