Okc vs. Atl

[Buzzard]

What does Josh Smith have to do with this...? Josh and Harden are completely different players who do very different things for their respective teams. If you think I'm overstating Harden's value to the Thunder, you clearly don't watch their games.

I clearly do and since you do not sit in my living room you clearly have no idea what I watch. Harden is a scoring guard who gives them a valuable punch, but he is not Durant or Westbrook. Bottom line, OKC would be fine without Harden so long as they kept their front line of Perk and Ibaka in tack to go along with Durant and Westbrook. Edited June 9, 2012 by Buzzard

[Joker]

OKC can't do it without Harden. They need him greatly. I think you can find a lot of Ibaka's on the NBA benches. PF's who do nothing but protect the rim, that's a role that Tyrus Thomas can do and several others.

[jy23]

First don't disrespect ibaka by comparing him to Thomas....he is in a different level in protecting the paint and his offense is constantly improving. The guy has very limited experience with organized basketball and will continue to improve as time goes on. And as far as harden goes you can't watch the thunder and honestly say that they would be the same team if you switch he and Marvin Williams....that is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. The guy just won 6th man of the year and led the league in 4th quarter free throw attempts....the LEAGUE!!!! He is the man that takes pressure off of westbrook and durant in crunch time, u can't really commit to a double team on either one of those because of his ability to stretch the floor, but he is also great at finishing at the rim, and he is aggressive.as hell.shown by the fact that he leads the LEAGUE in 4th quarter free throw attempts....on a team with durant and westbrook. He facilitates their offense better than weatbrook as well, Marvin could never do half of those things.the way harden can, u need to watch a lil more basketball before making statements like that.

[Joker]

First don't disrespect ibaka by comparing him to Thomas....he is in a different level in protecting the paint and his offense is constantly improving. The guy has very limited experience with organized basketball and will continue to improve as time goes on. And as far as harden goes you can't watch the thunder and honestly say that they would be the same team if you switch he and Marvin Williams....that is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. The guy just won 6th man of the year and led the league in 4th quarter free throw attempts....the LEAGUE!!!! He is the man that takes pressure off of westbrook and durant in crunch time, u can't really commit to a double team on either one of those because of his ability to stretch the floor, but he is also great at finishing at the rim, and he is aggressive.as hell.shown by the fact that he leads the LEAGUE in 4th quarter free throw attempts....on a team with durant and westbrook. He facilitates their offense better than weatbrook as well, Marvin could never do half of those things.the way harden can, u need to watch a lil more basketball before making statements like that.

Thomas has been in roles where they wanted him to do more than protect the basket. Most teams can't just have a defender protect the basket and that's it. Thomas can do what Ibaka does, quite a few other bigs can as well. What Ibaka is doing isn't that special. He has the personnel in place to let him do what he does without having much other responsibly.The Marvin-Harden thing is stupid as hell. Harden is one of the best SG's in the game. Marvin is your solid SF, which is nice to have but it's nothing special.

[WakaFlocka]

I clearly do and since you do not sit in my living room you clearly have no idea what I watch. Harden is a scoring guard who gives them a valuable punch, but he is not Durant or Westbrook. Bottom line, OKC would be fine without Harden so long as they kept their front line of Perk and Ibaka in tack to go along with Durant and Westbrook.

Ok... OKC would not be where they are without James Harden; who else would score the ball with him gone?

OKC can't do it without Harden. They need him greatly. I think you can find a lot of Ibaka's on the NBA benches. PF's who do nothing but protect the rim, that's a role that Tyrus Thomas can do and several others.

Exactly. Ibaka also has a decent midrange stroke, but without Westbrook or Harden creating off the dribble, he would never get to take those shots. I wouldn't go so far as to compare Ibaka to Tyrus Thomas, but I get your point, there are more defensive minded big-men available than shooting guards in mold of Harden.

First don't disrespect ibaka by comparing him to Thomas....he is in a different level in protecting the paint and his offense is constantly improving. The guy has very limited experience with organized basketball and will continue to improve as time goes on. And as far as harden goes you can't watch the thunder and honestly say that they would be the same team if you switch he and Marvin Williams....that is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. The guy just won 6th man of the year and led the league in 4th quarter free throw attempts....the LEAGUE!!!! He is the man that takes pressure off of westbrook and durant in crunch time, u can't really commit to a double team on either one of those because of his ability to stretch the floor, but he is also great at finishing at the rim, and he is aggressive.as hell.shown by the fact that he leads the LEAGUE in 4th quarter free throw attempts....on a team with durant and westbrook. He facilitates their offense better than weatbrook as well, Marvin could never do half of those things.the way harden can, u need to watch a lil more basketball before making statements like that.

My point exactly. If you watch OKC games, Harden controls the ball the majority of the time that he's on the floor, even when Westbrook is out also out there. He creates for himself and for others. Marvin can't do that; the two are NOT interchangeable. Period.

[AHF]

Most of us agree on Harden's importance to the Thunder. They wouldn't have it past the Spurs with Marvin. Harden is like adding JJ to that team - not like adding Marvin.

[benhillboy]

I'm sure if you asked the Thunder coaches to a man who makes that team go offensively, they would say Harden. He has the best combination of offensive and facilitation skills, Durant just has the deadliest jumper in recent memory and it takes him a long way because his handles are very suspect. Easily the worst I've ever seen from a scoring champ, let alone 3x., which makes him one of the wierder, unique superstars of All Time. Of course he's the leader if the team in spirit and the most deadly offensive force, but from what I see, if he dribbles more than 3 times he has problems, which is sometimes good for him as he is smart enough not to over-dribble and streamline his game because there are two other studs beside him. It also helps him with shot clock management, which he is stellar at. His below average handles are a gift and curse. Harden is considerably smarter than any player on our team not named Al, as evidenced by his shooting percentages in any sample size not straying too far from 50, 40, and 85 along with around 5 boards and assists in the low 30s in minutes. Comparing Marvin to Hard is just wrong. James would post more And-1's in a week than Marvin throughout the whole season. I am partial to Harden and maybe overstate his importance a little because I just have an affinity for players who drive relentlessly to the hole at every opportunity, and James does it a little more than that. He is the player who Scott Brooks wants the ball in his hands when they're down. I expect the Thunder to win in a close 5th game or comfortable game 6. Durant will most likely win MVP due to bulk scoring and averaging 7 or 8 boards if he doesn't shoot too poorly, around 44%. But Harden's name will definitely be considered due to the timeliness of his big plays and efficiency. The Heat have no answer for him nor the 4 bigs who are all very skilled at one thing or another.

[HawkItus]

First don't disrespect ibaka by comparing him to Thomas....he is in a different level in protecting the paint and his offense is constantly improving. The guy has very limited experience with organized basketball and will continue to improve as time goes on. And as far as harden goes you can't watch the thunder and honestly say that they would be the same team if you switch he and Marvin Williams....that is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. The guy just won 6th man of the year and led the league in 4th quarter free throw attempts....the LEAGUE!!!! He is the man that takes pressure off of westbrook and durant in crunch time, u can't really commit to a double team on either one of those because of his ability to stretch the floor, but he is also great at finishing at the rim, and he is aggressive.as hell.shown by the fact that he leads the LEAGUE in 4th quarter free throw attempts....on a team with durant and westbrook. He facilitates their offense better than weatbrook as well, Marvin could never do half of those things.the way harden can, u need to watch a lil more basketball before making statements like that.

First off it's my opinion.....if you disagree fine......but don't question what I watch or don't watch.Second nobody is reading what I said. Marvin is not going to give them what Harden gives them. But, they have others who can facilitate on the team. If Maynor wasn't hurt that candidate number one. Three 6th man award means nothing really. Without Jamal the Hawks had a better season even without Al. I'm sure back when he won the award people would have said that was impossible.Finally, remove Durant from the equation and the Thunder don't make the finals. Remove Westbrook and they don't make the finals. Remove Harden you can't say they have no chance. You can't.Harden is the J in a PB&J sandwich. Remove the Bread and Peanut Butter and all you have is a condiment. I swear this board over values the character actor. Edited June 11, 2012 by sultanofatl

[Joker]

Hawks had a weak schedule, we lost to most good teams far more than usual.

[MaceCase]

Hawks had a weak schedule, we lost to most good teams far more than usual.

Add in that they were on pace for 49.9999999 wins as opposed to the 53 that they won with Jamal as the 6th man of the year winner. I always wonder why people don't use the same critique they have of Harden on Ginobili being that he is also the "J" in the Duncan and Parker PB&J sandwich. Edited June 11, 2012 by MaceCase

[AHF]

Add in that they were on pace for 49.9999999 wins as opposed to the 53 that they won with Jamal as the 6th man of the year winner. I always wonder why people don't use the same critique they have of Harden on Ginobili being that he is also the "J" in the Duncan and Parker PB&J sandwich.

The Manu comparison is a much better one than Jamal Crawford, IMO.

[HawkItus]

James Harden is making my point for me :)

[Admin]

James Harden is making my point for me

35 points on 40% shooting in 90 minutes sounds a lot like Joe! Other than the scoring being a little lower than what I'd expect from Joe you can see a lot of comparisons with the 3 rebounds and 4 assists per game as well. Sounds like a max player to me!

[MaceCase]

Yup, after two subpar Finals games Harden's playoff averages have dropped to 16.6 points, 4.9 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 1.5 steals, .446 fg%, .431 3fg%, PER of 22.1 and WS/48 of .212 in 30 minutes of work but you just knew that someone would be lurking waiting for this game. Where they were when he put up 21, 4 and 2 just a game ago we don't know but we did know they'd show up after he put up 9, 6, and 6 to prove their "point".

[Admin]

Yup, after two subpar Finals games Harden's playoff averages have dropped to 16.6 points, 4.9 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 1.5 steals, .446 fg%, .431 3fg%, PER of 22.1 and WS/48 of .212 in 30 minutes of work but you just knew that someone would be lurking waiting for this game. Where they were when he put up 21, 4 and 2 just a game ago we don't know but we did know they'd show up after he put up 9, 6, and 6 to prove their "point".

He's also doing a lot of that against the bench for the other teams though. Let's see him put up those #'s as the primary option facing double teams and better overall defensive players. I like Harden a lot but there's been far too much smoke blown up people's rear ends about this guy and I look forward to seeing him become Joe pt 2 on some other young team who drains the life out of him with the team on his back.

[MaceCase]

He's also doing a lot of that against the bench for the other teams though. Let's see him put up those #'s as the primary option facing double teams and better overall defensive players. I like Harden a lot but there's been far too much smoke blown up people's rear ends about this guy and I look forward to seeing him become Joe pt 2 on some other young team who drains the life out of him with the team on his back.

Who is blowing smoke? What bench is played 30 minutes a night in the playoffs to even contemplate trying to use that tired old excuse? He did just drop 21 on 11 shots one game ago with Durant and Westbrook on the bench because of foul trouble against both Lebron and Wade yet people want to still brush away his accomplishments? Okay, so you have an issue with him being compared to Joe currently, explain to me why exactly Joe wasn't as successful or efficient when he was playing with Nash, Amar'e, Marion, Barbosa and QRich then? That was good enough to get him a max and cost Rajon Rondo and Robin Lopez but if you want to continue down with that comparison then make the logical jump that if Harden is more successful in the same "role" as Joe had in Phoenix then he would therefore be more successful in the same role that Joe has in Atlanta, right? That's the comparison that you want to make then follow it down its logical steps. I personally liken him to Ginobili, now please, make the argument for me that Ginobili is the 3rd wheel for San Antonio and that replacing him with Marvin would net the same results because they have Duncan and then Parker being the bread and peanut butter.

[Admin]

Who is blowing smoke? What bench is played 30 minutes a night in the playoffs to even contemplate trying to use that tired old excuse? He did just drop 21 on 11 shots one game ago with Durant and Westbrook on the bench because of foul trouble against both Lebron and Wade yet people want to still brush away his accomplishments? Okay, so you have an issue with him being compared to Joe currently, explain to me why exactly Joe wasn't as successful or efficient when he was playing with Nash, Amar'e, Marion, Barbosa and QRich then? That was good enough to get him a max and cost Rajon Rondo and Robin Lopez but if you want to continue down with that comparison then make the logical jump that if Harden is more successful in the same "role" as Joe had in Phoenix then he would therefore be more successful in the same role that Joe has in Atlanta, right? That's the comparison that you want to make then follow it down its logical steps.

I personally liken him to Ginobili, now please, make the argument for me that Ginobili is the 3rd wheel for San Antonio and that replacing him with Marvin would net the same results because they have Duncan and then Parker being the bread and peanut butter.

In general people like to blow smoke about how incredible Harden is... and heck who knows he might be, but then again we won't know until he's the man on a bad team, which is where he'll probably end up going if he leaves for a max contract. And I don't have a problem with him being compared to Joe, I was just agreeing with the statement above that even as the 6th man his stats for the playoffs look a lot like what we'd see from Joe and that's with him being the primary focus of the starting defense every single game. Just because Harden occasionally plays against the starting defense does not make that equal. And what Joe was on Phoenix is not the same as what Harden is for OKC. Harden is a bench spark plug while Joe was a starter, at least his final 2 years in Phoenix anyway. Sure I can see some comparisons, but I don't see anything that proves that Harden will be as good or better than Joe on a crap team and I think you'll see Harden having a disappointing career based on his next contract as I don't think he'll live up to it.

And sorry I'd never make the comparison that Marvin and Gino are even remotely close.

[Joker]

Harden is a better scorer but Joe is a better player.

[HawkItus]

Who is blowing smoke? What bench is played 30 minutes a night in the playoffs to even contemplate trying to use that tired old excuse? He did just drop 21 on 11 shots one game ago with Durant and Westbrook on the bench because of foul trouble against both Lebron and Wade yet people want to still brush away his accomplishments? Okay, so you have an issue with him being compared to Joe currently, explain to me why exactly Joe wasn't as successful or efficient when he was playing with Nash, Amar'e, Marion, Barbosa and QRich then? That was good enough to get him a max and cost Rajon Rondo and Robin Lopez but if you want to continue down with that comparison then make the logical jump that if Harden is more successful in the same "role" as Joe had in Phoenix then he would therefore be more successful in the same role that Joe has in Atlanta, right? That's the comparison that you want to make then follow it down its logical steps.I personally liken him to Ginobili, now please, make the argument for me that Ginobili is the 3rd wheel for San Antonio and that replacing him with Marvin would net the same results because they have Duncan and then Parker being the bread and peanut butter.

Pre-injury Marvin 07-08 ATL 80 80 34.6 0.462 0.100 0.822 1.5 4.2 5.7 1.7 1.0 0.4 1.59 2.81 14.8 08-09 ATL 61 59 34.3 0.458 0.355 0.806 1.8 4.5 6.3 1.3 0.9 0.6 1.15 2.08 13.9 Harden 09-10 OKC 76 0 22.9 0.403 0.375 0.808 0.6 2.6 3.2 1.8 1.0 0.3 1.39 2.63 9.9 10-11 OKC 82 5 26.7 0.436 0.349 0.843 0.5 2.6 3.1 2.1 1.1 0.3 1.29 2.52 12.2 11-12 OKC 62 2 31.4 0.491 0.390 0.846 0.5 3.6 4.1 3.7 1.0 0.2 2.21 2.42 16.8 Edited June 18, 2012 by sultanofatl

[MaceCase]

In general people like to blow smoke about how incredible Harden is... and heck who knows he might be, but then again we won't know until he's the man on a bad team, which is where he'll probably end up going if he leaves for a max contract. And I don't have a problem with him being compared to Joe, I was just agreeing with the statement above that even as the 6th man his stats for the playoffs look a lot like what we'd see from Joe and that's with him being the primary focus of the starting defense every single game. Just because Harden occasionally plays against the starting defense does not make that equal. And what Joe was on Phoenix is not the same as what Harden is for OKC. Harden is a bench spark plug while Joe was a starter, at least his final 2 years in Phoenix anyway. Sure I can see some comparisons, but I don't see anything that proves that Harden will be as good or better than Joe on a crap team and I think you'll see Harden having a disappointing career based on his next contract as I don't think he'll live up to it.

And sorry I'd never make the comparison that Marvin and Gino are even remotely close.

I guess we won't know how good Ginobili is either till he's the lead dog on a crap team therefore he hasn't accomplished anything worth celebratin in the league up until now. Too bad too because he's close to retirement....

See how asinine that argument is?

And oh, because he hasn't started for almost half of his career he's therefore not comparable either to a stud like Joe who most definitely spends all of his 40 minutes on the court going up against starters while guys like Manu and Harden go up against the bench scrubs.