Okc vs. Atl

[HawkItus]

I guess we won't know how good Ginobili is either till he's the lead dog on a crap team therefore he hasn't accomplished anything worth celebratin in the league up until now. Too bad too because he's close to retirement....See how asinine that argument is?And oh, because he hasn't started for almost half of his career he's therefore not comparable either to a stud like Joe who most definitely spends all of his 40 minutes on the court going up against starters while guys like Manu and Harden go up against the bench scrubs.

we get it your hard for Harden. Be a fan man....but don't expect everybody else to be.

[MaceCase]

Pre-injury Marvin 07-08 ATL 80 80 34.6 0.462 0.100 0.822 1.5 4.2 5.7 1.7 1.0 0.4 1.59 2.81 14.8 08-09 ATL 61 59 34.3 0.458 0.355 0.806 1.8 4.5 6.3 1.3 0.9 0.6 1.15 2.08 13.9 Harden 09-10 OKC 76 0 22.9 0.403 0.375 0.808 0.6 2.6 3.2 1.8 1.0 0.3 1.39 2.63 9.9 10-11 OKC 82 5 26.7 0.436 0.349 0.843 0.5 2.6 3.1 2.1 1.1 0.3 1.29 2.52 12.2 11-12 OKC 62 2 31.4 0.491 0.390 0.846 0.5 3.6 4.1 3.7 1.0 0.2 2.21 2.42 16.8

Wow, what a weaaaaaaaaaak argument. Marvin's 3rd year vs. Harden's rookie year...... Have trouble fitting your agenda much? Adjust for minutes, please.07-08 Marvin's 3rd year per3615.4ppg, 6 rebounds, 1.8 assissts, 1.1 steals, .4 blocks, 46% fg%, 10% 3point%, 14.5 PER, .099 WS/4809-10 Harden's rookie year per3615.6ppg, 5.1 rebounds, 2.8 assissts, 1.7 steals, .4 blocks, 40% fg%, 38% 3point%, 14.0 PER, .124 WS/48.Congratulations, you've proven that if they replaced Harden in his rookie year with "pre-injury" Marvin that they'd be in the Finals today.

we get it your hard for Harden. Be a fan man....but don't expect everybody else to be.

We get it, you're clueless and are reaching to save face. Edited June 18, 2012 by MaceCase

[HawkItus]

Wow, what a weaaaaaaaaaak argument. Marvin's 3rd year vs. Harden's rookie year...... Have trouble fitting your agenda much? Adjust for minutes, please.07-08 Marvin's 3rd year per3615.4ppg, 6 rebounds, 1.8 assissts, 1.1 steals, .4 blocks, 46% fg%, 10% 3point%, 14.5 PER, .099 WS/4809-10 Harden's rookie year per3615.6ppg, 5.1 rebounds, 2.8 assissts, 1.7 steals, .4 blocks, 40% fg%, 38% 3point%, 14.0 PER, .124 WS/48.Congratulations, you've proven that if they replaced Harden in his rookie year with "pre-injury" Marvin that they'd be in the Finals today.We get it, you're clueless and are reaching to save face.

Wow, what a weaaaaaaaaaak argument. Marvin's 3rd year vs. Harden's rookie year...... Have trouble fitting your agenda much? Adjust for minutes, please.07-08 Marvin's 3rd year per3615.4ppg, 6 rebounds, 1.8 assissts, 1.1 steals, .4 blocks, 46% fg%, 10% 3point%, 14.5 PER, .099 WS/4809-10 Harden's rookie year per3615.6ppg, 5.1 rebounds, 2.8 assissts, 1.7 steals, .4 blocks, 40% fg%, 38% 3point%, 14.0 PER, .124 WS/48.Congratulations, you've proven that if they replaced Harden in his rookie year with "pre-injury" Marvin that they'd be in the Finals today.We get it, you're clueless and are reaching to save face.

3 years of Harden.......Marvin rookie year included 05-06 ATL 79 7 24.7 0.443 0.245 0.747 1.5 3.3 4.8 0.8 0.6 0.3 1.05 2.87 8.5 06-07 ATL 64 63 34.0 0.433 0.244 0.815 1.3 4.0 5.3 1.9 0.8 0.5 1.98 2.98 13.1 07-08 ATL 80 80 34.6 0.462 0.100 0.822 1.5 4.2 5.7 1.7 1.0 0.4 1.59 2.81 14.8 08-09 ATL 61 59 34.3 0.458 0.355 0.806 1.8 4.5 6.3 1.3 0.9 0.6 1.15 2.08 13.9 No ones saying Marvin is better than your guy. The point is that role could be filled by any number of guys with Durant Westbrook there. In a few years he might grow into the player Manu is now. But, as for today he is not the banner holder on that team.

[Admin]

I guess we won't know how good Ginobili is either till he's the lead dog on a crap team therefore he hasn't accomplished anything worth celebratin in the league up until now. Too bad too because he's close to retirement....See how asinine that argument is?And oh, because he hasn't started for almost half of his career he's therefore not comparable either to a stud like Joe who most definitely spends all of his 40 minutes on the court going up against starters while guys like Manu and Harden go up against the bench scrubs.

Ginobili has been a starter for 3 seasons in San Antonio and has started 346 total games there in the regular season. He also has 136 playoff games as a Spur under his belt. Add to that he had 7 years of Euro professional experience and multiple MVP trophies before ever coming into the NBA and that makes this argument of yours seem pretty weak.

[MaceCase]

3 years of Harden.......Marvin rookie year included 05-06 ATL 79 7 24.7 0.443 0.245 0.747 1.5 3.3 4.8 0.8 0.6 0.3 1.05 2.87 8.5 06-07 ATL 64 63 34.0 0.433 0.244 0.815 1.3 4.0 5.3 1.9 0.8 0.5 1.98 2.98 13.1 07-08 ATL 80 80 34.6 0.462 0.100 0.822 1.5 4.2 5.7 1.7 1.0 0.4 1.59 2.81 14.8 08-09 ATL 61 59 34.3 0.458 0.355 0.806 1.8 4.5 6.3 1.3 0.9 0.6 1.15 2.08 13.9 No ones saying Marvin is better than your guy. The point is that role could be filled by any number of guys with Durant Westbrook there. In a few years he might grow into the player Manu is now. But, as for today he is not the banner holder on that team.

Forgive me, I can't read that wall of numbers you have posted too well but even so Marvin's best year by raw stats is only equivalent to Harden's rookie year once you adjust for minutes......This is proving what again? Check the per-minute numbers, check the advanced stats, I beg of you. What similarities are you drawing then between their impacts? By your stance I can put Monta Ellis on the some cliff as Durant and therefore blow away the whole argument that Durant on any team changes their playoff outlook.

Ginobili has been a starter for 3 seasons in San Antonio and has started 346 total games there in the regular season. He also has 136 playoff games as a Spur under his belt. Add to that he had 7 years of Euro professional experience and multiple MVP trophies before ever coming into the NBA and that makes this argument of yours seem pretty weak.

3 seasons out of 10 as a starter, also came off the bench for 321 games and was primarily a bench player on two of his three championship teams (03 & 07) the rest is just you trying to obfuscate the topic. I expect that from a certain other but not you, Dol. Fact is his dynamic on the Spurs doesn't change simply because such a silly reason as starting or not and he most definitely doesn't play a role behind Duncan and Parker because of it. Him and Harden play starters minutes as part of a staggered big 3 regardless but no matter, use everything you've said about Harden and just replace his name with Ginobili, that's been my challenge to you and others. I don't want to hear any of the other nonsense about what he did in Europe, or juco, or AAU, just explain exactly how as a bench player he's facing backups and doesn't ever see doubles because he's living in Duncan and Parker's shade. I'll add, since you want to start throwing career accomplishments as though no one noticed Ginobili was great until this thread, that Harden didn't arrive to a playoff or former championship core either. His arrival has coincided with OKC making the playoffs each of his 3 years and his improvement seems to coincide with them making it further in the playoffs but alas, silly me. A teams 3rd leading scorer and second leading assistman is clearly just some replaceable bench guy whose impact is inconsequential in light of his far superior players......Just like Ginobili.

[Joker]

I always felt Manu had average BBIQ and sometimes he took the Squrs out of the game as a starter. Not to Josh's degree but to some degree nonetheless. Harden is a #1 option but so is Russell and Durant. As a starter, he can get in the way of the flow of the game. Three #1 options who start just don't work long term. I don't see them as the same.

[Admin]

Forgive me, I can't read that wall of numbers you have posted too well but even so Marvin's best year by raw stats is only equivalent to Harden's rookie year once you adjust for minutes......This is proving what again? Check the per-minute numbers, check the advanced stats, I beg of you. What similarities are you drawing then between their impacts? By your stance I can put Monta Ellis on the some cliff as Durant and therefore blow away the whole argument that Durant on any team changes their playoff outlook.3 seasons out of 10 as a starter, also came off the bench for 321 games and was primarily a bench player on two of his three championship teams (03 & 07) the rest is just you trying to obfuscate the topic. I expect that from a certain other but not you, Dol. Fact is his dynamic on the Spurs doesn't change simply because such a silly reason as starting or not and he most definitely doesn't play a role behind Duncan and Parker because of it. Him and Harden play starters minutes as part of a staggered big 3 regardless but no matter, use everything you've said about Harden and just replace his name with Ginobili, that's been my challenge to you and others. I don't want to hear any of the other nonsense about what he did in Europe, or juco, or AAU, just explain exactly how as a bench player he's facing backups and doesn't ever see doubles because he's living in Duncan and Parker's shade. I'll add, since you want to start throwing career accomplishments as though no one noticed Ginobili was great until this thread, that Harden didn't arrive to a playoff or former championship core either. His arrival has coincided with OKC making the playoffs each of his 3 years and his improvement seems to coincide with them making it further in the playoffs but alas, silly me. A teams 3rd leading scorer and second leading assistman is clearly just some replaceable bench guy whose impact is inconsequential in light of his far superior players......Just like Ginobili.

My point here is that Ginobili was a GREAT player in the Euro league with multiple MVP awards and he had 7 years of pro experience before getting to the NBA. Harden was a very good college player with 2 years of college experience. So I don't think that comparing Ginobili as a 6th man on a multiple championship Spurs team is the same thing as Harden as a 6th man on a team playing in their 1st finals. Ginobili proved himself long before getting on the Spurs and I believe he's even been an MVP candidate in the NBA as well as 6th man of the year. Harden may very well become a stud starter for someone someday, but he's no lock for it and hasn't proved himself the way that Ginobili has.BTW in NO WAY am I saying that Harden is easily replaceable, nor do I see Marvin as being remotely equal to him. And while I don't find the comparison to Ginobili as nearly as ridiculous, I don't see it as being anywhere near equal either.

[MaceCase]

My point here is that Ginobili was a GREAT player in the Euro league with multiple MVP awards and he had 7 years of pro experience before getting to the NBA. Harden was a very good college player with 2 years of college experience. So I don't think that comparing Ginobili as a 6th man on a multiple championship Spurs team is the same thing as Harden as a 6th man on a team playing in their 1st finals. Ginobili proved himself long before getting on the Spurs and I believe he's even been an MVP candidate in the NBA as well as 6th man of the year. Harden may very well become a stud starter for someone someday, but he's no lock for it and hasn't proved himself the way that Ginobili has.

BTW in NO WAY am I saying that Harden is easily replaceable, nor do I see Marvin as being remotely equal to him. And while I don't find the comparison to Ginobili as nearly as ridiculous, I don't see it as being anywhere near equal either.

What does what he did in Europe have to do with what he did in the NBA? This is why I say you are obfuscating the topic because teams sure didn't say "look out, here comes the Eurocup MVP!" when he first got here. There's a dozen Euros in the league than can make the same claim, only about 3 of them are any good and regardless despite all of that he still came off the bench in his rookie and sophomore years in the NBA......so really, if you want to bring all of that into the conversation then why exactly was he coming off the bench his first two seasons in the league considering the previous accomplishments? And how does that change that his two teammates have far more NBA accomplishments than he does (All Star, All NBA, Finals MVP)? See, use the same detractions used for Harden and start to tear apart Ginobili's resume. I'm not making the claim that they are the exact same player but that they fulfill the exact same roles on their very successful contending teams. Neither are some bit player playing behind or off the openings their "better" teammates create for them, this a Finals between two legitimate Big 3s and it's just ignorant to say otherwise because they all work to make each other and their teams better.

[Admin]

What does what he did in Europe have to do with what he did in the NBA? This is why I say you are obfuscating the topic because teams sure didn't say "look out, here comes the Eurocup MVP!" when he first got here. There's a dozen Euros in the league than can make the same claim, only about 3 of them are any good and regardless despite all of that he still came off the bench in his rookie and sophomore years in the NBA......so really, if you want to bring all of that into the conversation then why exactly was he coming off the bench his first two seasons in the league considering the previous accomplishments? And how does that change that his two teammates have far more NBA accomplishments than he does (All Star, All NBA, Finals MVP)? See, use the same detractions used for Harden and start to tear apart Ginobili's resume. I'm not making the claim that they are the exact same player but that they fulfill the exact same roles on their very successful contending teams. Neither are some bit player playing behind or off the openings their "better" teammates create for them, this a Finals between two legitimate Big 3s and it's just ignorant to say otherwise because they all work to make each other and their teams better.

You can say that I'm obfuscating the point all you'd like but that doesn't make it true. The point that he played in Europe means that he had 7 years of high level professional basketball experience under his belt and was already proven before he got into the NBA. Harden has never had to prove himself as the man. He may be able to do so, but he hasn't done it yet. You're acting like comparing Manu after 7 years of pro experience is the same as Harden who had no pro experience. And in the NBA Manu has 3 full seasons as a starter for the Spurs while Harden has started 7 games in his entire NBA career.

[HawkItus]

Bosh is way more accomplished than Harden. The Miami big 3 is a legit big 3. OKC is a big 2 + 2 or 3. Even OKC management might choose Ilbaka over Harden in this coming off season.

[MaceCase]

You can say that I'm obfuscating the point all you'd like but that doesn't make it true. The point that he played in Europe means that he had 7 years of high level professional basketball experience under his belt and was already proven before he got into the NBA. Harden has never had to prove himself as the man. He may be able to do so, but he hasn't done it yet. You're acting like comparing Manu after 7 years of pro experience is the same as Harden who had no pro experience. And in the NBA Manu has 3 full seasons as a starter for the Spurs while Harden has started 7 games in his entire NBA career.

Add disingenuous to your list of tactics. A 7 year "pro" was still coming off the bench in his rookie and sophomore seasons in the only pro league that matters.......unless you want to tell me that trading David Andersen was the greatest tragedy to the Hawks too considering his "pro" credentials? Let me be slightly disingenuous too, Harden is playing in his first Finals at a younger age and won 6th Man of the Year in only his 3rd season as opposed to his 6th like Ginobili but tell me more about how excited you were when you heard Manu and Kinder Bologna captured the Italian Cup and that he was coming over to the States!

[Admin]

Add disingenuous to your list of tactics. A 7 year "pro" was still coming off the bench in his rookie and sophomore seasons in the only pro league that matters.......unless you want to tell me that trading David Andersen was the greatest tragedy to the Hawks too considering his "pro" credentials? Let me be slightly disingenuous too, Harden is playing in his first Finals at a younger age and won 6th Man of the Year in only his 3rd season as opposed to his 6th like Ginobili but tell me more about how excited you were when you heard Manu and Kinder Bologna captured the Italian Cup and that he was coming over to the States!

You sure seem to be enjoying resulting to throwing names and insults out there. I guess I'll let you drive on with that and enjoy debating this with yourself as I feel that I've made my point.

[HawkItus]

Aye Mace.....another great game for your boy. All-NBA for sure.

[MaceCase]

oooooo, aren't we petty and becoming the very definition of a troll by only popping up after the worst two games in the playoffs and creating strawmen that I claimed him as All-NBA. Perhaps you'd take the time to notice that with him playing poorly the Thunder are coincidentally losing but alas, that would require logic.

[coachx]

Bosh is way more accomplished than Harden. The Miami big 3 is a legit big 3. OKC is a big 2 + 2 or 3. Even OKC management might choose Ilbaka over Harden in this coming off season.

Man, Harden had a rough game last night. He missed a ton of close layups he normally makes. None the less, he is coming off a incredible year and was very efficient for a SG and with it being on a championship level team it shows its no fluke.I do agree............without a doubt Bosh is more accomplished then a 22 year old Harden who should be a senior in college right now.OKC probably will chose Ibaka over Harden long term since they already have 2 of the top 5 scorers in the NBA and Ibaka is the best shot blocker in the NBA.I see Harden making a Joe Johnson move where he goes to a team for the max as their #1 option when he is a free agent after next season in 2013. Of course the max for a player coming off their rookie contract is considerabally less then the max that guys like JJ, Stoudemire, James, Wade, Kobe, etc make. Edited June 20, 2012 by coachx

[HawkItus]

oooooo, aren't we petty and becoming the very definition of a troll by only popping up after the worst two games in the playoffs and creating strawmen that I claimed him as All-NBA. Perhaps you'd take the time to notice that with him playing poorly the Thunder are coincidentally losing but alas, that would require logic.

I'm just messing with you man. Where I'm from that's what we do. If someone takes a strong stance people bust his balls if things go wrong. If Harden was going 10-15 and having triple doubles I'd expect the same. Nothing personal just having fun.Coach......beyond the experience Bosh has faced being the man before. Until Harden gets that chance I hate how he gets placed above the Iggy, JJ, Martin etc. type class. We don't know what he will truly be until he faces that challenge.

[Guest]

Don't forget that with Manu, Pop specifically has asked him to come off the bench because it changes the dynamic of his 2nd unit offensively, not because he couldn't start.

[Diesel]

Harden is a good SG who has the benefit of playing with two upper echelon players. That means that he has more freedom than if he were the lead dog. It's Hard being the lead dog. Some guys crumble trying to be the lead dog. That's why it's laughable when people try to dismiss what JJ or Iggy does on the Court. Those guys are lead dogs for their teams. They are what defenses focus on. Harden is not that yet and who knows how he will react under that kind of scrutiny. BUT... his showing in this series vs. an elite defender is very off putting.

[benhillboy]

Its no secret that I love Harden, but will give him no excuses for not having great results. He's approaching the game the same way he always does, with a perfect mix of control and recklessness, driving at every opportunity, shooting open shots, distributing crisply, and he had 10 boards last night. He's simply missing shots he normally makes, and he should definitely bear blame for not hitting them, which I think he wouldn't shy away from. Most alarming though is his free throw misses. They usually get his stroke going, but shot after shot was rimmed out. When the Heat's defense is swarming, guys get shut down. It happens. I think the common knowledge in the NBA is to live with Westbrook going off because he just isn't cerebral enough to affect the game in too many other ways. The series isn't over and fully expect Harden to get the results at least for game 5. The guy is having to guard LeBron way more times than he should be asked to, which is why I don't think he'll get a max like Joe. It's a big difference between 6"5, low 200s and 6"7, 235+. I hate Joe of course, but always give him his due of stabilizing our perimeter defense for years on one of the better defensive teams even with backcourt mates who are suspect to say the least. Whatever the outcome, I love Harden's style and marvel at LeBron, so hopefully there are three games to come and may the best squad win.