Will we hang his jersey

[coachx]

I'm sorry but it is hard to take this post seriously when you actually said the words "iverson was better".

Just a basic difference of opinion........and yes I'm serious. Even though I'm not a fan of AI's game I value this thing called playoff success over style preference........AI had some playoff success as a #1 option and JJ had very little playoff success as a #1 option. Edited July 3, 2012 by coachx

[Sothron]

I know you fall in love with Hawks players but no need to diss Reggie like that.

Reggie Miller was a SG who was extremely efficient shooting the ball with 47.1% career FG % and 39.5% 3pt %.

He is one of the 3 or 4 greatest shooter of all time. Heck, Reggie's career true shooting percentage is an outstanding 61.4 % !

Reggie Miller was no chucker.

Now AI was a chucker............42% career FG % and 31% career 3pt %.

I'll take a chucker with more playoff success over an all around player with less playoff success. Just my opinion though.

I didn't Reggie was a chucker, I said he was a defensive sieve. I should have worded it better to say a chucker (Iverson) or a defensive sieve (Miller and Iverson) because that was what I was saying. Sorry for the confusion. I don't hate Reggie Miler btw, he was one of the game's best shooters but he was a one trick pony on the court. He didn't bring anything else other than shooting.

[Sothron]

Just a basic difference of opinion........and yes I'm serious. Even though I'm not a fan of AI's game I value this thing called playoff success over style preference........AI had some playoff success as a #1 option and JJ had very little playoff success as a #1 option.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Iverson only make it to the Finals once and that was the year we traded them Deke? Their entire offense was literally nothing but four guys standing around waiting for an offensive rebound while Iverson chucked it. I have to be fair and point out what is probably obvious: I hate, nay, loathe and despise Allen Iverson. He ruined an entire generation of players after him and ruined the NBA until the current rule changes because of his incredibly selfish chucking routine.

[AHF]

Reggie >> JJ offensively and by a big enough margin to make him clearly the higher impact player all-around.Now I am an AI hater, but I still think his impact was at least the equal of JJ. More significantly for All-Star purposes, he was so popular that he was a guaranteed starter just from fan votes which means that if JJ was playing in that time period he would have to be better than all other SGs in the East to make the roster which is unlikely except in today's historically terrible time for SGs. Bottomline, is that I don't see JJ as having a prayer at the HOF and think he was a borderline All-Star who gets in without much competition but doesn't see the All-Star game if he is up against say Kobe, Ginobili, and Roy ala 5 years ago. He gets in today in the East because there are no alternatives right now (other than Wade who is a no-brainer to start over JJ) and JJ is a solid, low-ego guy who can be added by a coach without having to worry about him wanting shots or trying to impact the All-Star game by taking shots from Wade, Lebron, etc. He will come in and shoot 2-5 while blending with the squad on the floor so that makes him attractive. His single 3rd team All-NBA appearance tells the tale there.

[APE]

I'm perplexed at "only legends get their number retired by the Hawks." How many legends have played for the Hawks, in their prime who don't have their number retired?

[niremetal]

How many guys made 5 or more All Star teams for the Hawks? Six players:Bob Pettit (11)Dominique Wilkins (9)Lou Hudson (6)Joe Johnson (6)Cliff Hagan (5)Lenny Wilkens (5)If you're excluding players who led miserable teams, the Hudson era Hawks didn't get past the second round and got worse (rather than better) as his time with the team went on.It's borderline given how strict the Hawks are with their banner standards, but I say yes.And whoever said Pistol Pete has got to be kidding. Great college player who didn't do jack shit with the Hawks.

Edited July 3, 2012 by niremetal

[AHF]

I'm perplexed at "only legends get their number retired by the Hawks." How many legends have played for the Hawks, in their prime who don't have their number retired?

Piston Pete is the biggest name. Dikembe Mutombo is the biggest in recent years. The Hawks have had several HOFers who played for the team in their prime and aren't on the rafters, most notably: Cliff Hagan & Lenny Wilkens (inducted as a player) Edited July 3, 2012 by AHF

[AHF]

And whoever said Pistol Pete has got to be kidding. Great college player who didn't do jack shit with the Hawks.

I do agree with this. I actually think he is the most overrated player in NBA history - period. His college play was more notable for the volume of shots than any success on the court.

[coachx]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Iverson only make it to the Finals once and that was the year we traded them Deke? Their entire offense was literally nothing but four guys standing around waiting for an offensive rebound while Iverson chucked it.

That is right........mean while Joe Johnson gives you career averages of only 16.9 ppg on 41FG% while never getting out of the 2nd round while being a #1 option. Iverson gives you 29.7 ppg on 40 FG% for his career playoff averages. Since 1% is splitting hairs.............I'll take the more explosive player over 1%. I can't see Joe Johnson leading that same 76ers team to the Finals but I can see AI leading Atlanta out of the 2nd round at least once. Edited July 3, 2012 by coachx

[atlbraves93]

JJ deserves to have a banner. He was the face of the team when we transitioned from a cellar-dweller to a consistent playoff team. The stats and ASG appearances are nice, but I will always remember Joe for hitting huge shots like these.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxmGqHS647Mhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkkG5RStQh8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzx3052GRcshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYf1wnbdTrM

[coachx]

I do agree with this. I actually think he is the most overrated player in NBA history - period. His college play was more notable for the volume of shots than any success on the court.

Flash over substance in the NBA. He destroyed the Hawks locker room. Based on everythng I have read Lou Hudson despised having to play with a guy who would rather tricky dribble and "entertain" then play efficiently to win. Red Auerbach made a whole collection of instructional videos in the 70's with Pistol Pete. http://www.youtube.c...0.0.8cXGSeEirrc My dad made me watch everyone. They were very good growing up. Any way..........Red said in an interview, that I'm trying to find, how he wished he had a chance to coach Pistol Pete and mold him into a more efficient player. I think the Celtics eventually got Maravich but his knees were shot out by then. Edited July 3, 2012 by coachx

[Sothron]

That is right........mean while Joe Johnson gives you career averages of only 16.9 ppg on 41FG% while never getting out of the 2nd round while being a #1 option. Iverson gives you 29.7 ppg on 40 FG% for his career playoff averages. Since 1% is splitting hairs.............I'll take the more explosive player over 1%. I can't see Joe Johnson leading that same 76ers team to the Finals but I can see AI leading Atlanta out of the 2nd round at least once.

Iverson: FGA 1882 on .401 shooting Johnson: FGA 958 on .413 shooting Playoff numbers btw. Iverson shot the ball almost twice as much with much less efficiency. I'll take Joe any day over that hot mess.

[tonegully]

Damn, couldn't have said it better. He was the leader of some lottery teams, said he "couldn't care less" about the fans booing him, and was unceremoniously shipped out for expiring contracts. I never embraced him as a Hawk, I always thought of him like a rogue who would've played anywhere for that insane contract. The fanbase couldn't care less about him for the most part except for die-hard Hawks fans on this board, so no. No way his jersey goes up. Only HOFs up in Phillips, bro.

Well we wont be hanging nothing in phillps for a long time. You guys kill me sometimes. Joe came here and was never overpaid. He was offered the money and took it like everyone else here on this board. Now that he is traded fans are yelling we wont make the playoffs then will turn right around and say he wasnt worth nothing. Please. He did what he could do with what the cheap ASG gave him. Terrible coaches and terrible draft picks and cheap over the hill Free Agents. I think his jersey should be retired. It time to start conducting this team as a organization with some class. No wonder players dont want to come here.

[AHF]

Iverson: FGA 1882 on .401 shooting Johnson: FGA 958 on .413 shooting Playoff numbers btw. Iverson shot the ball almost twice as much with much less efficiency. I'll take Joe any day over that hot mess.

Not me and I hate Iverson's game. Playoff scoring efficiency is subpar for both and one is not much more or much less efficienct as a scorer: Iverson career playoff average .489 ts%, median .490 ts% Johnson career playoff average .495 ts%, median .475 ts% In terms of overall numbers: Iverson career average playoff WS/48 .109, median playoff WS/48 .131 Johnson career average playoff WS/48 .037, median playoff WS/48 .042 Iverson career average playoff PER 21.2, median playoff PER 22.55 Johnson career average playoff PER 13.8, median playoff PER 14.5 The numbers are not a big edge for JJ on efficiency.

[benhillboy]

I think most NBA purists have a negative opinion of Iverson. The guy is still Top 3(?) in PPG career average, and mainly because he excelled at the one skill that Joe couldn't, and at about half his size, which was getting to that cup and line. Getting to the Finals with that roster is legendary IMO, maybe more of a testament to Larry Brown that AI though. I didn't know Deke had 3 DPOYs here. I would think that would make him a cinch for the HOF and the rafters here. When I think of a retired jersey, I think that franchise drafting said player goes a long way. We didn't see Joe grow and progress. Hell, he regressed. You also have to do something notable and distinctive that cannot be left out of the NBA History Book. Nique was an All-Time Top 10 scorer forever until Bean came through knocking cats off. Josh could possibly be the most prolific shot blocker in his size range ever. Al could be beloved with at least a few Conference Finals appearances and a very comprehensive career stat line for his position. Now that Joe's career is done here, there was never that historic moment. I'm willing to bet there are no modern perimeter players in the HOF who haven't dropped 50 at least once. Being known as a scorer, he simply wasn't good enough. Off the top of my head, all of the current players destined for the HOF were drafted by the teams (or traded on draft day in Bean's case) they made their names on with an exception of Nash and Kidd who piled up assists in 3 different jerseys. Theres something about seeing a young guy take his lumps and bust his ass to get to or at least near the mountaintop for a fanbase. KG and LeBron are Great enough to infuriate their former owners, yet still will cause an uproar in the media if their jerseys aren't retired by their drafters because they're clearly the best their franchises had ever seen. Joe draws comparisons to Smitty. That won't cut it. The fact that arguably the most storied franchise in NBA history traded him halfway through his rookie season tells you all you need to know.

Edited July 3, 2012 by benhillboy

[MaceCase]

You also have to do something notable and distinctive that cannot be left out of the NBA History Book.

Sorry to cut you off but this right here cinched it for me. He has the All Star selections but as already stated those are quite dubious because they came in a notoriously weak guard crop in the East. A guard crop that got even weaker when mainstays such as AI (ha!) Billups, Kidd and McGrady all went out West right around the same time Joe coincidentally started up his streak of appearances. A guard crop that hasn't been replenished till this day except for Rondo and Rose as perennial newcomers There's only one selection that wasn't affected by his conference which was the All NBA 3rd team but beyond that there's not much he did league wide that mattered in terms of achievement other than leading in minutes played I guess. That's league wide. Now let's discuss his time as a Hawk. http://www.basketbal...ers_career.html Look at the list of franchise leaders in every conceivable category. Joe is consistently not in the top 5 of most categories and there are guys who are for the most part but don't have their jersey's hanging. Even in the categories he was lauded for such as PPG, Total Points, and assists per game he doesn't crack the top 5 except for total assists where he's sitting right at #5. I'm sorry but his fan club need to let this die. Their vision is clouded by present circumstance but in the breath of the Hawks history he hasn't distinguished himself with enough personal achievements and certainly with any team achievements to make it up to that exclusive club above the hardwood. Edited July 3, 2012 by MaceCase

[NiquesBiggestFan]

I wouldn't put Joe on the rafters unless he was cleaning the cobwebs.

[niremetal]

Comparing Iverson and JJ is like comparing apples to oranges...or at least Red Delicious to Granny Smith. They were asked to play different roles and took very different approaches to the game on both ends of the floor. Like the debate over who is GOAT, it depends on what you're looking for, who the player is surrounded with, and the type of system in which he's playing.I don't see how Iverson could have fit in with the Hawks' roster over the past 5 years. I would venture a guess that if you just did a straight swap-out, the Hawks would have done worse with AI than with JJ (yes, even the AI in his prime). Especially considering how much the Hawks would have been destroyed on backcourt defense.Then again, put JJ on the '01 Sixers and that team doesn't come close to the Finals.So yeah....don't see much sense in arguing over this.PS: Red Delicious >>>>>> Granny Smith.

Edited July 3, 2012 by niremetal

[sillent]

He has only 2 more seasons on Smitty but I guess I should just fall back on my meme "6 All Stars".

If Smitty isn't up there then why should Joe be? Joe is just a Smitty type player in a different era contract aside. Good.. Well very good at times but not great!!

[AsaWayne]

Na. Joe was good, but Joe is not a superstar. Only superstars deserve to get jerseys retired.