JJ's best legacy as I see it.

[Diesel]

He's shown more to me in 5 years than Joe did in 7.

Great line scrub... but seriously.. what has Al shown you... Be specific? Has he developed a low post offensive scoring game? Has he developed any moves in the low post that we can count on during an offensive possession? You know... up and under... Back to the basket....dream shake...Ewing walk across the lane... What is Al's go to Move? Ok... You say his offense is in the high post... Alright. What is his goto move in the high post? Oh yeah.. that's right... face up, set shot. DO you know that if the defense is focused on Al, that shot never gets off. Al has been fortunate that most of the time when he goes to his bread and butter, he's always been wide open. He's usually wide open because of floor spacing and the attention that Joe gets when he's on the floor. His other move... if he's on the right block with a slower, smaller defender, he might drive if the defense is spread. That's not a goto move, that's a situational score. Offensively, Al is the least enticing player we have. Seriously. His offense is made up of hustle scores, put backs, fast break dunks, alley opps, and wide open looks from the high post. When somebody says that's your C, it makes you throw up in your mouth a little. If that's the PF, I could live with it. However, we all know that if AL goes to PF, he loses his speed advantage that allows him to get those situational scores. The things to love about Al is his hustle points and his enthusiasm. However, we are all deluding ourselves if we believe that Al is going to all the sudden be a breakout offensive force. He cannot create for himself. He hasn't shown us a goto move that's capable of being used under most situations. If you think that Al shows you more than Joe.... God bless you.

[Diesel]

Honestly I'd say that Horford is the player that turned the team around. We didn't even make it to the playoffs until his rookie year, you know why? Because he was/is the best player on the team.

OK... Scrub... I missed this before... but here's my question to you...

If Horf is the player that turned the team around... Why did we do better this year without Horf than we did the year before with him?

Last year, we won 60.6% of our games - without Horf playing in most of those.

The year before we won 53.7% of our games with Horf playing in all of them.

If he's the difference maker and responsible for the franchises turn around... how could this be?

Was his cheering from Home that good?

Maybe teams feared what Horf would do when he got back?

Maybe it was the curse of Tito?

[Diesel]

I'm a JJ fan but let's be real, if it weren't for the lack of talent in the east shooting guard position Joe wouldn't have 6 all stars under his belt. Same with Horford. That doesn't make Joe less of a player, but the all star accolades have as much to do with Joe being in the east as it does him earning it through production.

Let me point out a few things... Last years votes: 1. Derrick Rose 1,514,723 2. Dwyane Wade 1,334,223 3. Rajon Rondo 547,110 4. Ray Allen 382,147 5. Deron Williams 208,697 6. Jose Calderon 132,167 7. Richard Hamilton 111,368 8. John Wall 96,606 9. Kyrie Irving 96,346 10. Joe Johnson 66,145 2011's voting: 1. Dwyane Wade 2,048,175 2. Derrick Rose 1,914,996 3. Rajon Rondo 1,587,297 4. Ray Allen 890,951 5. Raymond Felton 397,301 6. John Wall 337,368 7. Gilbert Arenas 312,903 8. Brandon Jennings 301,225 9. Jamal Crawford 246,130 10. Joe Johnson 224,571 Joe was always the last guy in the top 10. That means that there were 10 other guards ahead of him. Once Dwayne Wade was choosen, the pick could go to any guard. Rondo, Wall, etc. However, for some reason, Joe's name always rose to the top? Coaches chose him. I don't thnk it was based on his popularity... I think Coaches though about the guy that always gives my team problems.

[thecampster]

Let me point out a few things... Last years votes: 1. Derrick Rose 1,514,723 2. Dwyane Wade 1,334,223 3. Rajon Rondo 547,110 4. Ray Allen 382,147 5. Deron Williams 208,697 6. Jose Calderon 132,167 7. Richard Hamilton 111,368 8. John Wall 96,606 9. Kyrie Irving 96,346 10. Joe Johnson 66,145 2011's voting: 1. Dwyane Wade 2,048,175 2. Derrick Rose 1,914,996 3. Rajon Rondo 1,587,297 4. Ray Allen 890,951 5. Raymond Felton 397,301 6. John Wall 337,368 7. Gilbert Arenas 312,903 8. Brandon Jennings 301,225 9. Jamal Crawford 246,130 10. Joe Johnson 224,571 Joe was always the last guy in the top 10. That means that there were 10 other guards ahead of him. Once Dwayne Wade was choosen, the pick could go to any guard. Rondo, Wall, etc. However, for some reason, Joe's name always rose to the top? Coaches chose him. I don't thnk it was based on his popularity... I think Coaches though about the guy that always gives my team problems.

10th in Guards is 25th in NBA fan voting when considering Center, Forwards, Guards. Fans vote based on scoring and whose name they hear on SportsCenter. Your guy is still 25th in that list then. I think this is what frustrates more people on this board then anything. The Hyperbole vs the realism. It's always JJ is the greatest or JJ sucks. The realists say, he was a very good player who wasn't worth his contract and in a team world, that matters. To get better, we must drop JJ and replace him with a better sum of parts. The same is said for Josh, Al, Marvin. Marvin was a decent player and will do well in Utah. Marvin was worth 7.5 million based on potential but not production. It's fair to say that. It's fair to say flipping Marvin's contract for Harris is a win for the Hawks because Harris makes people better. Josh is my favorite player. I see him as a complete sum of parts in one. Good defense, good offense, good passing, etc....not great at anything except weak side help. But people on the board feel the need to say "terrible BBIQ", he's awful, etc. Or with Al...he's boring, just consistent, not big enough, etc. I believe in fair assessment....a player is what a player is. Be honest. JJ is not a superstar. He's a good player, worth Al/Smoove money and lucky to be in those 6 all star appearances...He probably deserved 3 for sure. But he is not a superstar, not a max contract guy and would experience a deteriorating skill set with an inflating contract. It's easy to say Diesel, just try....say...."It was time!"

[thecampster]

OK... Scrub... I missed this before... but here's my question to you... If Horf is the player that turned the team around... Why did we do better this year without Horf than we did the year before with him? Last year, we won 60.6% of our games - without Horf playing in most of those. The year before we won 53.7% of our games with Horf playing in all of them. If he's the difference maker and responsible for the franchises turn around... how could this be? Was his cheering from Home that good? Maybe teams feared what Horf would do when he got back? Maybe it was the curse of Tito?

That sir is an easy answer. Josh and Teague matured. They were the only 2 to play every game. They accounted for 32.5% of the team scoring for the year. 39% of the team assists. 29.1% of the rebounds. 37.1% of the steals and 50.1% of the blocked shots. made 33% of the team free throws and neither got the freebies at the end of the game. Shot a combine 47% from the floor. This is what happened, Teague and Smith put the team on their backs this year and refused to lose. Smith on a bum knee, Teague with shaky 3 pointer confidence and 2 players constantly barking at him. JJ did his job...he helped the baby hawks grow up.

[Diesel]

That sir is an easy answer. Josh and Teague matured. They were the only 2 to play every game. They accounted for 32.5% of the team scoring for the year. 39% of the team assists. 29.1% of the rebounds. 37.1% of the steals and 50.1% of the blocked shots. made 33% of the team free throws and neither got the freebies at the end of the game. Shot a combine 47% from the floor. This is what happened, Teague and Smith put the team on their backs this year and refused to lose. Smith on a bum knee, Teague with shaky 3 pointer confidence and 2 players constantly barking at him. JJ did his job...he helped the baby hawks grow up.

Josh and Teague matured? Maybe Teague... but Josh. Josh was better in 2007 under Woody. I haven't looked at the numbers that hard, but I think Josh took more low percentage this year than he did 2 yrs ago. I think what you meant to say is that Josh had more scoring opportunities. If I had to guess I would say that he shot 5 more baskets per game with Horf being out. Teague definitely matured. However, Teague/Hinrich versus BibbyorHinrich/Crawford... ?? I think Crawford brought more to the table.

[Robdawg]

one factor that many people forget to mention is that JJ effectively ran professional hockey out of Atlanta. while I do not blame Joe for signing a max deal (who wouldn't?) it dried up the cash flow for the ASG, thus committing almost all of their budget to the Hawks.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I'm a JJ fan but let's be real, if it weren't for the lack of talent in the east shooting guard position Joe wouldn't have 6 all stars under his belt. Same with Horford. That doesn't make Joe less of a player, but the all star accolades have as much to do with Joe being in the east as it does him earning it through production.

Right.

Because with the hard nosed defense they played in the "elite" Western Conference, JJ's numbers were always lower vs the West, than they were vs the East and there's no way possible he could perform at the level he did vs the "poor" Eastern Conference competition.

Oh wait . . . . no they weren't

2007 West Guards: Kobe, T-Mac, Allen, Parker

This was JJ's highest scoring year in which he averaged 25 ppg ( 26.4 ppg vs Wastern Conference competition ). Instead of the West taking 4 guards, they'd take 5 guards, and leave Josh Howard ( the 5th forward on the team ) off the squad.

2008 West All-Star Guards: Kobe, Iverson, Nash, Paul, Roy

The first 4 make it in easily. The last guard spot would be down to Brandon Roy or Joe Johnson

Roy

19.1 ppg . . . 5.8 asst . . . 4.7 rebs . . . 45% FG . . . 34% 3FG . . . 75% FT

Johnson

21.7 ppg . . . 5.8 asst . . . 4.5 rebs . . . 43% FG . . . 38% 3FG . . . 83% FT

With that being Roy's 2nd year, and JJ being an established player in the league by then ( and having better overall production ), JJ gets the nod.

2009 West All-Star Guards: Kobe, Paul, Roy, Parker, Billups

Roy would not be denied a spot on this team. As the 2nd PG, Parker wouldn't either. So the final spot would come down to Billups or Joe Johnson. By this time, Billups is already a household name, and is helping Carmelo get Denver a top 4 playoff spot. But once again, JJ is getting it done.

Billups

17.9 ppg . . . 6.4 asst . . . 3.0 rebs . . . 42% FG . . . 41% 3FG . . . 91% FT

Johnson

21.4 ppg . . . 5.8 asst . . . 4.4 rebs . . . 44% FG . . . 36% 3FG . . . 83% FT

It would be a hard decision for the coaches, but they probably go with Billups

2010 West All-Star Guards: Nash, Deron, Billups, Kidd

Kobe is hurt, so he doesn't play. The league replaces Kobe with Jason Kidd. But JJ EASILY makes this team even if Kobe wasn't hurt. He had a very good all-around year in 2010 and would get in over Kidd.

2011 West All-Star Guards: Kobe, Paul, Ginobli, Deron, Westbrook

This would be the first season in which JJ definitely doesn't make it in. JJ struggled most of 2010 - 11 season, and only made the All-Star team in the East because of the monster January he had. Despite his numbers being better vs Western Conference competition that year, it still wouldn't have been enough to get him in had he played most of his games vs the West.

2012 West All-Star Guards: Bryant, Paul, Westbrook, Parker, Nash

Can't argue too much with those selections, especially seeing that JJ didn't start the 1st half of the year playing at an All-Star level. His game picked up considerably after the All-Star break.

So instead of 6-time All-Star Joe Johnson, we're talking about a 3 or 4 time All-Star Joe Johnson if he played in the West. His skill + durability enabled him to be in the running for an All-Star spot in 6 of the 7 years he played with the Hawks. But JJ's production is right there to be considered with those West guards, save for the last 2 years under Drew in which his role and shot attempts were reduced

[NineOhTheRino]

Why on earth are we wasting time talking about a guy who has never made it past the second round? I would not describe his time here as a failure, but I damn sure would not call it a success either. Bottom line is Joe is a so-so player that had little impact on this team's legacy.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

10th in Guards is 25th in NBA fan voting when considering Center, Forwards, Guards. Fans vote based on scoring and whose name they hear on SportsCenter. Your guy is still 25th in that list then.

I think this is what frustrates more people on this board then anything. The Hyperbole vs the realism. It's always JJ is the greatest or JJ sucks. The realists say, he was a very good player who wasn't worth his contract and in a team world, that matters. To get better, we must drop JJ and replace him with a better sum of parts.

The same is said for Josh, Al, Marvin. Marvin was a decent player and will do well in Utah. Marvin was worth 7.5 million based on potential but not production. It's fair to say that. It's fair to say flipping Marvin's contract for Harris is a win for the Hawks because Harris makes people better. Josh is my favorite player. I see him as a complete sum of parts in one. Good defense, good offense, good passing, etc....not great at anything except weak side help. But people on the board feel the need to say "terrible BBIQ", he's awful, etc. Or with Al...he's boring, just consistent, not big enough, etc. I believe in fair assessment....a player is what a player is. Be honest. JJ is not a superstar. He's a good player, worth Al/Smoove money and lucky to be in those 6 all star appearances...He probably deserved 3 for sure. But he is not a superstar, not a max contract guy and would experience a deteriorating skill set with an inflating contract. It's easy to say Diesel, just try....say...."It was time!"

JJ is not a superstar.

He was/is a good player worth more than Al and Smith because neither guy has had a gameplan up to this point to try to limit or shut down their production. The focus was ALWAYS to try to make life as difficult as possible for JJ. He was always the "head of the snake" for the Hawks. Cut off the head, and the body dies. And that almost always happened to the Hawks, when teams effectively forced JJ into a non-efficient performance on the court.

Had Horford or Smith been good enough to consistently take up the slack when JJ played poorly, the team would've had a little more success. Smith showed that he could do it on occasion last season. Horford did it in two of the playoff games. We'll see if each can consistently do it with the "head" now gone.

But to say he was "lucky" to make 6 All-Star teams, is just borderline on "hating". He definitely deserved the previous 5 selections, with only last year's selection to be questionable.

The REAL problem with the Joe Johnson debate is the fact that those that don't like the dude ( as a person or as a player ), try to knock him down a few notches and reduce him to a complimentary player on the Hawks, instead of the dude that every coach in the league tried to stop. And that's why that dude got so much respect from the coaches, and got their votes come time to select the All-Star reserves.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Why on earth are we wasting time talking about a guy who has never made it past the second round? I would not describe his time here as a failure, but I damn sure would not call it a success either. Bottom line is Joe is a so-so player that had little impact on this team's legacy.

And this is exactly the type of thing that I was talking about in my last post. Now he's a so-so player? Haha. News flash: NO HAWK since Bob Pettit has made it past the 2nd round. So I guess we can't talk about any Hawk, since all of them have been failures, from Nique to Smitty to Johnson.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Josh and Teague matured? Maybe Teague... but Josh. Josh was better in 2007 under Woody. I haven't looked at the numbers that hard, but I think Josh took more low percentage this year than he did 2 yrs ago. I think what you meant to say is that Josh had more scoring opportunities. If I had to guess I would say that he shot 5 more baskets per game with Horf being out. Teague definitely matured. However, Teague/Hinrich versus BibbyorHinrich/Crawford... ?? I think Crawford brought more to the table.

Josh had the best statistical season of his career. Josh also had the worst offensive efficiency of his career. So it depends on which side of the Josh Smith debate you're on, as to how you look at his offense last year.

[ATLscrubLove]

OK... Scrub... I missed this before... but here's my question to you... If Horf is the player that turned the team around... Why did we do better this year without Horf than we did the year before with him? Last year, we won 60.6% of our games - without Horf playing in most of those. The year before we won 53.7% of our games with Horf playing in all of them. If he's the difference maker and responsible for the franchises turn around... how could this be? Was his cheering from Home that good? Maybe teams feared what Horf would do when he got back? Maybe it was the curse of Tito?

Because Smoove stepped up and played to his potential ( for the most part ). Plus Horf gave some encouragement from the sideline, he was probably still being the leader without even playing. Oh and lets not forget when Horf returned in the playoffs, sure he missed a game deciding free throw in game 6 in crunch time but lets be honest. If Horf wasn't in the lineup we wouldve lost game 5... Easy

[MaceCase]

Problem with this post is that it is extremely subjective towards your bias and has some glaring holes.

Right.

Because with the hard nosed defense they played in the "elite" Western Conference, JJ's numbers were always lower vs the West, than they were vs the East and there's no way possible he could perform at the level he did vs the "poor" Eastern Conference competition.

Oh wait . . . . no they weren't

Did you somehow manage to omit the number of times he faced the western conference? The sample of seeing a team no more than twice a year skews statistics if not game preparations. I don't even see how this point is valid overall to the entirety of the argument.

2007 West Guards: Kobe, T-Mac, Allen, Parker

This was JJ's highest scoring year in which he averaged 25 ppg ( 26.4 ppg vs Wastern Conference competition ). Instead of the West taking 4 guards, they'd take 5 guards, and leave Josh Howard ( the 5th forward on the team ) off the squad.

So.....they'd leave the only other representative from a nearly 70 win team to put in a guy putting up stats on the 5th worst team in the league? Ray was already the representative from a bad team so no, JJ does not make it this year in the West unless you are going to argue that Monta Ellis should have 3 appearances too. If anything, if they didn't take Howard as the 5th forward they would have taken Terry as the 5th guard over Joe that year to have the best team in the league represented.

2008 West All-Star Guards: Kobe, Iverson, Nash, Paul, Roy

The first 4 make it in easily. The last guard spot would be down to Brandon Roy or Joe Johnson

Roy

19.1 ppg . . . 5.8 asst . . . 4.7 rebs . . . 45% FG . . . 34% 3FG . . . 75% FT

Johnson

21.7 ppg . . . 5.8 asst . . . 4.5 rebs . . . 43% FG . . . 38% 3FG . . . 83% FT

With that being Roy's 2nd year, and JJ being an established player in the league by then ( and having better overall production ), JJ gets the nod.

You are making the same mistake again, you are thinking that JJ's stats are enough alone to get him in over guys on better winning squads with identical stats. Worst amongst this is the omission of JJ vs. the guys who didn't make the All Star team and not just the last guard who did such as:

Deron Williams 19 and 10.5

Kevin Martin 24 and 4.5

Golden State that finished with 48 wins to the Hawks 37 that year and had neither of Baron, SJax or Monta represent them despite each averaging 20 points a game.

Manu who was the Spurs leading scorer with 20, 5, and 5.

No, Joe does not make it this year.....

2010 West All-Star Guards: Nash, Deron, Billups, Kidd

Kobe is hurt, so he doesn't play. The league replaces Kobe with Jason Kidd. But JJ EASILY makes this team even if Kobe wasn't hurt. He had a very good all-around year in 2010 and would get in over Kidd.

Uhm, 3 guards were injured this year, Roy, Paul and Kobe so already Joe is having a hard case proving that he's a deserving guard if yet another 3 are ahead of him. Kidd was a political choice as a hometown representative (ASG was in Dallas), Parker and Ginobili had "down" years but Kevin Martin is still doing his thing with no recognition and Monta is averaging 25, 5, 4 and 2 steals and even Tyreke is putting up his historic rookie season of 20, 6, and 5. This is the whole point of the depth of the West guards, Joe is at least fortunate to actually be winning by this time (team wins 50 games but sports another All Star and All NBAer, All Defense player and 6th Man of the Year) but considering that he wouldn't have made his previous All Stars in the West he won't be "established" enough to be a lock this year either.

Going through it.......I believe that one can say without being accused of any amount of hater bias that Joe Johnson indeed benefitted from being a guard in the East.

[benhillboy]

Just curious, what is Joe's point total from his 5 All-Star Games?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Problem with this post is that it is extremely subjective towards your bias and has some glaring holes.

Did you somehow manage to omit the number of times he faced the western conference? The sample of seeing a team no more than twice a year skews statistics if not game preparations. I don't even see how this point is valid overall to the entirety of the argument.

Of course you don't. Because your post will go completely the opposite way of my post, and try to tear JJ down at every point. It's all good.

I mean, because I know the teams in the Western Conference had no idea who Joe Johnson was before he came to ATL, because of the limited number of games he played against Western Conference competition ( 182 games + 15 playoff games in 4 years vs the West before coming to ATL ). They had no idea who he was or what his game was about.

Not only that. JJ, because of the limited amount of games he played vs the West before coming to ATL ( 182 reg. season games + 15 playoff games ), couldn't possibly play the fast paced style of play out West. He just couldn't do it. And he couldn't even put up even better numbers as a Hawk vs the West, because he is/was incapable of improving as a player ( averaged 20+ ppg vs the West in 6 of his 7 years in ATL ).

So.....they'd leave the only other representative from a nearly 70 win team to put in a guy putting up stats on the 5th worst team in the league? Ray was already the representative from a bad team so no, JJ does not make it this year in the West unless you are going to argue that Monta Ellis should have 3 appearances too. If anything, if they didn't take Howard as the 5th forward they would have taken Terry as the 5th guard over Joe that year to have the best team in the league represented.

Of course. Because JJ was only mediocre that season ( 9th in the NBA in scoring that year and 4th in scoring in the West. ). It doesn't matter that he was one of 7 players who averaged at least 25 pts - 4 rebs - 4 assists that year.

It doesn't matter that every single one of those guys ( whether they played on a bad team or not ), made the All-Star team that year.

Nope.

Because he's Joe Johnson, we're going to leave him off of that list, in favor of either for Josh Howard or Jason Terry, because they just HAVE to have 2 players from the Mavs on the team. A Mavs team that was supposed to be the 3rd greatest team in NBA history . . . but get bounced by a 42 - 40 team that hadn't made the playoffs in 12 years . . . in the First Round.

You are making the same mistake again, you are thinking that JJ's stats are enough alone to get him in over guys on better winning squads with identical stats. Worst amongst this is the omission of JJ vs. the guys who didn't make the All Star team and not just the last guard who did such as:

Deron Williams 19 and 10.5

Kevin Martin 24 and 4.5

Golden State that finished with 48 wins to the Hawks 37 that year and had neither of Baron, SJax or Monta represent them despite each averaging 20 points a game.

Manu who was the Spurs leading scorer with 20, 5, and 5.

No, Joe does not make it this year.....

Of course. Because the goal of this exercise is to keep Joe Johnson OUT of the All-Star game at ALL COSTS. When he has the stats to get in the game, let's raise the bar and say that his team isn't winning enough. When he's performed at a high level for now the 3rd year in a row and has made a name for himself, that doesn't matter either. We are going to continue to throw every road block in the way, so that JJ doesn't get in.

22 - 6 - and 4 that year? The 3rd year in a row that you've been at least a 20 - 4 and 4 player? Nope. Sorry JJ. You get no consideration whatsoever. Oh, and you don't play defense better than those guys either. Don't forget that.

Uhm, 3 guards were injured this year, Roy, Paul and Kobe so already Joe is having a hard case proving that he's a deserving guard if yet another 3 are ahead of him. Kidd was a political choice as a hometown representative (ASG was in Dallas), Parker and Ginobili had "down" years but Kevin Martin is still doing his thing with no recognition and Monta is averaging 25, 5, 4 and 2 steals and even Tyreke is putting up his historic rookie season of 20, 6, and 5. This is the whole point of the depth of the West guards, Joe is at least fortunate to actually be winning by this time (team wins 50 games but sports another All Star and All NBAer, All Defense player and 6th Man of the Year) but considering that he wouldn't have made his previous All Stars in the West he won't be "established" enough to be a lock this year either.

Going through it.......I believe that one can say without being accused of any amount of hater bias that Joe Johnson indeed benefitted from being a guard in the East.

And let's put the final bar to put in front of Joe Johnson's quest to be an All-Star.

The INJURY BAR

Let's cite the fact that there are people supposedly better than JJ are hurt, to down whatever chance or shot he would have had at an All-Star berth. Because we all know that injuries are NOT part of the game. Injuries are NOT supposed to happen to star players. And because of that, any player that benefits from that star being out, is a SCRUB.

53 team wins ( and possibly could've been higher if the Hawks played in the West and not the East ( .700 winning percentage vs West teams that year . . 21 - 9 . . . .615 winning percentage vs the East . . 32 - 20 )

The consistency to be a 20 pt - 4 reb and 4 ast player for 5 years straight ( 2005 - 10 ), with only 3 other players in the league who could claim to do that in that 5 year span ( Lebron, Kobe, Wade ).

NO JOE JOHNSON . . . ( talking in my Maury Voice ) . . you are NOT an All-Star.

(( Doing the "JJ you are NOT an All-Star dance" ))

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt2i0ts-uck

[thecampster]

Of course you don't. Because your post will go completely the opposite way of my post, and try to tear JJ down at every point. It's all good.

I mean, because I know the teams in the Western Conference had no idea who Joe Johnson was before he came to ATL, because of the limited number of games he played against Western Conference competition ( 182 games + 15 playoff games in 4 years vs the West before coming to ATL ). They had no idea who he was or what his game was about.

Not only that. JJ, because of the limited amount of games he played vs the West before coming to ATL ( 182 reg. season games + 15 playoff games ), couldn't possibly play the fast paced style of play out West. He just couldn't do it. And he couldn't even put up even better numbers as a Hawk vs the West, because he is/was incapable of improving as a player ( averaged 20+ ppg vs the West in 6 of his 7 years in ATL ).

Of course. Because JJ was only mediocre that season ( 9th in the NBA in scoring that year and 4th in scoring in the West. ). It doesn't matter that he was one of 7 players who averaged at least 25 pts - 4 rebs - 4 assists that year.

It doesn't matter that every single one of those guys ( whether they played on a bad team or not ), made the All-Star team that year.

Nope.

Because he's Joe Johnson, we're going to leave him off of that list, in favor of either for Josh Howard or Jason Terry, because they just HAVE to have 2 players from the Mavs on the team. A Mavs team that was supposed to be the 3rd greatest team in NBA history . . . but get bounced by a 42 - 40 team that hadn't made the playoffs in 12 years . . . in the First Round.

Of course. Because the goal of this exercise is to keep Joe Johnson OUT of the All-Star game at ALL COSTS. When he has the stats to get in the game, let's raise the bar and say that his team isn't winning enough. When he's performed at a high level for now the 3rd year in a row and has made a name for himself, that doesn't matter either. We are going to continue to throw every road block in the way, so that JJ doesn't get in.

22 - 6 - and 4 that year? The 3rd year in a row that you've been at least a 20 - 4 and 4 player? Nope. Sorry JJ. You get no consideration whatsoever. Oh, and you don't play defense better than those guys either. Don't forget that.

And let's put the final bar to put in front of Joe Johnson's quest to be an All-Star.

The INJURY BAR

Let's cite the fact that there are people supposedly better than JJ are hurt, to down whatever chance or shot he would have had at an All-Star berth. Because we all know that injuries are NOT part of the game. Injuries are NOT supposed to happen to star players. And because of that, any player that benefits from that star being out, is a SCRUB.

53 team wins ( and possibly could've been higher if the Hawks played in the West and not the East ( .700 winning percentage vs West teams that year . . 21 - 9 . . . .615 winning percentage vs the East . . 32 - 20 )

The consistency to be a 20 pt - 4 reb and 4 ast player for 5 years straight ( 2005 - 10 ), with only 3 other players in the league who could claim to do that in that 5 year span ( Lebron, Kobe, Wade ).

NO JOE JOHNSON . . . ( talking in my Maury Voice ) . . you are NOT an All-Star.

(( Doing the "JJ you are NOT an All-Star dance" ))

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt2i0ts-uck

SMH

3 years - great production. 6 year all star. notice how the numbers don't add up. Take the craziness out and answer this question.

Which of these years is a shoe in all star year? If Joe Bagodonuts put up these numbers, is he an all star?

18.8 / 3.7 / 3.9

18.2 / 4.0 / 4.7

20.2 / 4.1 / 6.5

Also notice the 4 year numbers trend. Just say it....it was time.

Edited August 3, 2012 by thecampster

[Diesel]

Why on earth are we wasting time talking about a guy who has never made it past the second round? I would not describe his time here as a failure, but I damn sure would not call it a success either. Bottom line is Joe is a so-so player that had little impact on this team's legacy.

And Nique is in the Hall of fame.

[Diesel]

And this is exactly the type of thing that I was talking about in my last post. Now he's a so-so player? Haha. News flash: NO HAWK since Bob Pettit has made it past the 2nd round. So I guess we can't talk about any Hawk, since all of them have been failures, from Nique to Smitty to Johnson.

Yep. If you're basing it on Hawks who have made it past the second round, we need to start talking about Mutombo and Antoine Carr. IF it's supposed to be about Hawks who made it past the second round as Hawks... Hell, it's time to shut the site down because there is nothing to talk about. Make this a Bob Petit, Cliff Hagan memorial site.

[Diesel]

Because Smoove stepped up and played to his potential ( for the most part ). Plus Horf gave some encouragement from the sideline, he was probably still being the leader without even playing. Oh and lets not forget when Horf returned in the playoffs, sure he missed a game deciding free throw in game 6 in crunch time but lets be honest. If Horf wasn't in the lineup we wouldve lost game 5... Easy

Horf didn't even come to many of the games. The Horf cheerleading factor is not what propelled us to win 60% of our games. Let me make this clear for you. With no Horf, the offense became simpler. Not that Horf is a problem but we have PGs who freeze up when making decisions. With no Horf, we were able to scale down the offense and we were able to goto Josh more. The bench also saw more action. Drew did a better Job of coaching because he was able to keep JJ fresh.