Hawks sign Damion James

[Diesel]

Hawks have the deepest team in the league. I'm sure Ferry will dump a couple extras in order to get a legitimate starting SF. But this guy does show some promise. I'm sure some of our extras can get us a solid player.

Ok... I have to chime in right here. Just because we have non-superstar starters and BUs doesn't mean that we have a deep team. I would love to be depthless like the Lakers.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

Ok... I have to chime in right here. Just because we have non-superstar starters and BUs doesn't mean that we have a deep team. I would love to be depthless like the Lakers.

Maybe the Mavs or Nets, but not the Lakers. They have a serious chance to win a title now, but the Lake show will be a boring one in 2-3 seasons... We currently have a young, strong team and a superstar coming to Atlanta would be icing on the cake. If one doesn't, then we are still primed and ready to go for another 8 seasons until one does end up here (either through trades, FA, or draft). Honestly, I don't think we absolutely need a superstar because Horford is a proven All Star, Josh will be an All Star, and Jenkins will be our starting 2 guard in a few years. I really feel like Jenkins could evolve into an All Star (not to be confused with superstar). The way Ferry has this team right now, we will be making trades and winning for seasons to come, all while staying under the cap. A superstar would be a luxury, but it's not a necessity to win titles.

[gurpilo]

Seems that Both James Anderson and Damion James will compete for a roster spot as defensive minded wing. Source: http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1736/damion-james I don't think that's the plan, Anderson is a scorer and defense is one of the points he must improve. D. James is definately a decent defender. Personally I would like to have Anderson playing spot minutes at SG and SF due to his potential rather than DeShawn Stevenson or even Morrow. When playing at San Antonio Anderson showed some promise. Teague/Harris Williams/Jenkins/Anderson Korver/James/Morrow Smith/Scott/Benson?/Williams? Horford/Zaza/Petro

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Wish you would've led with this line so I could've just skipped the rest of your post

Petro last year: 11-12 NJN 59 10 15.6 0.419 1.000 0.838 1.2 2.6 3.8 0.8 0.4 0.4 0.6 2.1 4.2

Collins last year: 11-12 ATL 30 10 10.3 0.400 0.000 0.467 0.4 1.2 1.6 0.3 0.1 0.1 0.3 1.1 1.3

The numbers ain't even close, other than both are 7'0" 250ish. Collins is 33, Petro is 26. Petro shot free throws at an 84% clip, Collins at 47%. Petro averaged 4 PPG and 4 RBs in 15 mins, Collins 1 PPG and not even 2 RBs in 10 mins. Petro moves fairly well, Collins don't move. Yup, much more valuable...

LOL . . you post THIS to prove that Petro is much better than Collins? Offensive Scrub vs Offensive Scrub?

Like Petro will help us?

Petro is HORRIBLE. Collins is HORRIBLE. But Collins does something much better than Petro, that may be more valuable to a team. And that's play good post defense

According to SynergySports

Defensive FG%

- Collins: 36.8% . . ( 0.78 points per possession ) . . rank #75

- Petro: 43.5% . . ( 0.92 points per possession ) . . rank #361

Defensive Post Up FG%

- Collins: 42.9%

- Petro: 47.9%

Petro is a worse defender in EVERY CATEGORY than Collins. The ONLY thing he does better than Collins from a defensive standpoint, is rebound the basketball, and score a little bit better. He's DEFINITELY not a better defensive player than Collins.

Collins > Petro . . . . but both of them still suck.

[hazer]

I didn't say Petro was "much" better than Collins, CWebb said that Collins was "much more valuable" than Petro. I posted those numbers simply to show that Petro was younger than Collins, shot free throws at twice the clip of Collins, scored quadruple PPG as Collins, and rebounded at twice the clip Collins did. THAT'S all I was saying. Yes, they both suck. I was only pointing out that he was a better 3rd stringer than Collins. The team Petro was on also negatively skews his defensive numbers, while the opposite is true for Collins.

[hazer]

This: http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2012/09/13/atlanta-hawks-2012-13-player-profile-fc-jordan-williams/

Mainly about Williams, but Petro is included and comparisons are made to Collins. Comparisons that I couldn't agree with more...

"2. The arrival of Williams (and Johan Petro) allowed the Hawks to cut ties with Jason Collins and the unofficial team grandpa, Erick Dampier. In Williams’ only game against the Hawks last season, he scored eight points (on 3/4 shooting) and grabbed three rebounds. Collins’ on the other hand scored 0 points (on 0/2 shooting) and grabbed 2 rebounds, pretty much his season averages last year."

"While it may be foolish to expect much more from Williams than he produced last year, most Hawks fan can agree that anything is better than watching Jason Collins “run” up and down the court for 10 minutes and get winded while fouling. Williams will need to have a good camp and preseason to prove that he deserves to see the floor."

"2012-13 Projected Stats- 4.1 PPG, 3.8 RPG, a solid shooting percentage, and less embarrassing moments than Jason Collins."

Great stuff, Colin. Can't wait for the DeShawn Stevenson write up.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

This: http://www.rantsport...ordan-williams/

Mainly about Williams, but Petro is included and comparisons are made to Collins. Comparisons that I couldn't agree with more...

"2. The arrival of Williams (and Johan Petro) allowed the Hawks to cut ties with Jason Collins and the unofficial team grandpa, Erick Dampier. In Williams’ only game against the Hawks last season, he scored eight points (on 3/4 shooting) and grabbed three rebounds. Collins’ on the other hand scored 0 points (on 0/2 shooting) and grabbed 2 rebounds, pretty much his season averages last year."

"While it may be foolish to expect much more from Williams than he produced last year, most Hawks fan can agree that anything is better than watching Jason Collins “run” up and down the court for 10 minutes and get winded while fouling. Williams will need to have a good camp and preseason to prove that he deserves to see the floor."

"2012-13 Projected Stats- 4.1 PPG, 3.8 RPG, a solid shooting percentage, and less embarrassing moments than Jason Collins."

Great stuff, Colin. Can't wait for the DeShawn Stevenson write up.

Jordan Williams defensive stats:

Defensive FG%: 44.7% . . ( 0.99 points per possession ) . . rank: #427

Post Up: 43.2% FG . . ( 0.91 points per possession ) . . rank: #200

And that dude is absolutely HORRIFIC in guarding the Pick and Roll: 68.8% FG given up

When you have scrub big men who aren't going to see the ball hardly at all offensively, unless the grab an offensive rebound or someone passes it to them if they're completely wide open, you want that big man to at least be able to play defense.

Collins overall is a horrible player. But he can at least play post defense. Neither J-Will ( lol @ calling him that ) or Petro can play defense.

If either of those scrubs see 10 minutes a game for the Hawks, we're in trouble.

[Diesel]

Maybe the Mavs or Nets, but not the Lakers. They have a serious chance to win a title now, but the Lake show will be a boring one in 2-3 seasons... We currently have a young, strong team and a superstar coming to Atlanta would be icing on the cake. If one doesn't, then we are still primed and ready to go for another 8 seasons until one does end up here (either through trades, FA, or draft). Honestly, I don't think we absolutely need a superstar because Horford is a proven All Star, Josh will be an All Star, and Jenkins will be our starting 2 guard in a few years. I really feel like Jenkins could evolve into an All Star (not to be confused with superstar). The way Ferry has this team right now, we will be making trades and winning for seasons to come, all while staying under the cap. A superstar would be a luxury, but it's not a necessity to win titles.

In basketball, a superstar or two is a necessity to win titles. Look over history. Good Young teams go and die but they don't win championships.

[MaceCase]

Question for you North, have you bothered to factor total number of possessions into your critique? Because sample size does tend to matter especially when you are comparing guys that played double and triple the amount of minutes that Collins did. All those possession stats prove that if you deploy him in a very limited circumstance he'll perform but of course even that is skewed if he's only logging fractional possessions over a season.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Question for you North, have you bothered to factor total number of possessions into your critique? Because sample size does tend to matter especially when you are comparing guys that played double and triple the amount of minutes that Collins did. All those possession stats prove that if you deploy him in a very limited circumstance he'll perform but of course even that is skewed if he's only logging fractional possessions over a season.

Have you bothered to realize that the only reason why a guy like Jordan Williams got any time in the first place, was because Brooke Lopez was hurt? And Petro was one of Rick Sund's infamous big man 1st round picks while in Seattle.

Collins defensive abilities are the only reason why he's still in the league. He had success vs Kevin Garnett in the playoffs when KG tried to post him up. Not so much when KG decided to simply shoot over top of him from 15+ feet. So it's not surprising that Boston snatches him up as a scrub big man to play in certain situations ( namely against Dwight Howard and probably Andrew Bynum ).

The point per possession numbers that Collins posted last year, is simply indicative of what he's known for. Not because of the number of possessions he received. And when a player is limited like he is, the coach ( hopefully ) won't put him up against people he can't guard effectively.

Jordan Williams wasn't a garbage center in college. He would bang the offensive boards and could finish well at the rim when he got a pass. But he had little to no post game, and his defense was sorely lacking. That's why he wasn't a 1st round pick.

[MaceCase]

You didn't answer my question at all....... In fact you went out of your way to make excuses.

Al went down at the beginning of the season and then Zaza went down at the end of the season so Collins himself had ample opportunity to get minutes as well....and didn't.

That's very telling in itself. The fact you aren't giving me a total on possessions when you have acess to it is also telling.

It's like Mario West all over again, just because you are good against small guards, with 18 seconds left on the clock, at the end of quarters, every blue moon does not mean that you can now start berating guys who are tasked upon doing that and then some over a larger period.

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps if you were to do the inverse and limit Petro and Williams to Collins' very limited minutes that they'd show an improvement whereas Collins production would decrease? After all, you are utilizing a tool that averages points allowed which it won't take a rocket scientist to realize that sample size could skew the results.

Stating that Collins is still in league isn't proof of anything either and just seems to be confirmation bias because......Well explain Stackhouse then? Brian Scalabrine? Juwan Howard? These are all guys that have been or continue to collect checks and it sure aint because whatever talent they display.

Edited September 14, 2012 by MaceCase

[hazer]

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps if you were to do the inverse and limit Petro and Williams to Collins' very limited minutes that they'd show an improvement whereas Collins production would decrease? After all, you are utilizing a tool that averages points allowed which it won't take a rocket scientist to realize that sample size could skew the results.

This is what I was trying to say at the end of my last post. You articulated it much better than I did. Yeah, what he said!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

You didn't answer my question at all....... In fact you went out of your way to make excuses.

Al went down at the beginning of the season and then Zaza went down at the end of the season so Collins himself had ample opportunity to get minutes as well....and didn't.

That's very telling in itself. The fact you aren't giving me a total on possessions when you have acess to it is also telling.

It's like Mario West all over again, just because you are good against small guards, with 18 seconds left on the clock, at the end of quarters, every blue moon does not mean that you can now start berating guys who are tasked upon doing that and then some over a larger period.

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps if you were to do the inverse and limit Petro and Williams to Collins' very limited minutes that they'd show an improvement whereas Collins production would decrease? After all, you are utilizing a tool that averages points allowed which it won't take a rocket scientist to realize that sample size could skew the results.

Stating that Collins is still in league isn't proof of anything either and just seems to be confirmation bias because......Well explain Stackhouse then? Brian Scalabrine? Juwan Howard? These are all guys that have been or continue to collect checks and it sure aint because whatever talent they display.

Whether I cite the numbers or not, it's not going to matter. You'll just speak against anything I type anyway. Your assertion of Collins not having as many plays as the other guys, as a reason to dismiss his defensive numbers, can go either way. Even when Collins got more defensive plays in 2010 - 11 than both Petro and Williams did in 2011 - 12, his defensive numbers overall were still better.

Anybody who has watched Jason Collins knows that the only reason why he's been able to stay in the league ( and even get a Mid-Level contract at one point in his career ), is because he can defend big centers or low post scorers in certain situations.

That still doesn't make Collins any more than a scrub big man, which is exactly what Williams and Petro are. Williams and Petro were two of the worst defending big men in the league last year.

One interesting thing though. Of all of Collins' defensive possessions last year, 25% of them came against Kevin Garnett, which occurred during the playoffs.

24 possessions

- 8 - 21 FG for 16 points

- 2 turnovers

- 1 shooting foul ( in which KG made both FTs )

So that's 18 points on 24 possessions against one of the best Post and Mid-Range shooting big men in the NBA.

That's 38% FG shooting for Garnett at a 0.75 points per possession clip.

(( shrugs ))

[hazer]

Cool. Now back to Damien James, whose thread this is. Backup SF or 3rd stringer?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And despite those numbers vs KG, and vs other low post scoring big men, Collins isn't an ideal guy to start every game ( or even play every game ). And that is because most teams don't run offense through a stud post player like KG, or Bynum, or Dwight Howard. Collins is a scrub, because when he's going up against a center who isn't a focal point of the offense, and only focuses on offensive rebounding, Collins can't keep those types of guys off the offensive boards because he is so slow. And he has almost no chance of blocking or even deterring a shot when a small guard darts into the lane toward the rim.Collins is like a big blocking fullback you put in on goal line or short yardage situations. He'll make that key block in order for the RB to get that 1st down or touchdown, but he's no where good enough to even put on the field for any other situation BUT that type of play.Petro and Williams are guys who may "look" like they can make the block, but will occasionally miss the block, or not put a good enough block on the defender in order for the RB to get that yardage.

[MaceCase]

I guess it doesn't strike you, North, that a full quarter of a guy's entire defense came up against one guy in 85 minutes total worth of a singular playoff series........Wait, no. The entirety of his impact was broken down to 24 possessions.

At this point you should have proven to yourself that you can close the Synergy window and say, "yea, Petro and Williams are upgrades". They may be bad but at least they are not so hopelessly limited......especially when every other stat but the ~6 possessions worth of evidence you've managed to compile confirms this.

I still haven't heard why Stackhouse is still employed, Juwan Howard was the highest paid player in the league or Brian Scalabrine earning an MLE deal either over their careers.

Edited September 14, 2012 by MaceCase

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Cool. Now back to Damien James, whose thread this is. Backup SF or 3rd stringer?

Probably not even on the team. I don't know if he's on a guaranteed contract or not, but people need to keep in mind that he's been hurt the past 2 years, and has only played in 32 games. We really don't know what he can do on the NBA level, or if he's even good enough to be on an NBA roster Possible guys who can play the 3 - Smith - Korver - Morrow - Stevenson - James - Anderson Possible guys who can play the 2 - Harris - Jenkins - Williams - Stevenson - Morrow We know the Hawks have to cut somebody. I'd probably bet that if James does make the team, he'll be sent to the D-League to develop his skills. He won't be one of the 13 guys who dresses out in the rotation, unless Ferry cuts one of the veteran guys like Stevenson or Morrow.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I guess it doesn't strike you, North, that a full quarter of a guy's entire defense came up against one guy in 85 minutes total worth of a singular playoff series........Wait, no. The entirety of his impact was broken down to 24 possessions.

At this point you should have proven to yourself that you can close the Synergy window and say, "yea, Petro and Williams are upgrades". They may be bad but at least they are not so hopelessly limited......especially when every other stat but the ~6 possessions worth of evidence you've managed to compile confirms this.

I still haven't heard why Stackhouse is still employed, Juwan Howard was the highest paid player in the league or Brian Scalabrine earning an MLE deal either over their careers.

And that one player is one of the best post player of the past 15 years ( even at his "old age" ).

But like I said, it wouldn't matter if Collins' possessions came against one player, or against 20 players. Because had those 24 possessions came against Kevin Seraphin, Johan Petro, Omer Asik, Eddy Curry, and Bismack Biyombo, you'd make the case that those guys aren't offensively good enough, and that Collins' defense against them would be moot.

So forget the fact that in 1/4 of his defensive possessions he went up against one of the best post scorers in the NBA, and limited his production significantly. Nope . . throw that completely out, because that came in a span of the 4 games Collins played vs Boston.

The real question is, what does Petro and Williams upgrade? What is the one thing that you can say that they bring to the table, that can help the Hawks in ANY situation? At least with Collins, there is definitive evidence that shows that if you play him against a big man that scores in or around the paint, that he can limit his production.

What can Petro and Williams do in ANY small situation, that could impact a game as much as Collins' post defense against an All-Star caliber post player?

[MaceCase]

North, you need to stop creating these nonsensical strawman arguments especially when you are the one making such terrible excuses in the first place. Holding a guy to whatever amount of points scored in a measly 24 possession total (a quarter of the entirety of his contributions in the entire year) is not irrefutable proof of some sought after talent. Stop pretending as if I need to drop to your level and dance my way out of arguments when all you are presenting is such pathetically weak and incomplete evidence as the crux of your argument.http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=collija04&y1=2012&p2=petrojo01&y2=2012&p3=willijo03&y3=2012Here, rather than basing the entirety of you argument over a guy who only succeeded over 24 possesions why don't you consider the merit of guys that managed to perform over an exponential amount of possesions. Because....uhhh....when my starting center and backup center are injured or in foul trouble who has a greater value to me? The guy who can only check a very specific guy 6 times a game and do nothing else or guys who can impact multiple aspects over multiple scenarios over multiple minutes in multiple games? (shrugs)

[TheNorthCydeRises]

North, you need to stop creating these nonsensical strawman arguments especially when you are the one making such terrible excuses in the first place. Holding a guy to whatever amount of points scored in a measly 24 possession total (a quarter of the entirety of his contributions in the entire year) is not irrefutable proof of some sought after talent. Stop pretending as if I need to drop to your level and dance my way out of arguments when all you are presenting is such pathetically weak and incomplete evidence as the crux of your argument.

http://www.basketbal...llijo03&y3=2012

Here, rather than basing the entirety of you argument over a guy who only succeeded over 24 possesions why don't you consider the merit of guys that managed to perform over an exponential amount of possesions. Because....uhhh....when my starting center and backup center are injured or in foul trouble who has a greater value to me? The guy who can only check a very specific guy 6 times a game and do nothing else or guys who can impact multiple aspects over multiple scenarios over multiple minutes in multiple games? (shrugs)

Right. Cause when Lopez went down, he opted to play Petro and Williams to replace him. Oops . . no he didn't. He opted to play SHELDEN WILLLIAMS.

LOL . . why do you think Boston sign Jason Collins, despite him being a "useless non-offensive stat stuffer"?

If what he brings to the table as a guy who defends low post scorers isn't a "sought after talent" in the NBA, why did 2 playoff teams ( us last year and Boston this year ) sign him in consecutive years?

This will definitely be my last post on this, because I'm definitely not arguing with you tonight over 3 scrub centers. So here . . I'll give you want you want, since you think it is so significant in this discussion

Total defensive possessions

Petro - 198

Williams - 149

Collins - 97 . . ( 24 vs Kevin Garnett )

Points Per Defensive Possession

Collins - 0.78 . . ( held KG to 0.75 ppp )

Petro - 0.92

Williams - 0.99

Defensive FG%

Collins - 36.8%

Petro - 43.5%

Williams - 44.7%

Collins has made 32 ( soon to be 33 million dollars over his NBA career ), simply because he's a big guy who can play post defense vs good post players.

Those NBA teams obviously valued Collins' ability to defend "that one guy when they need him to do it". Maybe those teams place more value on defense ( even timely defense ), than you do.

We'll see how many people are singing the slight praises of Petro or Williams once the season comes.