Wow! I "just" discovered the root of our problems...

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Makes no sense to me. So we're taking sample sizes from this year? We played extremely well without Al last year. Josh can take over games on either side of the floor when he plays to his strengths, and even if he isn't, he's putting pressure on the opponents offense. When Josh is out of the game, it's telling the guards to drive right to the basket and score easily. Like I said, neither of us know what the team would play like without Josh if he went out like Horford. That's why I wish sometimes, just to shut people up, that he would sit out just to show people what they're really missing. He is much more needed than Al. Al can make some efficient shots (Well, used to be able too), and that's about it. Smoove can do it all, mainly being the anchor on defense. I say we sit him for the rest of the year, to see if Al and others can carry the team. We can win easily without him, right?

Smith being out means more playing time for Ivan Johnson. Ivan Johnson is a better offensive player than Josh Smith, but nowhere near the defensive presence he is. But give Ivan 25 - 30 minutes a game, he could easily average 12 - 16 points and 8 rebounds on much better shooting ( 47% or higher ).Horford's production would go up. Zaza's production and minutes would go up. And Teague would be handling the ball more.While Josh's ability to help people out and defend at the rim would be gone, the question would be if the team as a whole could still get stops? In the few games in which Josh didn't play this year, the answer to that question has been YES . . . with the offense being much better as well.Josh needs to accept a complimentary role on the team, and not be the lead dog. Overall, he's just not a good halfcourt offensive player from a scoring standpoint. He'd be great as a playmaker from the high post. But as the primary scorer? Nah.With the people who can replace Al, the team definitely wouldn't collapse without Josh. Don't know if we'd be better, but we wouldn't collapse.This isn't the old days, in which Josh's backup is Shelden Williams and Matt Freije. Edited January 7, 2013 by northcyde

[AHawks89]

So you're saying we don't need Al or Smoove?

[Gray Mule]

What concerned me against the Celtics in the 3rd was the ball

going to Josh, over and over, with him outside and Josh taking

shot after shot - - - and missing them.

Why? Why did he insist on staying outside? And, why did the

Hawks continue to feed him the ball?

On defense, Horford and Josh were not really what they should

have been in the third. Our two toughest, meanest players play

those same positions but they were both on the bench.

We all know that neither Horford or Josh is 100% healthy. That

may be part of the problem but it doesn't explain all those long

two point attempts.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So you're saying we don't need Al or Smoove?

I'm saying that neither of them are untouchable to the point that the Hawks would be completely lost if one of them went down. Zaza is a good, but inconsistent backup C, and Ivan is a good offensive backup PF.The other thing is that both Josh and Al take the same type of shots. It's not like one of them lives in the post, and we'd miss their post offense. Both of them love to shoot jumpers. So if one of them is out of the game, maybe a better jumpshooter gets to take some of their shots, or a guard gets more opportunities to penetrate to the hole, or a more physical man defender gets to be in the game who doesn't get blocks and steals . . . just stops.Remember Game 3 last year of the playoffs, in which Josh Smith ( and Zaza and Horford ) didn't play? This was our starting lineup.PG - TeagueG - HinrichF - JohnsonPF - WilliamsC - CollinsA game in which most Hawk fans were convinced we'd get blown out by 20+ points, turned out to be an OT thriller with the Hawks losing by 6. Why?- Collins played solid defense on KG, until KG made the adjustment and started shooting outside jumpers- Marvin, who sucked offensively, grabbed 11 boards . . or in other words, the defensive rebounds that Josh had grabbed in Games 1 and 2- JJ took as many shots in a game as you'll ever see him take ( 28 FG attempts ). And while he did shoot bad ( 11 - 28 FG ) he still managed to score 29 points and grabbed 8 rebounds- Teague played his best game of the playoffs, constantly staying on the attack and scored 23 points on 16 FG attempts- And for at least 1/2 of the game, Tracy McGrady found the fountain of youth and had a big 2nd quarter to keep the Hawks right with Boston. It would've been interesting to see how the game would've turned out, had T-Mac not physically broken down in the 2nd half.- Even a big vet like Dampier gave us decent minutes and production ( 6 points - 6 rebounds ).Of course, this is just one game, and not over a span of a few games. But the fact is that everything that Josh and Al and Zaza brought to the table was REPLACED by a collective group of guys doing specific things, while guys like JJ, Teague, and T-Mac concentrated on scoring the basketball.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So let's say Josh goes down with an injury that sidelines him for a month. Here SHOULD be the lineupPG - TeagueG - StevensonF - KorverPF - HorfordC - Zaza6th - Williams7th - Ivan8th - Jenkins/Morrow/Harris9th - Tolliver/PetroSo we move Horford to PF and Zaza to center. Zaza gets to start and play about 30 minutes a game. Horford gets more touches and shots in the halfcourt offense. Teague gets more control of the ball, especially in transition. The roles of Korver and Stevenson doesn't change.With no good center on the bench, Drew is forced to rotate both Zaza and Horford at center, by playing Ivan many more minutes at PF ( unless Drew opts to play Tolliver ). Ivan has produced all year when given extended minutes.So if we have guys who can replace Josh's point and rebound production, what is missing with Josh out of the lineup?- his defense ( mainly his help defense )- his low BBIQ plays on offenseOne of these things being out of the lineup is a GOOD thing. The other, not so good. So now, the only thing the TEAM and the coach has to do, is hold their own on defense, without the blocks, steals, deflections, and shot alterations that Josh provides. The Celtics prove that you don't need a shot blocker to play good to great defense.

[TheFuzz]

It's not only the atrocius offense he showed yesterday but also the disastrous defense he and Horford made, Celtics scored at the paint with high percentages and outrebounded us.

The only bright spot from yesterday's game was Teague and of course Lou, great game by Williams.

The Celtics don't post up. We can't stop guards from getting in the lane. Our best defenders are our 3 (Korver, who'd be better as a 2), 4, and 5 (though Horford's defense has been disappointing), and they collectively lack length at those positions, so when our guards let people blow by them we get destroyed.

I'd say rebounding and perimeter defense are at least as pressing as Smith's awful jumpers.

Edited January 7, 2013 by TheFuzz

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

So you're saying we don't need Al or Smoove?

Josh is a defensive All Star. Unfornately, no one cares. You have to realize to whom you're arguing... A lot of casual fans only care about ppg and shot% when it comes to production. Other stats like apg, bpg, rpg, spg and more advanced stats like per/oper get thrown to the curbside. Josh's strengths is his defense not offense. The more touted stars in the league average boatloads of points. If fans cared about all-around games, guys like Kobe and Carmelo wouldn't be valued so highly. Even Dwight who is a DPOTY is better known by fans for his dunks. People care about points and Josh just isn't scoring at an efficient enough rate to keep them happy. He has been attacking the hoop more, but he doesn't have the touch to be effective down there. His FT% is atrocious. I really really really wish would just let the guys around him like Lou, Teague, Horford, Korver, and even Jenkins be the scorers and just work within his niche which is defense. Then get his points in transition and on 2nd chance plays. Josh is not the type of guy that needs to be a volume shooter; he needs to be limited to 12 shots per game. At times he tries WAY too hard to be Kobe...And agree that this team would fall apart w/o Josh out there. The time that he has missed the team just moved into rally mode. It's like when the backup QB comes into the game and the team rallies around him to get the W, but how long do you think that team can continue to win w/o the starting QB?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ruckus]

Josh is a good defender but overrated at the same time. He gets burned a lot but also helps out a lot.

[BrazilianHawk]

The root of the hawks problems is the same problem 22 other teams have. We lack a top 10 player. Until we get one we should at least enjoy the fact that we've had a winning team for the last 6 seasons. We could be bobcats or warrior fans. I dislike some of the shots josh takes but I enjoy watching all the other things he does.

Me too.

I enjoy watching Josh turning the ball over while pretending he is a freaking PG and the passes he lauches directly to the backboard. Tell me about some awesome plays. TOO FUNNY!

[BrazilianHawk]

The other thing is that both Josh and Al take the same type of shots. It's not like one of them lives in the post, and we'd miss their post offense.

The obvious difference here is Al can hit them at a decent clip, while Josh can't.

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2013/1/3/3829076/josh-smith-and-al-horford-why-the-hawks-have-staying-power

Of course, this is just one game, and not over a span of a few games. But the fact is that everything that Josh and Al and Zaza brought to the table was REPLACED by a collective group of guys doing specific things, while guys like JJ, Teague, and T-Mac concentrated on scoring the basketball.

Someone should teach Josh the meaning of those words.

[Jody23]

Anyone who looks at this objectively cannot and will not deny that Josh is important to the team. But it seems some desperately want him to belong to a certain echelon of players and thus want to overstate or inflate his importance. The numbers Northcyde cited in addition to what has been seen in several instances support the fact that much (not all) of what he does can be compensated for when he's not in the lineup and that when he's in hero-ball mode, his overall impact is more detrimental than positive. It is not necessary for Josh to miss extended time to see the clear trends.And to suggest that the reason the Hawks won or have played well without Josh is due to some temporary "rally mode" is laughable. I guess the Hawks were in "rally mode" for an entire season without Al who happens to lead the Hawks in PER this season with Josh available. Again, no one player on this team is so important that the team would fall apart without him.

[Diesel]

Just to add my two cents. I think Josh brings a lot with his skillset but not at the price he will command and not with the same stupid decisions he still makes. The big part of basketball that we don't talk about here is BBIQ. We don't talk about it here because none of our players have it. Not even Horf. We're the dumbest winning team in the game. Even dumber than OKC. So a less talented smart team can beat us in a 7 game set. See Celtics vs. Hawks. We thought that the low BBIQ started and ended with Joe... and the tendency to play Iso Joe. Well, in Actuality, it's Smoove. What makes Smoove's game so dumb is that he plays with something to prove. That's a whole lot different than playing to win.

Smoove wants to be THE MAN. However, he tries to hard to do it on his terms. So he takes what we are and make us a finesse team. Name 1 finesse team that has ever won a championship or got close?

You got to be able to rebound.

You got to be able to call a play to get a score.

You got to be able to get to the foul line.

These are things that we can't do. NOt that we're not equipped to do it, we're just to dumb to try.

SO we win games against lesser competition and remain a little above .500. However, when those smart teams show up, they beat the crap out of us and we wonder why are we so off and on. We're not off and on... we are what they thought we were. DUMB.

They know we'll take an outside shot rather than go inside. They know that we'll give Josh shots all day instead of making Josh play in the low post or at least move to the basket. They know that we're the same dog that we were last year. Only difference is that this year, we don't have the GOAT FLOAT.

[Wretch]

One thing that I would like to see disappear from our conversations is the "people only look at his negatives" argument. At this point, how can we sit here and just overlook that part of the game? I want you guys to think about something... The stat is TURNOVERS. Josh's bad shots do what for us exactly? In what way are these shots beneficial to us?

They're not. When he throws up all these shots, what he's really doing is giving away possessions. How we DON'T understand that after all this time is beyond me. But what I see here in the 2nd half of this game alone is 12 potential turnovers (jumpers that he has no business taking). We average just under 15 turnovers a game as a team.

I have been saying this for years too, but Josh Smith is the last guy that I want with the ball. Teague on penetration or jumper, Al on a post up or Jumper, JJ on anything, Marvin on the outside, Crawford...all of those were more viable options to Josh Smith trying to PROVE that he can score the ball.

Personally, I don't want to replace him. I just want to stop feeding him the ball so much. If we had the right coaching from day one, they would have recognized the Josh Smith had the potential to be an incredible player. Phenomenal in a way that no other player has ever been. THAT player would have led us to greatness, but he disappeared about 4 years ago.

[benhillboy]

When he throws up all these shots, what he's really doing is giving away possessions.

True. One of th marks of a great jumpshooter is even off a miss, his touch should be soft and accurate enough around the rim to give teammates a chance to offensive rebound ie Sweet Lou. Josh's misses usually end up on the top of the board, out of bounds, or slingshot off the goal into the hands of an opposing player igniting a fast break. Players are taught "we have to score off every Josh miss" because it's the easiest 4 point swing in the league. I have long given up on him growing a brain. I just take the good with the bad and don't question it. We have all known the three facts about him for some time: 1. Bricks and doorknobs look at him and say "damn he's dumb"2. He can win a game for us wire to wire3. He can lose a game for us in about 3 or 4 minutes.I've long stopped feeling any type of way about him. Just hope he stuffs the stat sheet in a win and always turn my head when he starts his infamous knee bend for one of the worst jumpers the NBA has ever seen. It's quite therapuetic. It's fun hearing the crowd reaction and the sound of the clank or complete silence from the ball sailing out of bounds. Sometimes Rathburn just sits there silently, and Nique's pussyfooting "that's not quite the shot the Hawks wanted". Really Nique? My homeboy from Detroit always says he'd love Josh on his team. I always tell him I'd do Josh for Drummond so fast it'll f&@k up the space-time continuum. Until then, I save a lot of head and heartache by being absolutely neutral and indifferent to his great games as well as his ship-sinking ones.

[Wretch]

True. One of th marks of a great jumpshooter is even off a miss, his touch should be soft and accurate enough around the rim to give teammates a chance to offensive rebound ie Sweet Lou. Josh's misses usually end up on the top of the board, out of bounds, or slingshot off the goal into the hands of an opposing player igniting a fast break. Players are taught "we have to score off every Josh miss" because it's the easiest 4 point swing in the league. I have long given up on him growing a brain. I just take the good with the bad and don't question it. We have all known the three facts about him for some time:1. Bricks and doorknobs look at him and say "damn he's dumb"2. He can win a game for us wire to wire3. He can lose a game for us in about 3 or 4 minutes.I've long stopped feeling any type of way about him. Just hope he stuffs the stat sheet in a win and always turn my head when he starts his infamous knee bend for one of the worst jumpers the NBA has ever seen. It's quite therapuetic. It's fun hearing the crowd reaction and the sound of the clank or complete silence from the ball sailing out of bounds. Sometimes Rathburn just sits there silently, and Nique's pussyfooting "that's not quite the shot the Hawks wanted". Really Nique?My homeboy from Detroit always says he'd love Josh on his team. I always tell him I'd do Josh for Drummond so fast it'll f&@k up the space-time continuum. Until then, I save a lot of head and heartache by being absolutely neutral and indifferent to his great games as well as his ship-sinking ones.

I think I'm going to dip out of the Josh conversation too. It's just too frustrating to watch him waste his potential like this. To be honest, I've done that with the whole team. It's why i don't get so down on these kinds of losses. I have just lowered my expectations and I'm waiting to see when/if we decide to make some changes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not down on the players (not even Josh), I've just taken a very hard "wait and see" attitude before I get excited about anything.

My fear is that we're still trying to maintain this playoff viability with the intent of courting another unproven, 2nd tier player (ala Joe Johnson). Trying to build a "anybody can step up" kind of team...without elite talent...

We will see.

[Diesel]

I think I'm going to dip out of the Josh conversation too. It's just too frustrating to watch him waste his potential like this. To be honest, I've done that with the whole team. It's why i don't get so down on these kinds of losses. I have just lowered my expectations and I'm waiting to see when/if we decide to make some changes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not down on the players (not even Josh), I've just taken a very hard "wait and see" attitude before I get excited about anything.

My fear is that we're still trying to maintain this playoff viability with the intent of courting another unproven, 2nd tier player (ala Joe Johnson). Trying to build a "anybody can step up" kind of team...without elite talent...

We will see.

Unfortunately... that's it. We just want a collection of average to above average players who first don't have all the skillsets needed to win and secondly have no star power. It's the curse of BK. He built a team with the same skillset and look... and got one guy who was a little different (Joe).. and tried to live off that by adding flawed talent year after year. It's no wonder that we saw great swings when we added different skillsets to our core of 1.... Guys like Bibby and Crawford had career years while here. The reason why is because they wasn't the same skillset. So now we've gotten rid of Joe and we have a team full of guys who for the most part are the same. Mediocre and dumb. The interesting thing is that we're so consistently mediocre that we can beat beatable teams. When we play those smart teams however, our flaws come out again. Ferry started right... rebuild everything. He just didn't get good vALUE FOR HIS TRADES.

[Kimsey]

The op is what Diesel was/is to Duck. Both Al and Josh had horrible games. They need another player to take pressure off of them mainly scoring among other duties.

Their defensive, rebounding, and scoring responsibilities to make up for Korver, Lou, and Jeff would cause major problems for any frontcourt duo much less an already small one. Lou is the teams best offensive player but the team wins mostly when either Josh or Al is the top scorer.

[Jody23]

I think I'm going to dip out of the Josh conversation too. It's just too frustrating to watch him waste his potential like this. To be honest, I've done that with the whole team. It's why i don't get so down on these kinds of losses. I have just lowered my expectations and I'm waiting to see when/if we decide to make some changes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not down on the players (not even Josh), I've just taken a very hard "wait and see" attitude before I get excited about anything. My fear is that we're still trying to maintain this playoff viability with the intent of courting another unproven, 2nd tier player (ala Joe Johnson). Trying to build a "anybody can step up" kind of team...without elite talent... We will see.

I don't think maintaining status quo mediocrity is what we're trying to do. If it were, Joe and Marvin would still be here. If Ferry doesn't think Joe is worth the max, then you know his standards for a player that he deems worthy is higher. Sure, nothing is guaranteed, but I have to say I think Ferry is not following the pattern of small thinking that has characterized former Hawk GMs.

[Wretch]

I don't think maintaining status quo mediocrity is what we're trying to do. If it were, Joe and Marvin would still be here. If Ferry doesn't think Joe is worth the max, then you know his standards for a player that he deems worthy is higher. Sure, nothing is guaranteed, but I have to say I think Ferry is not following the pattern of small thinking that has characterized former Hawk GMs.

I hope not. To be honest, no GM sets out to build a mediocre team. They pick who they think are the best players, they sign big contracts to players they think are worth it, and they hire coaches who they think can get the job done. The goal is never to build a mediocre or competitive team. The goal is always to build a winner.

What separates the good from the great GM's though (and their respective organizations), is how far they are willing to go and their refusal to settle. Luck plays a part and teams have to gamble, but the Hawks have a history of neither.

Babcock built a winner but stopped short of building a contender. He was stuck with a 2nd round team, but did not have the vision or the foresight to really do anything about it. Capped out, instead of shaking the core, he tried to fill in the gaps with the C-List likes of Laphonso Ellis, Ty Corbin, Willie Burton, Hendu, and Snake. So determined to maintain competitiveness, he threw away draft picks and made some ridiculous trades.

By the time he finished shooting himself in the face, he had thrown away quite a few draft picks and made a fool of our franchise. Billy Knight came in with the right idea - erase his bullshit and start over. He too wanted to build a winner and his idea had some teeth to it...in theory. An all-interchangeable team that could play multiple positions. Would have been awesome if Marvin had actually been James Worthy with a jumpshot. Problem is, he wasn't and BK's self-centered, mad scientist experiment blew up in his face.

Sund inherited that mess, but I have no opinion of his tenure. To be honest, the ASG was in full blown foolishness mode and Sund was nothing more than a puppet. Rather than break up the core, the ASG dragged that floundering mediocre team through the mud...repeating Babcock's refusal to let the team slide or change.

Enter Danny Ferry...

I'm not going to sit here and praise the man only a half season into his tenure. YES he unloaded Joe's contract, but that's a 3-way intersection. Give Ferry the credit for pushing it through. Give the ASG credit for allowing it to happen (though they're probably happy not to be paying all that money for the same results). Give Brooklyn some credit for helping us out. Give Ferry credit for dumping Marvin and maintaining a competitive roster...but be careful with that.

...a max contract to Josh and keeping him as the focus of our offense coupled with a bad contract or a mediocre signing for big cash (y'know, like Larry Hughes in Cleveland) and we're looking at extending our "competitive" streak. Guys will be cursing the Josh Smith contract the way they cursed Joe. We still won't have a dominant team. Fans, the media, and free agents will still ignore us. The Heat, Knicks, and Bulls will have homecourt when they show up in our house...and nothing will have changed.

Do I KNOW that Ferry will corner us into a team that peaks at the 2nd round? No. Do I know that his ideas for a team are any more viable than Babcock's, the ASG's, or BK? No, because right now, all we know is that Smoove is still a Hawk and does what he wants on offense, we have made moves to stay competitive, and LD is still coach. All that and I don't know what he plans to do with half of this roster in the off season.

Ferry talked about building something from the ground up. I'm not condemning him (that would be idiotic this early), I'm not doubting him, and I'm not jumping for joy at his brilliance. I'm waiting patiently to see if he (and this organization) is serious about winning. If they are, then something has to be done to get this team out of the middle of the pack and changing my signature - no excuses.

[Kimsey]

Boston just held Anthony to 6-25 shooting. In his previous 7 games he was on a tear avg. 33.5 on 49% shooting. The Celtics are full strength and Bradley is one of the better all around defenders around. Gotta give them credit, the Hawks have to play a full 4 quarters to beat them.