So I was wrong about something (bandwagon fans)

[Wretch]

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=400278891

PORTLAND, Ore. -- It didn't matter that it was the Rose Garden. The "M-V-P!" chant for Kobe Bryant was loud and clear.

Was reading SportCenter CC'd at the gym today and noticed they were talking about this during the recap. While I'm sure the bandwagon asshattery is kicked up a notch in ATL, it looks like a universal thing - especially considering we were debating this over what happened in Indiana a few weeks back.

So, I've got to concede this to the peeps who put this off onto the globalization & player marketing (to attract broad/casual viewership). I thought we were unique in that our arena turned into homecourt for visitors. It probably doesn't get as bad as it does here (when pretty much ANY marketable player/team shows up), but I'm starting to believe the notion that the "powers that be" have engineered a product that crosses fan boundaries and that this effect is intentional.

I'm wondering if it was always like this. I know that in the 90's, we had issues with bandwagon Knicks/Bulls fans and the Pacer fans bused themselves down here for a playoff series. But, has that universal appeal always been so strong with the game? Or is this something that David Stern engineered when he molded the game to highlight the superstars.

...and if that's the case, and we're breaking down boundaries here (specifically those of the losing/middle of the pack franchises), I'm pretty disgusted. I guess the logic is, "Hey, they're not coming out to see their own team...might as well market their seats to the casual/bandwagon fans."

Don't know enough about NBA politics in this area to give a solid opinion on it, but if this is what the league wanted...then it's just wrong. Someone put up a thread the other day about what we'd like to see changed in the NBA. I'd really like to see the officiating completely removed from the league and controlled 100% by a 3rd party...and I'd like to see less of these "super teams," less promotion of the individual, and more team ball.

Alright...done rambling.

Thoughts?

[Guest]

Kobe got MVP chants in Boston before the big 3 when they sucked.

[Wretch]

That he did, I vaguely remember... I'm looking at this though and it's a Lakers team struggling to make the playoffs their cheering. Not a championship team (that I so adamantly argued is what will attract the bandwagon fan here).

[macdaddy]

I do think its the star driven league that Stern and espn have created. They've finally convinced people that teams don't matter. Its all about the personalities. It really is Basketball Entertainment. I think it started mainly with Jordan but maybe it existed with Magic, Bird, Russell, Chamberlain. I don't know. Certainly not to the extent that it did with Jordan and after.

I hate it but maybe some like it. So it doesn't really matter if the Lakers are winning. Kobe is a star, one of the best players ever, so there you go.

[Guest]

That he did, I vaguely remember... I'm looking at this though and it's a Lakers team struggling to make the playoffs their cheering. Not a championship team (that I so adamantly argued is what will attract the bandwagon fan here).

Kobe scoring 47 is what they were cheering and sad to say it's the Lakers - having a history of banners/rings/stars will do that.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

I'm really hoping Silver comes in next January and starts changing the culture of the NBA... The state of the NBA is just sad and is why it'll always be second to the NFL. Even baseball fans root for the teams over the players.

[Dnice]

Yeah, this can happen anywhere, even Portland, where they are the only team and had about 20 years of going to the postseason, despite falling off the last couple of years.

[Wretch]

Just to be clear here...

They don't cheer for Al Horford or CP3 like that. Obviously, winning makes you appealing (marketable). So, I don't think anybody doubts the effect of Kobe's career on his following. But, if we're talking about accolades and accomplishments...they don't cheer for Tim Duncan like that and they didn't cheer for Karl Malone like that.

Moreover, I am a Lakers fan. I started watching them BEFORE the Hawks back in 1983/84. Even so, you're not going to catch me at Phillips with a Lakers Jersey on. That's because I'm a fan of my local team (even though I'm not from Atlanta).

These fans that are showing up, are not LA transplants to Portland, Indiana, or Boston (where the Lakers of all teams should be hated) and they don't just support Kobe. They are quick to tell you that they are Kobe or Melo or LeBron fans, but support that whole team because that player is there (I know, because I listen to and argue with these kinds of bandwagon fans all day at work).

So what is so different between them and me?

This is what I was getting at. It wouldn't have mattered if Kobe scored 47, 37, or 17...they came to see him and his team and the NBA has done it's work to draw that kind of fan to the arena. They're spending time, money, and filling up stadiums because these players have been marketed to them.

Jordan scored 60 points, making Bird look stupid on his home court, were those fans cheering for him? Did they cheer for Magic when he came to Boston? Did they cheer for Zeke and Dumars when they came to Chicago? Did they cheer for MJ when he went out to Phoenix? I wasn't there, and I was young watching it on TV, but I don't recall it being that crazy back in the day.

Today's fans that come out to see Kobe don't care about basketball. They come out to see a name brand. Today's NBA name brand is being marketed around individuals over the team. It's rules have also been adjusted to accentuate the superstars over the team. It's good for the NBA, because the non-elite teams that have trouble filling seats will see bandwagon fans showing up to cheer on the flavor of the month.

Before I saw those comments from the Pacer players about being booed on their homecourt (while winning and having a winning season), and before I saw that this morning, I would have disagreed with those people blaming much of this on marketing and changes to the game. Now I see it though...and I hope it changes going forward. It's good for business, but crappy for the integrity of the game IMO.

[Randy]

I was at the Braves/Cubs game the other day. Lots of loud cheering for the Cubs as well. Face it - there are a lot of fans who see no reason to identify with the local team. And should they? I kind of lost interest in the Braves when they traded away (or didn't re-sign) my favorite players. Player movement has a big downside. The team owners expect fans to cheer for whoever is in their uniform.

Having said that, the Lakers/Celtics and Bulls fans are extremely annoying as are the Cubs fans in baseball.

[Guest]

This generation has access to see ALL teams playing on TV now compared to back in the day, even college teams. You learned everything about the home team from newspaper - now access is readily available on the internet.

Maybe a guy may go to a certain college, root for a player and follow him to NBA and that now becomes his team. It's just like high school and the popular kids - people prefer associating with what's popular.

I went to the Kings/Hawks game a while back and a family of 7 sat in front of me with 5 kids 3 boys 2 girls. All the boys had on Jerseys, the oldest one about 14 was wearing a Kings Jimmer Ferdette jersey, the other 2 boys ages about 8 and 10 were repping the Hawks sporting Al's #15 - the entire family was cheering for the Hawks except the 14 year old. I thought to myself - wth -how did that happen that he is wearing that jersey. By the middle of the 4th quarter with the Hawks in control he didn't have the jersey on anymore.

It had to be he became a fan during Jimmer's college days when ESPN was hyping him up cause he hasn't done squat in the NBA.

Just my 2 cents - I have stopped trying to figure out fans who bale on teams, or switch teams or root for teams just because - that's a them problem.

I can say this - it's a helluva lot more fun going to games and going home when they win. Losing sucks.

Go Hawks!!!!!

[Dnice]

I was wondering if WGN plays a big part for the Cubs, similar to TBS back in the day. I know there can't be that many transplants from Illinois & Indiana around, i could understand if they had been winning some titles.

[AHF]

I was at the Braves/Cubs game the other day. Lots of loud cheering for the Cubs as well. Face it - there are a lot of fans who see no reason to identify with the local team. And should they? I kind of lost interest in the Braves when they traded away (or didn't re-sign) my favorite players. Player movement has a big downside. The team owners expect fans to cheer for whoever is in their uniform.

Having said that, the Lakers/Celtics and Bulls fans are extremely annoying as are the Cubs fans in baseball.

Yes they should. The Braves have a strong winning tradition over the last 20 years, have won a championship in that time, and have acquired some very exciting young talent. There is no reason not to root for the Braves if you are local to the Atlanta area and not already committed to some other team.

[Guest]

Probably, when we first got cable it coincided with me starting to watch basketball - WGN was one of the channels I saw consistently with the Jordan Bulls - so seeing the team all the time I rooted for them at that time.

I was wondering if WGN plays a big part for the Cubs, similar to TBS back in the day. I know there can't be that many transplants from Illinois & Indiana around, i could understand if they had been winning some titles.

[DJlaysitup]

I'm really hoping Silver comes in next January and starts changing the culture of the NBA... The state of the NBA is just sad and is why it'll always be second to the NFL. Even baseball fans root for the teams over the players.

Agreed PSS...I can't be too bitter about the Hawks - what with all the silly stuff BK did and we are still a playoff team for a good many years. The fans that I would imagine are grinding their teeth are the Indiana Pacers fans. Their management built a real contender the right way and "Whoosh"...LeBron and whatshisname take their talents to Miami and all the sudden they pass them like a Ferrari going by a Chevy. Tack onto that Miami gets the best "Tail end Charlies" who will play for Vetmin to get a ring.

Oh and PS - the NFL is the big dog..then comes MLB...then the NBA...and their is considerable distance between them in each case.

Borderline NBA fans that I talk to are beginning to think the deal is rigged.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Wretch, the difference is this . . .

If Portland were in the mix to make the playoffs, instead of being 11 games under .500 and on an 8 game losing streak ( at the time they played the Lakers ), those KOBE MVP chants would've been drown out by the plethora of Blazer fans in the building, rooting for their team to make the playoffs and beat the Lakers.

The "bandwagon effect" may exist in some form in every arena/city, but in ATL, it doesn't matter if you're playing at a high level at the time . . . the "bandwagonners" still outnumber and out "volume" the die-hards.

That's the difference.

And even when the Lakers went to Indy to play the Pacers, even the die hard Pacer fans agreed with George calling out the "bangwagon" fans and/or Pacer fans who sold their tickets just to make a buck.

The Braves are the hottest thing going in baseball right now. The Upton brothers have lived up to the hype, and exceeded it early in the season. Let's see if the city gets behind them, if they keep winning at a ridiculous rate . . . or if "fans" will use the "well let's wait and see what they'll do in the playoffs", before they support the team like a real good team should be supported.

Edited April 12, 2013 by northcyde

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Until ATL proves that it can be a big time city from an attendance and enthusiasm perspective, they'll always be looked at as a bad sports town, when fans don't even support decent teams like they should support them.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

Until ATL proves that it can be a big time city from an attendance and enthusiasm perspective, they'll always be looked at as a bad sports town, when fans don't even support decent teams like they should support them.

And until the Hawks give the fans something to cheer for, the seats will remain empty. No one in Atlanta wants to buy tickets to see a team that will 99% for sure will be bounced out of the playoffs in the 1st or 2nd round. That series vs. the Celtics proves that the fans are here, but being a perennial stepping stone for teams like the Celtics, Bulls, and Heat & constantly losing key games doesn't keep them around. It's simple economics... You got to supply a superior product to get the fans to want to buy in...

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

Just to be clear here...

They don't cheer for Al Horford or CP3 like that. Obviously, winning makes you appealing (marketable). So, I don't think anybody doubts the effect of Kobe's career on his following. But, if we're talking about accolades and accomplishments...they don't cheer for Tim Duncan like that and they didn't cheer for Karl Malone like that.

Moreover, I am a Lakers fan. I started watching them BEFORE the Hawks back in 1983/84. Even so, you're not going to catch me at Phillips with a Lakers Jersey on. That's because I'm a fan of my local team (even though I'm not from Atlanta).

These fans that are showing up, are not LA transplants to Portland, Indiana, or Boston (where the Lakers of all teams should be hated) and they don't just support Kobe. They are quick to tell you that they are Kobe or Melo or LeBron fans, but support that whole team because that player is there (I know, because I listen to and argue with these kinds of bandwagon fans all day at work).

So what is so different between them and me?

This is what I was getting at. It wouldn't have mattered if Kobe scored 47, 37, or 17...they came to see him and his team and the NBA has done it's work to draw that kind of fan to the arena. They're spending time, money, and filling up stadiums because these players have been marketed to them.

Jordan scored 60 points, making Bird look stupid on his home court, were those fans cheering for him? Did they cheer for Magic when he came to Boston? Did they cheer for Zeke and Dumars when they came to Chicago? Did they cheer for MJ when he went out to Phoenix? I wasn't there, and I was young watching it on TV, but I don't recall it being that crazy back in the day.

Today's fans that come out to see Kobe don't care about basketball. They come out to see a name brand. Today's NBA name brand is being marketed around individuals over the team. It's rules have also been adjusted to accentuate the superstars over the team. It's good for the NBA, because the non-elite teams that have trouble filling seats will see bandwagon fans showing up to cheer on the flavor of the month.

Before I saw those comments from the Pacer players about being booed on their homecourt (while winning and having a winning season), and before I saw that this morning, I would have disagreed with those people blaming much of this on marketing and changes to the game. Now I see it though...and I hope it changes going forward. It's good for business, but crappy for the integrity of the game IMO.

Their is definitely a line between a bandwagon fan and respecting a legend. I don't particularly like Tiger Woods, but I appreciate and respect what he has done in and for the PGA. Same goes for Kobe, as for other greats of sports such as Gretzky, Jordan, Montana, and Ruth. The problem lies in that fans tend to marvel and follow the players from a young age and continue that into adulthood. I have always felt that Michael Jordan did more harm to the NBA than he ever did good. That's really when this culture change in the league began and why their are Celtics and Lakers fans, followed by LeBron, Kobe, and Carmelo fans. It's because the Celtics and Lakers were wildly successful before the Jordan era began and the fans stuck with those teams. Then Jordan happened and people followed him like he was John Lennon or somebody. Little wanted to be like Mike. No one wanted to be like Bird or like Clyde. Jordan made guys like Allen Iverson and Russel Westbrook believe that a 6'0" PG could become 30 ppg scorers. Also, in the NBA, the players are a lot more accessible and marketable than any other sport, so fans are exposed to these guys on a daily basis. Unlike football players, NBA players don't wear helmets so fans can see them and also they NBA have shoes deals which is against conduct in the NFL. Although the NHL regularly sells out games, they don't have the support of the national markets nor the support of the country for the sport. MLB has a similar problem in that the younger generations find baseball boring and the diehards are from the Pete Rose days. Little kids see LeBron signing $90 million shoe deals and getting $20 million contracts. Also, if LeBron was walking down the street in Philly/Miami/Atlanta/LA/Chicago, people will recognize him. Outside of Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, who has that type of brand recognition? Andrian Peterson is the best RB in football right now and Calvin Johnson is the best WR, but how many people would recognize them at the Denny's in Atlanta? How many people would recognize Derek Jeter in Detroit or Sidney Crosby in LA? When people think about the Packers, the first thing that pops in their head is the "G" emblem, not Aaron Rodgers. When people think about the Lakers, they think Kobe and the showtime era.The players in the NBA just has a certain aurora that the other leagues just can't compete with and this is why fans casual or not support the players over the teams.

[macdaddy]

I was at the Braves/Cubs game the other day. Lots of loud cheering for the Cubs as well. Face it - there are a lot of fans who see no reason to identify with the local team. And should they? I kind of lost interest in the Braves when they traded away (or didn't re-sign) my favorite players. Player movement has a big downside. The team owners expect fans to cheer for whoever is in their uniform.

Having said that, the Lakers/Celtics and Bulls fans are extremely annoying as are the Cubs fans in baseball.

I can tell you that there were a lot of Cubs fans at Braves games in the 80s too. I think WGN plays a role in that as does Wrigley and Harry Cary. The Cubs managed to create a great brand and people bought into it. Still I can't understand Atlantans, and i know a few, who don't want to cheer for the Braves. Despite a lot of post season failings they have had a run of excellence almost unmatched in recent baseball. Sure there have been a lot of big let downs but compare their last 22 years to the Cubs and its a disgrace there are still so many cub 'fans' at Turner field.

[Wretch]

Their is definitely a line between a bandwagon fan and respecting a legend. I don't particularly like Tiger Woods, but I appreciate and respect what he has done in and for the PGA. Same goes for Kobe, as for other greats of sports such as Gretzky, Jordan, Montana, and Ruth. The problem lies in that fans tend to marvel and follow the players from a young age and continue that into adulthood. I have always felt that Michael Jordan did more harm to the NBA than he ever did good. That's really when this culture change in the league began and why their are Celtics and Lakers fans, followed by LeBron, Kobe, and Carmelo fans. It's because the Celtics and Lakers were wildly successful before the Jordan era began and the fans stuck with those teams. Then Jordan happened and people followed him like he was John Lennon or somebody. Little wanted to be like Mike. No one wanted to be like Bird or like Clyde. Jordan made guys like Allen Iverson and Russel Westbrook believe that a 6'0" PG could become 30 ppg scorers. Also, in the NBA, the players are a lot more accessible and marketable than any other sport, so fans are exposed to these guys on a daily basis. Unlike football players, NBA players don't wear helmets so fans can see them and also they NBA have shoes deals which is against conduct in the NFL. Although the NHL regularly sells out games, they don't have the support of the national markets nor the support of the country for the sport. MLB has a similar problem in that the younger generations find baseball boring and the diehards are from the Pete Rose days. Little kids see LeBron signing $90 million shoe deals and getting $20 million contracts. Also, if LeBron was walking down the street in Philly/Miami/Atlanta/LA/Chicago, people will recognize him. Outside of Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, who has that type of brand recognition? Andrian Peterson is the best RB in football right now and Calvin Johnson is the best WR, but how many people would recognize them at the Denny's in Atlanta? How many people would recognize Derek Jeter in Detroit or Sidney Crosby in LA? When people think about the Packers, the first thing that pops in their head is the "G" emblem, not Aaron Rodgers. When people think about the Lakers, they think Kobe and the showtime era.The players in the NBA just has a certain aurora that the other leagues just can't compete with and this is why fans casual or not support the players over the teams.

That is some very sound reasoning. I agree with almost all of it. I TOTALLY believe that there was a major shift around the Jordan era. I would just add that the league (with the help of its partner media) did it's best to mold the product around it. And I hope going forward, it looks to start promoting the teams and local support better. Honestly, player marketing can take care of itself without the league's help.

I don't know how much stock I put into the winning culture breeding loyal fans outside of their markets though. I think it's partly responsible for SOME of those bandwagon fans. However, most people I know from back in the day that were Lakers/Bulls/Pistons fans don't even have anything to say about those clubs now - even the older cats, like my older brothers that put me onto the Lakers. And I was a ************HUGE************ Lakers fan as a kid, but you won't catch me rooting for them at Phillips. I also knew (and still know) plenty of Bulls/Lakers/Celtics fans from back then. While they respect those clubs and what they did back in the day, they've got no love for those clubs now. Most of those guys are all Heat and OKC fans today (I do know one other fan who is loyal to the Lakers).

It's funny watching the bandwagon fans at my job. They honestly don't care about basketball and know very little about it. These are the cats that are showing up in packs to support other teams on our home court.