Elitest is as Elitest does. From Duke to Atlanta.

[AHF]

When is the last Duke team without multiple HS All-Americans?That UK/Duke classic was a good example of a huge advantage in talent/pedigree for Duke. How many times a year is Duke at a meaningful talent deficit? Two, maybe? Duke football is in that situation every game.Is this bad? %^*%# no! The advantage of having an elite college coach is getting super recruits. How do you think John Wooden, Coach K, Calipari, Pitino, Nick Saban, Urban Meyer, etc. win so many games year after year? Hire the right college coach and he can make your program. Pro coaches don't have the same impact because they can't recruit their players like they can in college.

[NJHAWK]

Pro coaches don't have the same impact because they can't recruit their players like they can in college.

I guess Phil Jackson didnt recruit but he sure made sure he walked into some sweet situations.

Edited July 23, 2013 by NJHAWK

[NJHAWK]

If it were truly a Duke thing, then the person who helped harness this awareness was Coach Mike Krzyzewski (Coach K). Recently, in reading a bit of a fall out from Coach K and Jalen Rose, I ran across this quote, "We were very successful against them and, to be quite frank with you, we recruited Chris Webber. I didn't recruit Jalen Rose because we had Grant Hill and I'm happy with that. We didn't look at the other, Juwan Howard [because] we knew he wasn't going to come to Duke. The other two kids we didn't think were the caliber that could play as well as Thomas Hill and Brian Davis and Billy McCaffery. They're good kids. They were good kids. They had a heck of a run but, they didn't leave anything, they didn't establish anything there. The guys that I had established something that Jay Williams continued to do 10 years later -- the standards of what it meant to be a Duke basketball player." This statement of caliber and standards of being a Duke player is exactly why Duke players are considered elitist among the public.

This is whats been missing from college basketball. The great established teams. Everybody is one and done now. Why even bother playing that 1 season in college? Im not a Duke fan because of the elite garbage that Diesel talks about but I admire that many of their players stay all 4 years. Imagine if that KY team with Anthony Davis did that. Perhaps they could have won 4 titles or gone undefeated and been legends instead of a flash in the pan. I love the ncaa tourney but wish the players were more established like the coaches. I doubt the golden era of ncaa bball will ever come close to being matched because of this.

[AHF]

A lot of Duke's top prospect jump early as well, though, so it is more balance than principle. Irving, Rivers, Maggette, Brand, Jay Williams, etc. left after their Fr or So seasons as a few examples.

[Admin]

I don't think Duke has far superior physical talent on his teams, otherwise those guys would go on to be big time NBA players more so than going on to he busts or bench players. I'd say that Kentucky has a lot more physically talented players, but Duke players are generally more intelligent players.

[AHF]

I don't think Duke has far superior physical talent on his teams, otherwise those guys would go on to be big time NBA players more so than going on to he busts or bench players. I'd say that Kentucky has a lot more physically talented players, but Duke players are generally more intelligent players.

If Coach K could get Anthony Davis, Brevin Knight, etc. he would jump over the table to sign their hands and sign.I will find you four years where Duke has 4+ McDonalds All-Americans for ever year you can find where the team has 2 or fewer.If you are comparing UK and Duke (two programs with elite recruiting), you have to look at the year. The game you brought up involved 4 McDonald's All-Americans for Duke (Laettner, Hill, Hurley, Parks and several who signed and left the program like Billy McCaffrey) and zero for Kentucky.

[AHF]

Wasn't Mashburn on that team?

Yes but he wasn't a McD.

[NJHAWK]

I don't think Duke has far superior physical talent on his teams, otherwise those guys would go on to be big time NBA players more so than going on to he busts or bench players. I'd say that Kentucky has a lot more physically talented players, but Duke players are generally more intelligent players.

Usually if they call you a "heady" player its because your not that talented. lol I think its just a myth in both cases. KY has had plenty of intelligent players and Duke has had they're share of low bball IQ players.

[Admin]

Yes but he wasn't a McD.

He was a McDowell's All-Star wasn't he?

[Admin]

If Coach K could get Anthony Davis, Brevin Knight, etc. he would jump over the table to sign their hands and sign.I will find you four years where Duke has 4+ McDonalds All-Americans for ever year you can find where the team has 2 or fewer.If you are comparing UK and Duke (two programs with elite recruiting), you have to look at the year. The game you brought up involved 4 McDonald's All-Americans for Duke (Laettner, Hill, Hurley, Parks and several who signed and left the program like Billy McCaffrey) and zero for Kentucky.

I'm not saying that Duke hasn't had really good talent, but by and large they are restricted to talent with the qualifications to be able to get into Duke and maintain a certain GPA. You don't have nearly as tough of restrictions in the majority of Div I basketball. And I'd bet that you find the success rate in the NBA for 1st round players from Duke would be a lot lower than it is for most of the other major universities.

[AHF]

I'm not saying that Duke hasn't had really good talent, but by and large they are restricted to talent with the qualifications to be able to get into Duke and maintain a certain GPA. You don't have nearly as tough of restrictions in the majority of Div I basketball. And I'd bet that you find the success rate in the NBA for 1st round players from Duke would be a lot lower than it is for most of the other major universities.

Still don't buy it. They have elite talent. UK won its last championship before Calipari without a lottery pick. Duke players underachieving but going high in the lottery doesn't mean non-elite college talent. Wayne Turner was an elite college player but not someone the NBA wanted. The NBA wanted Dunleavy, Ferry, Langdon, the Plumlees, etc. There are probably only a handful of teams with more first round NBA picks than Duke since 1990.

[Admin]

That's the point, their players get drastically over drafted because of their success at Duke.

[AHF]

That's the point, their players get drastically over drafted because of their success at Duke.

Their talent is elite. You can keep going on with non-washouts, Reddick, Duhon, McRoberts, Battier, Deng, Randolph, Henderson, Dahntay Jones, A Lang, Parks, etc.Again, I doubt many schools can match their profile first and second you don't need to be a great NBA player to be a stud college player. Some UK college impact players Turner, Jeff Sheppard, Travis Ford, Cliff Hawkins, Sean Woods, Ed Davender, etc. and plenty of guys who were relative busts in the NBA (Kyle Macy, Kenny Walker, Wallace Jones, Cotton Nash, Jack Givens, Bob Burrow - to name a half dozen of the top 25 players in UK history who busted in the pro's).It is magnified at Duke because of the attention given to their program and the contrast to the NBA success of their closest rivals at UNC.

[jy23]

We breed role players, there are a few exceptions like Irving or Hill (when he was healthy) but by and large we breed role players. We're nothing like the UNCs or UCONNs of the world. But just like I said about UK the same goes for those schools, the bounce back is a lot more dramatic for those programs than duke bc of the players coach k chooses to recruit, guys stay longer and keep the program afloat until the next crop of guys come in. Call it what u want but the shit works

[Admin]

Their talent is elite. You can keep going on with non-washouts, Reddick, Duhon, McRoberts, Battier, Deng, Randolph, Henderson, Dahntay Jones, A Lang, Parks, etc.Again, I doubt many schools can match their profile first and second you don't need to be a great NBA player to be a stud college player. Some UK college impact players Turner, Jeff Sheppard, Travis Ford, Cliff Hawkins, Sean Woods, Ed Davender, etc. and plenty of guys who were relative busts in the NBA (Kyle Macy, Kenny Walker, Wallace Jones, Cotton Nash, Jack Givens, Bob Burrow - to name a half dozen of the top 25 players in UK history who busted in the pro's).It is magnified at Duke because of the attention given to their program and the contrast to the NBA success of their closest rivals at UNC.

This may help...

Duke vs Kentucky Comparison.xlsx.zip

NBA players from Duke (37)

http://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Atlantic-Coast-Conference/1/Duke/31/NBA_Players

NBA players from Kentucky (48)

http://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Southeastern-Conference/8/Kentucky/258/NBA_Players

Averages (games played)

Duke - 356

Kentucky - 267

Averages (ppg)

Duke - 7.94

Kentucky - 7.1

Averages (rpg)

Duke - 3.32

Kentucky - 3.4

Averages (apg)

Duke - 1.81

Kentucky - 1.59

*Averages are a bit skewed as Duke has 7 players that have been drafted since 2010 while Kentucky has had 15. The numbers would be better looked at in a few years if we stopped at the 2013 draft but right now a lot of these 1st and 2nd year players are bringing the Kentucky #'s down.

[KB21]

Duke has also had the benefit of alot of their star players hanging around all 4 years and basically having a team of men vs boys. I understand its great that these kids love the program, coach, stay in school and graduate but its also a competitve advantage.

That is by design. Duke typically recruits to get one guy that will likely be an early entry candidate, and they then recruit system guys who will hang around for all four years.

So, while they will get the Kyrie Irvings and Jabari Parkers on campus, they also get the Kyle Singlers, Mason Plumlees, and Jon Scheyers/JJ Reddicks that end up staying for 3-4 years.

[KB21]

We breed role players, there are a few exceptions like Irving or Hill (when he was healthy) but by and large we breed role players. We're nothing like the UNCs or UCONNs of the world. But just like I said about UK the same goes for those schools, the bounce back is a lot more dramatic for those programs than duke bc of the players coach k chooses to recruit, guys stay longer and keep the program afloat until the next crop of guys come in. Call it what u want but the shit works

I agree with this. At Duke, you may be a star, but it is because you are playing your role within their system so well.

[KB21]

As to the title of the thread, I personally do not feel that Duke takes an elitist attitude towards their players relative to the rest of college basketball. Here is an article I found that is somewhat about this subject.

http://www.success.com/articles/1285-from-the-archives-the-coach-k-difference

For one thing, he uses many techniques that are key to achieving success in business (hence his popularity as a speaker). He emphasizes team building and team play, brand awareness, goal-setting, resource management, and building and sustaining a quality product. But he often puts an unusual spin on these mainstays.

Krzyzewski tells executives that the key to Duke’s basketball success is the hard work, mental toughness, and “heart” demonstrated by his players. Having said that, he describes the rather eclectic business strategies he uses to run his unusual company.

Krzyzewski, described by The Sporting News as “what’s right about sports,” says, for example, that he’s big on values that can make every team great on and off the court: communication, trust, collective responsibility, caring, and pride. “I like to think of each as a separate finger on the fist,” he says. “Any individual finger is important. But all of them together are unbeatable.”

“This isn’t all about ‘I love you,’ and ‘Let’s hold hands and skip,’” he says in his latest book (with Donald Phillips), Leading With the Heart: Coach K’s Successful Strategies for Basketball, Business, and Life(Warner Books, 200; paperback, March 2001), “It’s also about ‘Get your rear in gear,’ “What the hell are you doing?’ and ‘Why aren’t you in class?’”

“Discipline is not such a bad thing,” he says. “It’s simply doing what you’re supposed to do as well as you can when you’re supposed to do it.”

“Too many rules get in the way of leadership and box you in,” Krzyzewski says. “I think people sometimes set rules to keep from making decisions.”

And how’s this for a radical departure from the bottom-line focus: “I never set number goals,” he proclaims. “Never.” Goals that focus on playing together as a team are more important and can position your team to win every game, he says.

Can anyone notice the parallels between the way Coach K runs things at Duke and the way Pop runs things with the Spurs?

In Leading With the Heart, he says he recruits only players who are “coachable” and who want to be a part of a team. He also sets different goals each year, basing them on the personalities and abilities of each new group.

He promotes team interdependence in a variety of ways. For example, early each season he gives players a card with all their teammates’ and coaches’ home phone numbers and encourages them to stay in touch with and help one another. (That emphasis is obvious on the court, according to ESPN analyst d*ck Vitale. “If there is one word to sum up Duke on offense, it’s unselfish,” he said after a Duke win in December.)

Krzyzewski’s recruiting philosophies also reflect his strong feelings about the importance of teamwork. While he has recruited his share of “stars,” he says he doesn’t bring them in based on technical merit alone. “It’s equally important to consider how they might work as part of team,” he says. And once he has recruited a good group, he works to earn their respect by being “caring, communicative, and honest,” Krzyzewski says. “Your team needs to instantly believe what you say” he tells business leaders. “That’s why you have to embrace the hell out of personal responsibility.”

And there you have what Danny Ferry probably pitched to Dwight Howard this off season -- the idea of being part of the Hawks basketball team and part of what they want to build, and this is also likely the reason that neither Dwight nor Josh are in Atlanta at this point. Right now, Dwight isn't about being part of something. He's about something helping him at this point. I also think Danny gave Josh a chance this season to show that he is a coachable player and is willing to listen to his coaches and play within the team concept and within the system. This is one reason why Paul Millsap is in Atlanta and Josh is in Detroit. That is just my opinion though.

Now, this was a dated write up, but you can see what was in play back then within the "Duke Philosophy" is in play today. That is a program that is built up on hard work, determination, teamwork, communication, and selflessness. There are a lot of similarities with the way Coach K runs his program and Pops runs the Spurs. In Danny Ferry, the Hawks have a general manager who comes from both philosophies.

[Plainview1981]

It's not impossible for this to work. We can talk about the Spurs, but they have Duncan and that's that.

The real example is the Pistons because they did it without the superstar player. It Ferry continues to try and avoid the lottery, and no superstar is drawn via FA or trade, then you're left hoping the Hawks can do what the 2004 Pistons did. They beat a superstar team with a hard working team.

So, it can be done, but its not the most likely way of winning the championship.

[AHF]

This may help... Duke vs Kentucky Comparison.xlsx.zip NBA players from Duke (37)http://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Atlantic-Coast-Conference/1/Duke/31/NBA_Players NBA players from Kentucky (48)http://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Southeastern-Conference/8/Kentucky/258/NBA_Players Averages (games played)Duke - 356Kentucky - 267 Averages (ppg)Duke - 7.94Kentucky - 7.1 Averages (rpg)Duke - 3.32Kentucky - 3.4 Averages (apg)Duke - 1.81Kentucky - 1.59 *Averages are a bit skewed as Duke has 7 players that have been drafted since 2010 while Kentucky has had 15. The numbers would be better looked at in a few years if we stopped at the 2013 draft but right now a lot of these 1st and 2nd year players are bringing the Kentucky #'s down.

Those look just like I would have expected. Two school with elite recruiting that plant high numbers of players in the NBA. Prior to the Calipari explosion it was 33 to 30 which is in the same range. How many schools exceed Duke!s 37 NBA players? Is it even 5 out of the >100 Div 1 programs? As above, I also don't get the focus on the NBA. Are Duke's recruiting classes not near the top of the rankings year after year and littered with HS All-Americans?