NFL QB top ten...

[benhillboy]

Dol, you see all those missed targets by Brady last night? The one at 13:30 in the first quarter when his receiver had 5 yards of separation near the sideline was aggregious, then he spazzes out on the sideline when he threw the ball at his receivers feet in the endzone. Ive never heard of that receiver, but he seems to be a burner and will have a tough time this season hooking up consistently downfield. It's crazy how Mayock (who I actually love) and all the other Brady slurpers blame receivers for his miscues on throws nowhere near his receivers when those same throws would be pinpoint if thrown by Manning or Brees. Diesel said it best and I don't know why people love to disregard it: he isn't a downfield passer, so he's a system QB. He excels at everything the position entails except the most important skill: actually passing the ball! And I've seen him play about 30-40 times. I'm not pulling stuff out the air. If it ain't those little slants or inside out intermediate patterns, I wouldn't want to play with Brady as a WR. I want to hear one analyst actuall call him out for being average at best 20 yards plus, because that's exactly what he is. We can agree to disagree, just a little playful difference of analysis. I understand you see Brady more than I do. I see Drew Brees more than you. And let me tell you, I'm watching the better pure passer by a signifigant margin.Brees' and Manning's career completion percentage are both over 65, Brady is at 63.6. For as many years as they all have played, that's a significant margin. If you look at passer rating (not the lame ESPN derived QB rating), on passes attempted between 21-40 yards last season, somehow Peyton amassed an unbelievable 149.5. Brees was at 80.75. Brady, 65. Im pretty sure those numbers are consistent with the majority of their careers, with Peyton probably around 100 though. Brady isn't in Brees' class, and I'm embarrassed to put his name in the same sentence as The Sheriff.

Edited September 13, 2013 by benhillboy

[Admin]

You aren't seriously going to criticize Brady for last night when his WRs had more drops than any game in Brady's entire career, by a long shot, are you? And those weren't misses by Brady they were incorrectly run routes and timing that is missing between these rookies and him. I mean come on far and away his #1 target is Julian freaking Edelman, who had 21 total catches last year and 15 in last nights game alone. That one missed TD the WR should have run in and kept the DB to his outside and that's what Brady expected and threw the ball there and the WR turned it outside and that's why Brady was pissed. Then he had drop after drop after drop when he hit those guys in the hands. I've never seen such a pathetic display of actually catching the ball. As Cris Carter says, if it hits you in the hands then you've got to catch it.

Manning on the other hand has arguably the most impressive group of receiving targets in the league so it's not exactly fair to compare him and Brady this year.

[jy23]

Wilson does not have harvin actually....and he didn't have him last year either. Kearse....you're kidding right? You wouldn't know who he was if he hadn'tade the only decent play in the game last week. Get outta here with that garbage. And who in the heck is Harper? As far as numbers go Brandon lafell matches both Sidney rice and golden Tate. So you have Steve smith Greg Olsen and lafell compared to rice, Tate, and baldwin. Lynch compared to the trio of running backs in Carolina and defenses that aren't far apart at all....especially this yer with this additions along carolinas front and the maturation of killer Luke who was defensive rookie of the year last year and yet one team is a bottom dweller and the other is looked at as one of the top teams in the league. I honestly think you've run out of excuses for this guy....some guys just get it done when it matters and some don't. What's next diesel?

[Admin]

Wilson does not have harvin actually....and he didn't have him last year either. Kearse....you're kidding right? You wouldn't know who he was if he hadn'tade the only decent play in the game last week. Get outta here with that garbage. And who in the heck is Harper? As far as numbers go Brandon lafell matches both Sidney rice and golden Tate. So you have Steve smith Greg Olsen and lafell compared to rice, Tate, and baldwin. Lynch compared to the trio of running backs in Carolina and defenses that aren't far apart at all....especially this yer with this additions along carolinas front and the maturation of killer Luke who was defensive rookie of the year last year and yet one team is a bottom dweller and the other is looked at as one of the top teams in the league. I honestly think you've run out of excuses for this guy....some guys just get it done when it matters and some don't. What's next diesel?

On paper Seattle has the better group, but you're right about him not having Harvin and who knows how many games he'll actually play this year. But I'd probably still take Sidney Rice over Steve Smith simply because of size. So it's either:

Marshawn Lynch / Sidney Rice / Golden Tate / Zach Miller

or

DeAngelo Williams / Steve Smith / Brandon LaFell / Greg Olson

That's the depth charts according to both teams official sites. Add Harvin to that mix and I'd take Seattle, but without him it's a toss up.

[AHawks89]

ESPN and NFL both have Big Ben ranked 5. Your list is definitely out there. Not sure what you see on the field when you're watching football.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000237909/article/the-quarterback-index-ranking-the-starters-132

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9592180/nfl-quarterback-rankings-john-clayton-reveals-2013-hierarchy-part-1

I would go with:

Manning

Brady

Rodgers

Brees

Roethlisberger

Eli

Flaco

LuckRyan

Kaepernick

[EazyRoc]

Yeah there's lots of not great receivers going into or in the hall of fame... Who's the one playing dumb here and refusing to see that the Colts were far better with Arians last year than they are without him. The Cards are far better with Arians this year than they were without him. Arians won coach of the year and he wasn't even the head coach. But you refuse to acknowledge that. You pump up Carson Palmer like he's something special but he hasn't been a good QB in 5 years or so. But sure, go ahead and give him the credit for the Cardinals success. What's your reasoning for why the Colts offense was better with Arians than without?? Is it the great Raiders defense that held them down? You know, the team who had the 3rd pick in the draft this year. I mean being held to 90 yards less than your season last year, at home, to a team that won 4 games last year. Pretty damn sad. Oh and I don't need to use 1 game to justify the Browns line being poor. They gave up the 8th highest amount of QB hits last year at 83, interestingly tied with the Falcons, and I never hear you guys saying the Falcons have a great line. Again, what HAS Luck proven? That he can take a team with the weakest schedule in the league, a team who only 1 year prior had been in the Super Bowl, and get them 11 wins and an early playoff exit? Wow, impressive! Now I know you're somehow going to try and spin this to say what has Miami or Tannehill done so I'll save you the trouble and say I am fully aware that Miami was 7-9 last year because of their kicking blowing 3 wins with misses at the ends of games and OT and I'm fully aware Tannehill had an average at best season last year for a team who was pitifully built on offense. And finally I'll say again that I think Luck is the best young QB in football. But we'll see who comes out on top when Miami goes into Indy and wipes up the Colts this weekend.

The Colts are so much worse and the Cardinals are so much better all after one game ? Are you kidding ? That makes NO sense if you're serious. Also, Carson Palmer threw for 4000 yards last season without a Fitzgerald type receiver. He's much better than Skelton, Lindley, or Kolb. So yes, I think pairing a good veteran QBwith an elite receiver has more to do with the Cardinals success than a new offensive scheme. You know why Arians won coach of the year ? Because the "talented" Colts were supposed to be bottom feeders last season, but Andrew Luck exceeded expectations and did a lot more to help his team win games than Arians did. You can't have it both ways. You can't claim that the Colts were so talented, but at the same time say they were only good because of Arians. For the record, how many rookie QBs have proven more than throwing for 4000 yards, making the pro bowl, and taking his team to the playoffs ?

[EazyRoc]

Dol, you see all those missed targets by Brady last night? The one at 13:30 in the first quarter when his receiver had 5 yards of separation near the sideline was aggregious, then he spazzes out on the sideline when he threw the ball at his receivers feet in the endzone. Ive never heard of that receiver, but he seems to be a burner and will have a tough time this season hooking up consistently downfield. It's crazy how Mayock (who I actually love) and all the other Brady slurpers blame receivers for his miscues on throws nowhere near his receivers when those same throws would be pinpoint if thrown by Manning or Brees. Diesel said it best and I don't know why people love to disregard it: he isn't a downfield passer, so he's a system QB. He excels at everything the position entails except the most important skill: actually passing the ball! And I've seen him play about 30-40 times. I'm not pulling stuff out the air. If it ain't those little slants or inside out intermediate patterns, I wouldn't want to play with Brady as a WR. I want to hear one analyst actuall call him out for being average at best 20 yards plus, because that's exactly what he is. We can agree to disagree, just a little playful difference of analysis. I understand you see Brady more than I do. I see Drew Brees more than you. And let me tell you, I'm watching the better pure passer by a signifigant margin.Brees' and Manning's career completion percentage are both over 65, Brady is at 63.6. For as many years as they all have played, that's a significant margin. If you look at passer rating (not the lame ESPN derived QB rating), on passes attempted between 21-40 yards last season, somehow Peyton amassed an unbelievable 149.5. Brees was at 80.75. Brady, 65. Im pretty sure those numbers are consistent with the majority of their careers, with Peyton probably around 100 though. Brady isn't in Brees' class, and I'm embarrassed to put his name in the same sentence as The Sheriff.

I agree that Brady has to be in a certain system to truly excel, but he is still a great QB who typically makes any receiver he plays with more productive than they normally would. With that being said, he's no Manning or Brees. Brees should really go down as the next best QB of this generation behind Manning. The guy has THE most accurate arm I have ever seen and he has great presence in the pocket. I just wished he kept his ass in San Diego.

[benhillboy]

You aren't seriously going to criticize Brady for last night when his WRs had more drops than any game in Brady's entire career, by a long shot, are you? And those weren't misses by Brady they were incorrectly run routes and timing that is missing between these rookies and him. I mean come on far and away his #1 target is Julian freaking Edelman, who had 21 total catches last year and 15 in last nights game alone. That one missed TD the WR should have run in and kept the DB to his outside and that's what Brady expected and threw the ball there and the WR turned it outside and that's why Brady was pissed. Then he had drop after drop after drop when he hit those guys in the hands. I've never seen such a pathetic display of actually catching the ball. As Cris Carter says, if it hits you in the hands then you've got to catch it. Manning on the other hand has arguably the most impressive group of receiving targets in the league so it's not exactly fair to compare him and Brady this year.

Fair enough I guess. Those 21-40 numbers were from last year, though. I love Edelman as a football player, Decker and Thomas are very good, not great. I never cared for Harrison and his size, but Wayne was/ is a stud IMO. To Brady's credit he made Branch look like an actual receiver, anybody can throw to Moss, but Lloyd, a deep specialist, was awful with Brady, and I don't think that's coincidental. You say the receivers were at fault, that's fine. Nobody ever knows for sure except the coaches and principles involved in the play. But isn't a QB as honored and exhaulted as Brady supposed to make sure his green receivers know every assignment in practice and film were he's a well-known perfectionist? The Patriots don't make excuses no matter how convienient and valid they may be, so you shouldn't either. I will always view Wilfork. their healthy editions of their O Line, and The Hoody of course as the main cogs in their dynasty. They were there when they won 11 games with (Stephen A. Smith disgusted voice) Maaatt Caaaassell. Edited September 13, 2013 by benhillboy

[Admin]

The Colts are so much worse and the Cardinals are so much better all after one game ? Are you kidding ? That makes NO sense if you're serious. Also, Carson Palmer threw for 4000 yards last season without a Fitzgerald type receiver. He's much better than Skelton, Lindley, or Kolb. So yes, I think pairing a good veteran QBwith an elite receiver has more to do with the Cardinals success than a new offensive scheme. You know why Arians won coach of the year ? Because the "talented" Colts were supposed to be bottom feeders last season, but Andrew Luck exceeded expectations and did a lot more to help his team win games than Arians did. You can't have it both ways. You can't claim that the Colts were so talented, but at the same time say they were only good because of Arians. For the record, how many rookie QBs have proven more than throwing for 4000 yards, making the pro bowl, and taking his team to the playoffs ?

It would be great if you could at least try and not misquote me. So let me try and break this down for you and you can come back to it at the end of the season and see I'm right.

> = better

>> = much better

2012

Luck >> Tannehill

Colts talent on offense >> Dolphins talent on offense

Colts with Arians coaching (9-2) >> Colts with Pagano coaching (2-3) - I wonder why the Colts were night and day better with Arians coaching than without him. Hmm that just makes no sense considering you're attributing their success to Luck and he QB'd them for every single game.

2013

Luck > Tannehill

Colts talent on offense > Dolphins talent on offense

Other statements

[*]Raiders will win MORE games this year without Carson Palmer than they did with him last year. BTW Palmer had some damned good weapons to throw to last year. He had 5 guys who had at least 20 catches and averaged double-digit yards per catch. He had 2 more that were almost there at 9.4 and 9.5. Luck had 5 guys that met that criteria and just for a local comparison, Matt Ryan only had 4 receivers meet that criteria.

[*]Indy will win FEWER games in 2013 than they did in 2012 and Luck will have a worse season, even though he's got better weapons this year than he did last year.

[*]I never, ever, claimed that the Colts were ONLY good because of Arians. I just said they were MUCH better with him than they were without him. So far this year their offense looks a lot worse as well, even with better talent. At the end of the year you'll see their offense will be ranked lower than it was last year.

[*]Prove something = actually do something more than take a team with the easiest schedule in the league and sneak into the playoffs as a wild card and then get booted immediately. See Wilson, Russell as an example of a rookie QB who proved something.

[Admin]

Fair enough I guess. Those 21-40 numbers were from last year, though. I love Edelman as a football player, Decker and Thomas are very good, not great. I never cared for Harrison and his size, but Wayne was/ is a stud IMO. To Brady's credit he made Branch look like an actual receiver, anybody can throw to Moss, but Lloyd, a deep specialist, was awful with Brady, and I don't think that's coincidental. You say the receivers were at fault, that's fine. Nobody ever knows for sure except the coaches and principles involved in the play. But isn't a QB as honored and exhaulted as Brady supposed to make sure his green receivers know every assignment in practice and film were he's a well-known perfectionist? The Patriots don't make excuses no matter how convienient and valid they may be, so you shouldn't either. I will always view Wilfork. their healthy editions of their O Line, and The Hoody of course as the main cogs in their dynasty. They were there when they won 11 games with (Stephen A. Smith disgusted voice) Maaatt Caaaassell.

Individually the only Broncos WR who I'd say is great is Thomas, or at least he's darn close to it, but their receiving group as a collection is great. Decker, Thomas, Welker and this freak Julius Thomas is a very good collection of receivers.

Lloyd isn't even in the league anymore and that's not because of Brady, it's because he was vastly overrated.

By the end of the season Brady will have his timing down with his guys and have them running the routes they should, but you gotta realize that these aren't blue chip types of receivers that he's got there so it's going to take some time. And from what I've heard they have well over 1,000 plays on offense and they run easily the fastest pace in the league as well so it's going to take some time. They've also gone up against 2 pretty good defenses so far in the Jets and Bills so once they get a chance to take on a cupcake defense I expect they'll put up big numbers. I mean they averaged what 35 points per game last year, for an entire season. That's just ridiculous! So I'll just wrap this up and say I've probably seen Brady in at least 100 games and last nights performance by his receivers was by far the worst I've ever seen and I am fully confident that they'll get on track... although I'd gladly see that not happen.

[Diesel]

Seattle does have better overall receivers but what I want to know is what's changed in Carolina since Cams rookie season? Has his receiving group changed since then? Not that I remember. His running game may be better now than it was but its at least the same. So have defenses figured Cam out or has he simply been discovered to be overrated?

The sophomore slump is nothing new. It means that other teams plan better for a QB than they did his rookie year. Even with that, his ypg went from 253 to 241... not a great fall. His completion percentage went from 60 to 57.7. His INTs went from 17 to 12... His rushing yards improved. You're quibbling over slight changes in his personal performance. His number differences are very similar to Matty Ice's first and Second year and Drew Brees' 2nd and 3rd Year.

[Admin]

The sophomore slump is nothing new. It means that other teams plan better for a QB than they did his rookie year. Even with that, his ypg went from 253 to 241... not a great fall. His completion percentage went from 60 to 57.7. His INTs went from 17 to 12... His rushing yards improved. You're quibbling over slight changes in his personal performance. His number differences are very similar to Matty Ice's first and Second year and Drew Brees' 2nd and 3rd Year.

And 125 yards to start this year. Sure it's against a good defense, but come on that's a horribly low number. Is his sophomore slump continuing?

[Diesel]

And 125 yards to start this year. Sure it's against a good defense, but come on that's a horribly low number. Is his sophomore slump continuing?

One of the best defenses (balance) in history and you're still quibbling.

Name a defense in the past 20 years that you would want more than Seattle's?

[Admin]

Oh man you are radically overrating Seattle's defense. They aren't even as good as San Fran this year let alone historically good. Funny stuff though D.

[jy23]

Dude he is being extra ridiculous...historically great defense? Lol ok D. Cam looked bad, just accept it. Is he talented? Yes. Is he what your tryin to make him out to be? Absolutely not

[EazyRoc]

<p>

It would be great if you could at least try and not misquote me. So let me try and break this down for you and you can come back to it at the end of the season and see I'm right.

> = better

>> = much better

2012

Luck >> Tannehill

Colts talent on offense >> Dolphins talent on offense

Colts with Arians coaching (9-2) >> Colts with Pagano coaching (2-3) - I wonder why the Colts were night and day better with Arians coaching than without him. Hmm that just makes no sense considering you're attributing their success to Luck and he QB'd them for every single game.

2013

Luck > Tannehill

Colts talent on offense > Dolphins talent on offense

Other statements

[*]Raiders will win MORE games this year without Carson Palmer than they did with him last year. BTW Palmer had some damned good weapons to throw to last year. He had 5 guys who had at least 20 catches and averaged double-digit yards per catch. He had 2 more that were almost there at 9.4 and 9.5. Luck had 5 guys that met that criteria and just for a local comparison, Matt Ryan only had 4 receivers meet that criteria.

[*]Indy will win FEWER games in 2013 than they did in 2012 and Luck will have a worse season, even though he's got better weapons this year than he did last year.

[*]I never, ever, claimed that the Colts were ONLY good because of Arians. I just said they were MUCH better with him than they were without him. So far this year their offense looks a lot worse as well, even with better talent. At the end of the year you'll see their offense will be ranked lower than it was last year.

[*]Prove something = actually do something more than take a team with the easiest schedule in the league and sneak into the playoffs as a wild card and then get booted immediately. See Wilson, Russell as an example of a rookie QB who proved something.

Wilson's team is much more stacked than Lucks and he's your standard bearer ? Maybe if Luck had All Pro teammates he would have proven much more. Other than Lucks debut game, he played pretty well under Pagano. For the record, the Seahawks and Colts played a comparable schedule. The Raiders may very well be better without Palmer, but not because they replaced him with a better QB.

[EazyRoc]

One of the best defenses (balance) in history and you're still quibbling. Name a defense in the past 20 years that you would want more than Seattle's?

00 Ravens ? 03 Bucs ? Last years Cardinals ? 05 Panthers ?

[benhillboy]

I just got on pro football reference and might miss the fight exploring it. By far the coolest feature is the career comparison lists they come up with.Just for fun, Dol, you plug in Brady's career peers you get Drew Brees, Gannon, Cunningham, Warner, Staughbach, McNabb, Garcia, Brunell, Trent Green, and Burt Jones. He had a run of 3 years as Brett Farve surprisingly. Paste The Sheriff in there and you get Unitas, Montana, Marino, Ken Anderson, Steve Young, Dan Fouts, Brett Favre, Elway, Staughbach, and Kelly. His latest edition is Farvian, his last 3 years in Indy Unitan, and his Golden Years, for his standard anyway, was Marino-like. Who was he a year before that? Matty Ice. We coming!

Edited September 14, 2013 by benhillboy

[jy23]

00 Ravens ? 03 Bucs ? Last years Cardinals ? 05 Panthers ?

There really was no need I respond to that question but that's just a few.

[EazyRoc]

There really was no need I respond to that question but that's just a few.

You're right. I left at least another half dozen out.