Real Talk Time #3.

[Diesel]

My real talk time subject....

Is Horf a better PF than Sap? If we could only have one, who should the Hawks take into the future? AND WHY?

Edited December 12, 2013 by Dolfan23
Added poll

[Admin]

I've actually been thinking about posting this same topic with a poll for a couple of days now based on Millsap's play. I honestly think I'd move forward with Millsap at this point if we could get something good in return for Al. It would have to be a legit play making 2 way SG/SF for me to do it though since he's young, home grown and on a terrific contract for his value.

[NBASupes]

One star topic. Al is superior to Milsap. You keep bullshiting and playing Al at center which he's outmatched and of course he will struggle at times. This is on Ferry. He needs to flip Milsap sooner than later for a true starting caliber center.

Edited December 12, 2013 by nbasupes40retired

[ATLHawks3]

Both are really good players, but whoever of the 2 have the best trade value is the one I'd trade.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

Depends who would be playing at center. Sap and Horf work because Horf is a mid-range shooter and Sap thrives inside (although he has proven he can hit a jumpshot too). If we get someone like Asik, Noah, or Drummond, then keep Horf. If we get someone like Bargnani or Dirk, then keep Sap. Someone has to clean up offensive rebounds and having two guys around the hoop just gets crowded. Having two guys outside gets nothing done. I like Sap... I like Horf. Wish we could keep both and have Sap be our 7th man, but I don't think he'd go for that. That might just push Sap's "team first" attitude. Honestly, I'm all for just keeping them both and seeing what the 2014 draft & free agency brings us and then evaluate the situation then.

[Diesel]

Depends who would be playing at center. Sap and Horf work because Horf is a mid-range shooter and Sap thrives inside (although he has proven he can hit a jumpshot too). If we get someone like Asik, Noah, or Drummond, then keep Horf. If we get someone like Bargnani or Dirk, then keep Sap. Someone has to clean up offensive rebounds and having two guys around the hoop just gets crowded. Having two guys outside gets nothing done. I like Sap... I like Horf. Wish we could keep both and have Sap be our 7th man, but I don't think he'd go for that. That might just push Sap's "team first" attitude. Honestly, I'm all for just keeping them both and seeing what the 2014 draft & free agency brings us and then evaluate the situation then.

I think Sap is a better stretch PF than Horf would be. Sap actually has range and is smart with his shots. I also think that Sap is a tiger in the post... I think Horf would probably have an advantage high post, but I don't see him as being a dominant PF because of his lack of speed.

The Center we get in return has some importance too but not that much.

[rd79]

Depends who would be playing at center. Sap and Horf work because Horf is a mid-range shooter and Sap thrives inside (although he has proven he can hit a jumpshot too). If we get someone like Asik, Noah, or Drummond, then keep Horf. If we get someone like Bargnani or Dirk, then keep Sap. Someone has to clean up offensive rebounds and having two guys around the hoop just gets crowded. Having two guys outside gets nothing done. I like Sap... I like Horf. Wish we could keep both and have Sap be our 7th man, but I don't think he'd go for that. That might just push Sap's "team first" attitude. Honestly, I'm all for just keeping them both and seeing what the 2014 draft & free agency brings us and then evaluate the situation then.

if it comes to dirk (what will not happen, IF he will ever play for another NBA team than Dallas, it has to be a real contender), you would have to trade both, cause you still need a true rim protector at center. dirk is a 4, too. hasn't ever been a defender and will not become that anymore

[BrazilianHawk]

BOTH. .

[macdaddy]

I think Sap is a better stretch PF than Horf would be. Sap actually has range and is smart with his shots. I also think that Sap is a tiger in the post... I think Horf would probably have an advantage high post, but I don't see him as being a dominant PF because of his lack of speed.

The Center we get in return has some importance too but not that much.

You've touched on what may be the reality of the situation which is that the reason we have never put Al at the PF is that the coaches don't believe he would be effective there. His best offensive weapon is his mid range jumper which is easier to get open for against centers who are cheating off him.

If we having a starting frontcourt of Asik and Horford then we don't have much offensive power inside.

Just a theory. Can't say for certain since it's never really happened.

[Diesel]

You've touched on what may be the reality of the situation which is that the reason we have never put Al at the PF is that the coaches don't believe he would be effective there. His best offensive weapon is his mid range jumper which is easier to get open for against centers who are cheating off him.

If we having a starting frontcourt of Asik and Horford then we don't have much offensive power inside.

Just a theory. Can't say for certain since it's never really happened.

I think the advantage that Asik brings is defense.... rebounding... and scoring in the post. Not a lot of scoring in the post.. but enough to allow Horf to be high post to midrange trying to score. There have been several mentions about Horf/Karl Malone during his stint here. I don't see it but could be if we ever developed a PNR style. Let's not be fooled, while Horf may not be as fast as most PFs.. he will be stronger than all of them. The question is could he convert that to points without developing a Post game?

[GameTime]

Depends who would be playing at center. Sap and Horf work because Horf is a mid-range shooter and Sap thrives inside (although he has proven he can hit a jumpshot too). If we get someone like Asik, Noah, or Drummond, then keep Horf. If we get someone like Bargnani or Dirk, then keep Sap. Someone has to clean up offensive rebounds and having two guys around the hoop just gets crowded. Having two guys outside gets nothing done. I like Sap... I like Horf. Wish we could keep both and have Sap be our 7th man, but I don't think he'd go for that. That might just push Sap's "team first" attitude. Honestly, I'm all for just keeping them both and seeing what the 2014 draft & free agency brings us and then evaluate the situation then.

1. Why are the Hawks so good on the defensive boards but so poor on the offensive boards?

Andrew Han, (@andrewthehan): In a word: Budenholzer. In more words: did you know the Hawks’ coach, Mike Budenholzer, was a long time assistant for the San Antonio Spurs? A team that has been top three in defensive rebounding and bottom third in offensive rebounding the past two seasons? In less words: limiting opponent possessions and setting up on defense is important.

Seerat Sohi, (@DamianTrillard): This one’s easy. The Hawks are 29th in the league in offensive rebounding—behind only the Miami Heat— because they don’t bother crashing the offensive glass. It’s no coincidence that Hawks head coach Mike Budenholzer’s former squad, the San Antonio Spurs, are the league’s third-worst rebounding team; the Spurs value transition defense over second chance opportunities and now, so do the Hawks.

[Admin]

1. Why are the Hawks so good on the defensive boards but so poor on the offensive boards?

Andrew Han, (@andrewthehan): In a word: Budenholzer. In more words: did you know the Hawks’ coach, Mike Budenholzer, was a long time assistant for the San Antonio Spurs? A team that has been top three in defensive rebounding and bottom third in offensive rebounding the past two seasons? In less words: limiting opponent possessions and setting up on defense is important.

Seerat Sohi, (@DamianTrillard): This one’s easy. The Hawks are 29th in the league in offensive rebounding—behind only the Miami Heat— because they don’t bother crashing the offensive glass. It’s no coincidence that Hawks head coach Mike Budenholzer’s former squad, the San Antonio Spurs, are the league’s third-worst rebounding team; the Spurs value transition defense over second chance opportunities and now, so do the Hawks.

Good post! I didn't realize that the Spurs and Heat were so poor on the offensive glass. Makes me feel a lot better and gives some factual evidence as to why Al's rebounding isn't higher.

[coachx]

One star topic. Al is superior to Milsap. You keep bullshiting and playing Al at center which he's outmatched and of course he will struggle at times. This is on Ferry. He needs to flip Milsap sooner than later for a true starting caliber center.

Easier said then done.

[macdaddy]

So just for kicks i looked at Eastern Conference Centers. I checked at Yahoo but different sites have them listed differently.

They have two categories for centers: Center or Forward / Center

In the eastern conference they list 6 pure centers total (not just starting):

Gortat, HIbbert, valenc...(toronto), faverani, mahinmi, and nazr

Now there are a few in the FC category that we'd all be happy to put at center next to Al but really just a few:

Noah, hawes, varejo

The west has more centers which could be why they dominate the east but the point being that in the east there is probably less than a handful of starting calibre centers.