In ten years, this franchise will likely be in the same place they are today

[Jody23]

Bud and Ferry both have and are doing alot of positive things. I don't think anyone can deny that. But to many knowledgeable Hawks' fans, the fustration is with the direction of the organization. Yet again, they want the fans to buy into this idea that a champion can be built from the middle of the pack. The problem is that has yet to be done in NBA history and the fans know it. When it comes to an ownership group that has a reputation for operating on the cheap and selling Kobe Bryant jersey's IN PHILLIPS ARENA...the fans definitely have a right to be highly skeptical about ANYTHING coming from them.

[ATLnightwing]

I miss the Joe Johnson and Jamal Crawford years...

Al Horford and Teague need a change of scenery for sure. I like them both but we aren't getting anywhere with them.

[HawkItus]

A decade is long time. Most of these players won't even be here by then. How can you make such a long term forecast?

[HawkItus]

Your 2003-2004 Atlanta Hawks

Record: 28-54, Finished 7th in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results) Coach: Terry Stotts (28-54)

PTS/G: 92.8 (15th of 29) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 97.5 (23rd of 29)SRS: -5.00 (26th of 29) ▪ Pace: 90.8 (14th of 29)Off Rtg: 101.0 (23rd of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 106.1 (25th of 29) Expected W-L: 28-54 (26th of 29)

[Vol4ever]

Jody23 and kg01,

This wont let me copy your quotes, but you are 1,000% correct. I think this is where some like me have a problem that the organization. Bud is great, Ferry i'm not giving props until he pulls that trade for the players that put us in a position to compete for a championship.

Others on the board see Ferry as the only hope because we have been stuck in Middletown for so many years. They know the truth of the matter now but their holding out a miracle move or draft will be made.

I will say that there will be no deadline deal and in the summer very little will be done. Hope I'm dead wrong and have to eat crow, but that is the way I see it.

[turnermx]

I am done with this thread. Disagree totally and willing to eat my tie if i am wrong like the former douchebag Georgian president said and did.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MaceCase]

Bud and Ferry both have and are doing alot of positive things. I don't think anyone can deny that. But to many knowledgeable Hawks' fans, the fustration is with the direction of the organization. Yet again, they want the fans to buy into this idea that a champion can be built from the middle of the pack. The problem is that has yet to be done in NBA history and the fans know it. When it comes to an ownership group that has a reputation for operating on the cheap and selling Kobe Bryant jersey's IN PHILLIPS ARENA...the fans definitely have a right to be highly skeptical about ANYTHING coming from them.

Well many knowledgeable fans also recognize that this a contradictory statement rife with inaccuracies. You recognize that ownership has a cash flow problem yet are in support of them pursuing a path that would only exacerbate that. To put it simply, your ass most definitely isn't going to buy a ticket for a 13 win team because you barely do for a 40 win one. Even if the team eventually lands a star under that condition it does you nor the current ownership any good if they are playing in another city and state a la OKC or even the Nets.

As to your statement on the middle of the pack to championship, that is actually factually inaccurate. You are mixing up your arguments here. It's actually well proven that it's easier to go from middle of the pack to contender than bottom of the barrel to contender http://wagesofwins.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Untitled.png.%C2'> So no, history is actually against you on that one. You are muddling the draft pick or talent argument and overreaching from there.

Where I'm giving both Ferry and the ASG credit is that they are in a more flexible and stable condition now to improve upon the team. The performance of the product is the same as past seasons while being extremely cheaper. People can bitch and moan that the team couldn't get Dwight and Paul but at least they were in the position to do so. Flashback to just 4 years ago when Lebron, Bosh, Wade, etc. were all available yet the only positive prospects that the Hawks had that summer was retaining Joe on a max deal. That was a moment that you could say for certainty what the prospects of the team were going to be for the next decade but for right now only two players are even signed past 2 seasons from now and definitely not on anything close to a cap killer of a deal. ASG and Co. can still f*** shit up but you can't sit there and say you know for certain though.

[nathan2331]

What do you people want? Even if we tanked this season, it's not like we're gonna be winners next year. Contenders aren't built every day. In fact, I'd venture to say whoever turns out to be a superstar player from the lottery in this upcoming draft will NOT win a championship with the team that drafted them. Look now, Kyrie is already rumoured to want out of Cleveland. Someone like Anthony Davis, who may be able to lead a team to a ring in the future will NOT do so for the Pelicans. Why would I say something like this? Because it's hard to go back into the lottery and get it right a second time. Not to mention, the draft is the only option for most tanking, excuse me, rebuilding teams. As of recent history, Miami was the only team that was able to get a significant player(s) next to their superstar (Shaq and then Lebron and Bosh).Don't be surprised if rookies start taking the qualifying offer to force a move. Look around, their are so many ways to build a contending team, tanking/rebuilding is just one of them.

[AHF]

Your 2003-2004 Atlanta Hawks

Record: 28-54, Finished 7th in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)

Coach: Terry Stotts (28-54)

PTS/G: 92.8 (15th of 29) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 97.5 (23rd of 29)

SRS: -5.00 (26th of 29) ▪ Pace: 90.8 (14th of 29)

Off Rtg: 101.0 (23rd of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 106.1 (25th of 29)

Expected W-L: 28-54 (26th of 29)

Your 1993-1994 Atlanta Hawks

Record: 57-25, Finished 1st in NBA Central Division #1 Seed in Eastern Conference (Schedule and Results)

Coach: Lenny Wilkens (57-25)

PTS/G: 101.4 (11th of 27) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 96.2 (4th of 27)

SRS: 4.94 (4th of 27) ▪ Pace: 94.2 (19th of 27)

Off Rtg: 107.2 (12th of 27) ▪ Def Rtg: 101.7 (4th of 27)

Expected W-L: 56-26 (4th of 27)

10 years is a long time in the NBA.

[Wretch]

What do you people want? Even if we tanked this season, it's not like we're gonna be winners next year.

Contenders aren't built every day. In fact, I'd venture to say whoever turns out to be a superstar player from the lottery in this upcoming draft will NOT win a championship with the team that drafted them. Look now, Kyrie is already rumoured to want out of Cleveland. Someone like Anthony Davis, who may be able to lead a team to a ring in the future will NOT do so for the Pelicans. Why would I say something like this? Because it's hard to go back into the lottery and get it right a second time.

Not to mention, the draft is the only option for most tanking, excuse me, rebuilding teams. As of recent history, Miami was the only team that was able to get a significant player(s) next to their superstar (Shaq and then Lebron and Bosh).

Don't be surprised if rookies start taking the qualifying offer to force a move. Look around, their are so many ways to build a contending team, tanking/rebuilding is just one of them.

What you say is only half true. You are ignoring the fact that these players often become the principal in a much bigger deal. Just off the top of my head quite a few deals come to mind: Boston (Ray Allen), Clippers (Chris Paul), New Jersey (Deron Williams), Sacramento (Mike Bibby). I could probably list dozens if I wanted to scour through recent history.

The question though is how do you guys propose to get talent like that without the lottery? Historically these deals involve HOF/All-NBA/All Star talent for lottery picks/rights/players (or an even swap for the same). How exactly do we fit into that conversation with Millsap, Teague, Korver, & mid 1sts? Even if we could pull off a blockbuster (or trade into the lottery), we'd have to sacrifice depth, talent, and experience.

...and we'd end up in the lottery anyway - which is what you guys don't want to do. The only other avenue to elite talent is free agency. Which I would not bank on if I were Danny Ferry.

You guys need to get your minds around this: there are NOT multiple paths to building a contender. There is only ONE. By hook or crook, you have to get an ELITE PLAYER. Period. I am not saying that tanking is the only way to get an elite player, because it is not. However, I AM saying that having at least one elite talent is the key to becoming a title contender and if we are not using the lottery, then we are severely crippling our hopes of building a true winner here. It may not drag out over 10 years, but we will waste a lot of years dicking around waiting on an elite player to just fall into our hands.

[Sothron]

What you say is only half true. You are ignoring the fact that these players often become the principal in a much bigger deal. Just off the top of my head quite a few deals come to mind: Boston (Ray Allen), Clippers (Chris Paul), New Jersey (Deron Williams), Sacramento (Mike Bibby). I could probably list dozens if I wanted to scour through recent history.

The question though is how do you guys propose to get talent like that without the lottery? Historically these deals involve HOF/All-NBA/All Star talent for lottery picks/rights/players (or an even swap for the same). How exactly do we fit into that conversation with Millsap, Teague, Korver, & mid 1sts? Even if we could pull off a blockbuster (or trade into the lottery), we'd have to sacrifice depth, talent, and experience.

...and we'd end up in the lottery anyway - which is what you guys don't want to do. The only other avenue to elite talent is free agency. Which I would not bank on if I were Danny Ferry.

You guys need to get your minds around this: there are NOT multiple paths to building a contender. There is only ONE. By hook or crook, you have to get an ELITE PLAYER. Period. I am not saying that tanking is the only way to get an elite player, because it is not. However, I AM saying that having at least one elite talent is the key to becoming a title contender and if we are not using the lottery, then we are severely crippling our hopes of building a true winner here. It may not drag out over 10 years, but we will waste a lot of years dicking around waiting on an elite player to just fall into our hands.

Couldn't say it better myself. As I have said many times on this site there's only ever been two teams that won a title in the HISTORY of the NBA without a superstar.

[nathan2331]

Good point about the acquisition of talent. I still think though that the way the NBA is trending, it will be harder for small market/struggling teams to retain their stars. In the past off season we saw two players who many regard as elite hit free agency. We even managed to get in the door with one of them. Also, while I'd almost have to agree with you about this team not having enough assets to get a difference maker, Horford can be a valuable trade piece, if you want to use him. I just feel that in the near future, more and more stars will try to force moves to get to better situations (for both monetary and winning reasons).I still think we're not far from an Eastern Conference finals appearance though. If we sign Stephenson I think we're the second best team in the conference next season and I see no one coming up from under us. Not just because of how he would help us, but because of how the loss would affect the Pacers. Not the ideal way to contend, but that's my outlook of the situation.

[nathan2331]

Couldn't say it better myself. As I have said many times on this site there's only ever been two teams that won a title in the HISTORY of the NBA without a superstar.

Where did I say we wouldn't need a superstar? What I said was that I think they will change teams more often. Irving won't stay with the Cavs. Davis probably won't with the Pelicans. Sure I don't know this for a fact, but it's just my projection.

[Vol4ever]

We are all Hawks fans and have different opinions. Wretch has just posted the entire truth about this franchise. Supes is right about the ten year deal, if we keep trying to get players on the cheap we will continue spinning our wheels. You win with elite players, and mid level players you make the playoffs, get smacked in the mouth and head home.

I know this is considered negative by a few BUT imo the ownership group is the problem in Atlanta. It is known league wide and that is why big time free agents will not come here. The Hawks have the worst ownership group in the NBA.

[HawkItus]

Couldn't say it better myself. As I have said many times on this site there's only ever been two teams that won a title in the HISTORY of the NBA without a superstar.

And their have been countless "super stars" who haven't won a title. There are no promises no matter what you do. Hopefully we get the "super star" at some point and win the title. But, if it comes without one I'll take that too.

[HawkItus]

Yeah, but the whole point of what he's saying is that the likelihood of winning a title without one are essentially 0 with 2 exceptions.

That's in the history of the league. Why would we ever take steps to try to do it without a superstar? Nobody's saying it's automatic but I'd like to start the race with a headstart (i.e. superstar on roster) rather than 100 miles behind.

Not going to get on this wheel again, but read this article..http://grantland.com/features/orlando-magic-rebuilding-plan-superstar-search/ there are perils in the approach of tearing down for a star. Coming back from an implosion is tougher than you all give account for.

[Wretch]

Couldn't say it better myself. As I have said many times on this site there's only ever been two teams that won a title in the HISTORY of the NBA without a superstar.

Just contending would be enough for me...and you will be hard pressed to find contenders that did it without dipping their hand into the lottery some kind of way. Also, I really think people keep underselling the Pistons. The talent level on that team was and still is SEVERELY underrated. We forget just how good those guys were because of how they all sacrificed individual stats for the good of the team.

What really gets me though, is the fact that the 2000's Pistons were an anomaly and an absolute rarity, but because they didn't "tank", people think it's easier or more viable to build that way. Seriously, how many teams have we seen like that in the past 10 years? But that's the way to go...smh.

Good point about the acquisition of talent. I still think though that the way the NBA is trending, it will be harder for small market/struggling teams to retain their stars. In the past off season we saw two players who many regard as elite hit free agency. We even managed to get in the door with one of them. Also, while I'd almost have to agree with you about this team not having enough assets to get a difference maker, Horford can be a valuable trade piece, if you want to use him. I just feel that in the near future, more and more stars will try to force moves to get to better situations (for both monetary and winning reasons).

I still think we're not far from an Eastern Conference finals appearance though. If we sign Stephenson I think we're the second best team in the conference next season and I see no one coming up from under us. Not just because of how he would help us, but because of how the loss would affect the Pacers. Not the ideal way to contend, but that's my outlook of the situation.

I agree that the game is changing, but I think the big shift is towards this superstar team-up model (which the NBA is trying to do something about). I wouldn't say that the appeal of a big market has changed at all. That's always been the case. Moreover, I think the concerns over market size are overused and overblown anyway. In the first place, there are really only two market sizes: LA/NY and pretty much everybody else. Secondly, as long as you have a talented core and money, then you can get guys to sign/re-sign. Look at how popular the Clippers are these days. In just about every way, that club is the antithesis of our franchise.

All that being said, even if things trended towards more stars forcing their way to better/more desirable situations, Atlanta is not one of those desirable destinations. Unless we get a star player somehow, then we won't be a desirable destination the future.

Only the most hardened homer would suggest that the Hawks are closer to contention than any team in the middle of the pack - let alone put us on par with Miami/Indiana with any amount of tinkering. With Horford and a decent SF? Sure, I agree that we're a true 3 seed this season, but that's fools gold to me. I would never build a team to dominate THE MIDDLE of a weak conference. That's like bending over and waiting on a young/developing team to make a move and leapfrog us.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I'd be thrilled if the Hawks are still in Atlanta in ten years. I just hope they wise up like the Braves did and move to Cobb or Gwinett to get the attendance numbers up. lmao This is a different franchise, but great teams don't happen over night. We're still in transition here.

LOL . . a move to the suburbs will not increase Hawks attendance. You'll see that firsthand with the Braves. They'll post big numbers in their first 2 years. But if the Braves are the "same ol Braves", attendance will go back to what it was on Turner Field.

If the Hawks played their games at the current Gwinnett Center, they still wouldn't sell the games out. We couldn't even consistently sell out when the Hawks played at Georgia Tech ( when Philips was being built ).

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Well many knowledgeable fans also recognize that this a contradictory statement rife with inaccuracies. You recognize that ownership has a cash flow problem yet are in support of them pursuing a path that would only exacerbate that. To put it simply, your ass most definitely isn't going to buy a ticket for a 13 win team because you barely do for a 40 win one. Even if the team eventually lands a star under that condition it does you nor the current ownership any good if they are playing in another city and state a la OKC or even the Nets.

As to your statement on the middle of the pack to championship, that is actually factually inaccurate. You are mixing up your arguments here. It's actually well proven that it's easier to go from middle of the pack to contender than bottom of the barrel to contender So no, history is actually against you on that one. You are muddling the draft pick or talent argument and overreaching from there.

Where I'm giving both Ferry and the ASG credit is that they are in a more flexible and stable condition now to improve upon the team. The performance of the product is the same as past seasons while being extremely cheaper. People can bitch and moan that the team couldn't get Dwight and Paul but at least they were in the position to do so. Flashback to just 4 years ago when Lebron, Bosh, Wade, etc. were all available yet the only positive prospects that the Hawks had that summer was retaining Joe on a max deal. That was a moment that you could say for certainty what the prospects of the team were going to be for the next decade but for right now only two players are even signed past 2 seasons from now and definitely not on anything close to a cap killer of a deal. ASG and Co. can still f*** shit up but you can't sit there and say you know for certain though.

Mace . . . I don't know about that

Boston bottomed out, and drafted Bird

Lakers didn't bottom out, but acquired Magic via a trade . . and had acquired Kareem in a trade

Detroit bottomed out to get Isaiah

Chicago bottomed out to get Jordan

Houston was bad in consecutive years, and got Ralph Sampson and Hakeem Olajuwon

San Antonio was horrible both times in which they got David Robinson and Tim Duncan

Lakers used their appeal to land Shaq in free agency, and then put themselves in position to get Kobe

Detroit brought in a collection of good but not great journeymen type players + Larry Brown

Dallas traded for Dirk, stayed in the middle, then traded and spent tons of money, before winning their title

Lakers took advantage of a team willing to give up its star player for expirings and picks, to get Pau Gasol

Miami completely bottomed out, sold off everybody, then brought in Lebron and Bosh, and re-signed Wade

I think what Vol was alluding to, is that history definitely shows that if you want to win a championship, you MUST acquire a superstar player . . some way . . some how. And most of the time, you have to be really bad to do this. I listed all of the teams who have won championships since the Bird-Magic era. And even some of the contenders who have won titles, bottomed out first . . . then built championship caliber teams ( OKC, Orlando, LA Clippers, etc ).

Ferry chased after Dwight, which would follow this formula. The problem was, everybody knew that he virtually had no shot to get him. At that point, Ferry had 3 options

- build the best team possible

- keep us in the middle

- tank

I still say that a Al Jefferson - Al Horford frontline would've been a PROBLEM for the Eastern Conference. You're talking about two high quality big men who can both score and rebound. Add to the fact that both guys can play center, we could've kept one of them on the court at all times.

So at that point, all we needed was a 3rd piece to the puzzle. Could've gone after Iguodala. Or could've made a serious play for Monta Ellis. Or could've even brought on Paul Millsap, to REALLY solidify this frontline, by maybe starting Millsap at SF, but giving him the bulk of his minutes at PF with the 2nd unit.

Ferry is playing the middle, hoping that "flexibility" will save him in the future.

Meanwhile, we have no legit 2nd guy to play alongside Horford. We have no true center. And we don't have a legit shot to get one of those top 5, possibly franchise changing, players in this year's draft.

That's why people are doubting the "genius" of Ferry. All he's done is trade JJ for cap space. That's his signature move as GM. Meanwhile, all most fans see for the immediate future, is .500 basketball at best. Until he does something to change that, he will have his critics.

[HawkItus]

you forgot Miami traded for Shaq and drafted Wade.