My problem with Ferry

[tonegully]

This team lost 14 out of 15 games at one point this season. And we only won 38 games.

Until this team does something that the Joe Johnson era teams did, like...I don't know ... win 50+ games and win a playoff series ... save all of that glowing praise of the GM.

Facts are, as good as Millsap was this year, we would've been better off with Jefferson. And when he passes on another significant free agent this year to add cheaper, analytically correct players, we'll see how much we improve this year.

You talk about Harden and Howard, like they didn't play a star laden team in Portland. Aldridge and Lillard are All-Star caliber players themselves, and they have a better supporting cast than Harden and Howard do.

If we only add marginal pieces to this team this summer, don't be surprised if the Hawks are a 7th or 8th seed once again.

Listen, this team we have now are very good. We have a decent core to build around. People playing, knowing and accepting their roles. Any NBA team is a severely high ankle sprain from not making the playoffs or barely getting in. The point is that this team fought and got in the playoffs and made some noise WITHOUT OUR BEST PLAYER.

Its funny listening to Rockets, Blazers, and Clippers fans talking about what they need to get to the next round when those teams have everything people on this board are complaining that we need. Would I like a superstar here? Hell yeah but Free agents have to WANT to come here first. Start don't go to losing teams, losing teams draft future stars but an established star doesn't want to go to losing team. I laugh when i hear Melo staying with NYK or going to the Bulls, if he wants to win he doesn't play in any of those places.

Bud and Ferry are moving the team in a great directions, so instead of hating just sit back and enjoy the ride.

[Admin]

Agreed and it's what I expect Ferry to do as he continues to chase a system while eschewing the fact that we need talent upgrades.

Certainly respect your opinion but I disagree with the idea that the culture will win us games. It sounds good on paper but we still need more talent. The teams you mention all have one significant thing in common and it was perhaps the biggest reason they didn't advance further in the playoffs. Here's a hint: if any of them played in the East they'd probably still be playing.

Agree on Melo and stars in general.

Lastly, I'm trying to enjoy the ride 'cause it kinda is what it is at this point. However, I'm seeing 2nd-round ceilings in our future which we all agree wasn't good enough for the last regime. Just because the current regime provides a more palatable product doesn't mean the bar is lower.

Where did this myth come from that Ferry doesn't know we need talent upgrades or a superstar? He's had a superstar in Cleveland and San Antonio and yet for some reason some of you think he doesn't believe in them.

[AHF]

My question is how Ferry thinks we are going to get a superstar. SA drafted Tim Duncan #1 overall; Cleveland drafted Lebron #1 overall. If Ferry doesn't want to play the lottery which was the only source he has tapped for a franchise, superstar then what route is he looking?

If it is cap space, I question his sanity (is Lebron, Durant, etc. coming here with first and second round exits? No.).

If it is trade, then I will wait and see but I don't see us with the assets - which typically include one or more lottery picks - to get one of these guys or even a next level piece like Harden.

So while I am sure Ferry wants a superstar, I am not seeing his path to that goal. That raises the question of whether early playoff exits are a satisfactory goal since that seems the most likely result for the foreseeable future.

Ferry still can take this boat a lot of directions so I am in the wait and see category. Since I can't see the path he intends to take to bigger and better things than being the next Memphis Grizzlies type of team, I am saying "surprise me, Ferry."

[Ruckus]

I want a GM with a chip on his shoulder. I want a coach with a chip on his shoulder. I want players with chips on their shoulders. I like chips.

[DJlaysitup]

Well DF got rid of JJ...didn't re-sign Smoove (our wanna be all-star)...and brought in Millsap (a real all-star) at less money. I'm not a big fan of his draft picks but I gotta think that - overall - he's doing pretty good.

[JTB]

Seriously guys who said that ferry didn't want a star on this team?

That rumor just got made up in this thread...that's what it is.

And who said Ferry didn't or wasn't looking for better talent?

Why in the world would ferry not look for better talent?

I want a GM with a chip on his shoulder. I want a coach with a chip on his shoulder. I want players with chips on their shoulders. I like chips.

Do we not have that?

[Ruckus]

Do we not have that?

I think we do. I was responding to those who think Ferry having a chip on his shoulder is a bad thing.

[JTB]

I think we do. I was responding to those who think Ferry having a chip on his shoulder is a bad thing.

Oh ok...sorry about that, this thread isn't too surprising but I do find the new rumor that ferry doesn't want a superstar way over the top! I mean that's basically what the negative posters are saying when you sum it all up. SMH

[Admin]

Clearly he wants talent upgrades but I don't think he wants a superstar. I think he wants guys who analytically fit. In SA they have/had superstars who happened to be bought-in. What was he gonna do in Cle, trade Lebron?

That's the thing, you're thinking that's what he wants with zero evidence of it and evidence actually pointing to the fact that he does want one. Just trying to head this silly rumor / thought off now before more lemmings jump.

[JTB]

That's the thing, you're thinking that's what he wants with zero evidence of it and evidence actually pointing to the fact that he does want one. Just trying to head this silly rumor / thought off now before more lemmings jump.

Lol yes please provide some evidence that ferry doesn't want a star.

[Guest]

Well we did sign sign Millssp to a 2 year deal to trade him to Houston this past trade deadline a wink wink deal - so of course DF doesn't want a star (purple).

It's amazing how easily an opinion becomes fact.

[JTB]

Well we did sign sign Millssp to a 2 year deal to trade him to Houston this past trade deadline a wink wink deal - so of course DF doesn't want a star (purple).

It's amazing how easily an opinion becomes fact.

LMAO @JayBirdHawk I forgot about that rumor! Lol

I was one of the sure dumbasses that just knew we signed him to trade him! Lol man that is hilarious that everyone including me thought that it was just a fact that ferry signed sap to trade him for asik.

Yeah I learned my lesson to stop trying to know what ferry is going to do instead I will just guess.

[Diesel]

Hold the judgement on ferry people. I will tell you guys this...when the hawks did have bigger names smith, Johnson, bibby, Crawford, whoever else...they were soft as hell! One soft ass coward team!

But today we have a new gm that brought in tough players like DMC, Sap, Brand, other smaller names that play like they want to be here and play like men for 48 minutes.

I'm not wrapped up on this star player stuff as much as I once was. Truth is, is that stars don't always come through! Look a Howard and harden they failed Big time this year!

I rather have 3 all stars and a great ass supporting cast! That alone will make some noise in the east! Breaking the bank for one star ain't good enough or better than that.

Whether you agree with the approach is not the question. The point is that you recognize that this is the approach... That's all. We want to walk around and act like we're blind to approach.

[Diesel]

1) The fact that people still think that he didn't meet with Dwight or if he did, it was to discuss the weather rather than have him join the team.

2) He didn't tank.

It's not just that. He's a student of Analytics. Analytics was brought in to keep salaries low (no superstars) while keeping teams in the hunt. It's like going for effort guys. I don't think any team has really shown that Analytics minus a star can win a championship. Especially not in basketball. Basketball is a sport that pisses on effort guys.

Another reason is because of some things he has said....He has said: ""I want to build a culture here," Ferry says, "about character, about winning, about loving to play, about longevity."" This was in Cleveland. He always puts Character ahead of everything. I like that as a person but if I were GM, I would put Talent higher than longevity. You can't win this game without Talent.

[AHF]

Analytics should tell you that the best bargains in the game are superstars. Their salaries are capped well below their market value. They are the ideal analytics roster component.

It is the Joe Johnsons of the world that analytics will say are not such great uses of your resources. Lebron or Duncan are fantastic values.

[Diesel]

Analytics should tell you that the best bargains in the game are superstars. Their salaries are capped well below their market value. They are the ideal analytics roster component.

It is the Joe Johnsons of the world that analytics will say are not such great uses of your resources. Lebron or Duncan are fantastic values.

True. But analytics also love a guy whose per minute production is killer.... like Patty Mills, Shelvin Mack.

[nathan2331]

True. But analytics also love a guy whose per minute production is killer.... like Patty Mills, Shelvin Mack.

And those guys are also great assets to your team. They don't win you a championship by themselves but they help you get there.

[MaceCase]

It's not just that. He's a student of Analytics. Analytics was brought in to keep salaries low (no superstars) while keeping teams in the hunt. It's like going for effort guys. I don't think any team has really shown that Analytics minus a star can win a championship. Especially not in basketball. Basketball is a sport that pisses on effort guys.

Another reason is because of some things he has said....He has said: ""I want to build a culture here," Ferry says, "about character, about winning, about loving to play, about longevity."" This was in Cleveland. He always puts Character ahead of everything. I like that as a person but if I were GM, I would put Talent higher than longevity. You can't win this game without Talent.

As has been pointed out already, this is a misrepresentation of what analytics work to achieve. At no point do analytics attempt to tell you that role player X will serve you better than Lebron. What they show you is that Lebron is more valuable than say Carmelo or that Kyle is better value at his deal than JR Smith when your eyes are telling you that the gap isn't that large or one is better because the latter have more aesthetically pleasing games.

Ferry has not eschewed talent in the pursuit of "analytics". He has specifically gotten the best value out of his deals while leaving himself open to the possibility of actually obtaining star talent. Take everyone's flavor of the week, Al Jefferson. Did he produce 21 million worth better than Millsap? The answer is no but that hasn't stopped you and others from using that as a negative against Ferry. 21 million is a small price to pay for a marginally better player it seems.

The issue here isn't his ego as he's not doing anything unconventional. The issue here isn't that he doesn't value stars as any claim otherwise is unfounded. The issue here is plenty of fans are still fond of overpaying 2nd and 3rd tier players while Ferry looks to get a steal when dealing with players in that tier.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Listen, this team we have now are very good. We have a decent core to build around. People playing, knowing and accepting their roles. Any NBA team is a severely high ankle sprain from not making the playoffs or barely getting in. The point is that this team fought and got in the playoffs and made some noise WITHOUT OUR BEST PLAYER.

Its funny listening to Rockets, Blazers, and Clippers fans talking about what they need to get to the next round when those teams have everything people on this board are complaining that we need. Would I like a superstar here? Hell yeah but Free agents have to WANT to come here first. Start don't go to losing teams, losing teams draft future stars but an established star doesn't want to go to losing team. I laugh when i hear Melo staying with NYK or going to the Bulls, if he wants to win he doesn't play in any of those places.

Bud and Ferry are moving the team in a great directions, so instead of hating just sit back and enjoy the ride.

We happen to catch the Pacers at their most vulnerable state in the season. That team had been messed up for almost 2 months before that playoff series.

Give the Hawks props for fighting hard in the playoffs. But this squad was not a good team. We were horrible on the road ( only won 14 games ) and we had trouble vs most good teams.

Even when healthy with a bottom 5 weakest schedule, we were only 3 games above .500 when Horford got hurt.

If the GM only does minimalistic moves, expect a minimal move in the standings.

[Diesel]

Ferry has not eschewed talent in the pursuit of "analytics". He has specifically gotten the best value out of his deals while leaving himself open to the possibility of actually obtaining star talent. Take everyone's flavor of the week, Al Jefferson. Did he produce 21 million worth better than Millsap? The answer is no but that hasn't stopped you and others from using that as a negative against Ferry. 21 million is a small price to pay for a marginally better player it seems.

IF you look purely at stats... You would say that Jefferson and Millsap are close. However, Jefferson is a guy who can give you a low post game. That's huge. The statmongers don't care where the stats arise from... That's the problem. Sap is great don't get me wrong, but when it comes to playing the team like Miami... a Matchup of Jefferson/Korver would have been much better than Sap/Kover simply because of where Jefferson gets his points.