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[NBASupes]

There's two MAJOR things that you ( and he ) forget though.

The Hawks don't have a go-to scorer, when the "system" isn't producing. And we're a weak rebounding team, especially defensively.

So tell me how a player who can address those two issues, plus give us the ability to keep two high quality centers in the game at all times if we wanted ( in Jefferson and Horford ), doesn't fit the great "system"?

Jefferson is a basketball player. He could easily move the ball around, if he were asked to do so. Having said that, any coach who didn't utilize his elite ability to score on people in the post, would be a dummy of a coach. There's no way I'd want Mike Scott or Pero Antić shooting a 3, over Jefferson doing a post-up move on the low block, all for the sake of "ball movement".

At some point soon, all of you will understand that the Hawks need significant TALENT in order to see this system work like it does for the Spurs. And we as fans have to hope that the GM doesn't dismiss talented players, simply because they haven't played his style of play on other teams.

As much as people talk about stretching the floor and ball movement, the Spurs start most games with Duncan and Tiago Splitter on the frontline.

Number of 3s taken by the two of them during the regular season?

EIGHT . . . and they missed all 8 threes.

Number of 3s taken by Antić alone?

ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-ONE

So if people REALLY want to copy the Spurs, how about adding two guys to the frontline who will actually play like big men, and take big man type shots . . . instead of relying on wannabe 3 point shooters that can't score in the post to save their lives.

I mean, we did only win 38 games and held on for dear life to make the playoffs. And when we actually had a chance to shock the world in Game 6, we didn't have the go-to guys on offense to actually get the job done.

We both are well aware of our defensive rebounding issues and a lack of a go to scorer and we are aware that Jefferson could have helped in those areas last year, not just this year but the reward didn't outweigh the risk for his pricetag for our system. You made this argument before and I disagree on the same premise.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I didn't say Jefferson was overpaid. I said the same thing as @MaceCase that we got a comparable player for a good bit less money and a shorter contract.

I do t recall him saying Jefferson significantly improved Charlotte. I recall him listing multiple reasons for Charlottes improvement, with Jefferson among them.

You may want to review that thread, to refresh your memory on what was said.

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/394015-my-problem-with-ferry/

The ONLY mention he made concerning Charlotte, was citing that Charlotte's five Lottery draft picks had a hand ( possibly a bigger hand ) in the Bobcats dramatically improving, instead of giving a lot of that credit to Charlotte adding Jefferson to the team. He made every attempt to try to diminish Jefferson, in order to say that Millsap was the better fit and value.

So let's look at the Charlotte Lottery picks:

- Kemba Walker . . . http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/walkeke02.html

- Gerald Henderson . . . http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hendege02.html

- Michael Kidd-Gilchrist . . . http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddgmi01.html

- Cody Zellar . . . http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/z/zelleco01.html

- Bismack Biyombo . . . http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/biyombi01.html

Now you tell me, which one ( or a group ) of those guys had such a breakout year, that you can say that their improvement had a big hand in Charlotte jumping from 21 wins to 43 wins . . over the contributions that Al Jefferson brought to that team? You can say that Kemba and maybe MKG sligtly improved at best. Henderson regressed. Zellar was a rookie who wasn't terrible. And Biyombo was hit and miss off the bench.

No one wants to admit that by adding a very high quality player to that roster, Charlotte stabilized that team. And it not only stabilized the team, it made the team significantly better because he can make clutch scoring plays on offense and secure huge possession stopping rebounds on defense.

It is what it is though. The GM will probably shop once again at the Dollar Store, and try to find quality cheap players who can do one thing well, but aren't complete players.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

We both are well aware of our defensive rebounding issues and a lack of a go to scorer and we are aware that Jefferson could have helped in those areas last year, not just this year but the reward didn't outweigh the risk for his pricetag for our system. You made this argument before and I disagree on the same premise.

You are also a big proponent of Horford being even as good as Karl Malone, if we had a dynamic PG who could really get him the ball in the right spots. Do you know what Malone always complained about?

Not having a dominant center to play alongside.

He came into the league playing with a pure defensive All-Star center in Mark Eaton. Once Eaton retired, these were his starting centers:

- Felton Spencer

- James Donaldson

- Greg Oestertag

- Greg Foster

- Olden Polynice

- Jarron Collins ( the other Collins Twin )

I mean look at that list. A halfway decent big man was one of the things preventing Utah coming out of the West for most of the 90s. And it definitely prevented them from winning a title.

Now Horford has played center most of his entire time in Atlanta. And the best center he played with was Zaza Pachulia. Freakin' Zaza.

So we get a chance to finally put a high quality dude at center, and give Horford the opportunity to see if he can flourish at his natural PF position . . and we basically said no . . you are our center . . deal with it.

We'll give you a high quality PF to play with . . [ Smith and Millsap ] . . but we will not allow you to play alongside a decent center so that you can play PF. When we DO decide to play you spot minutes at PF, you have to play alongside these guys:

- Zaza Pachulia

- Lorenzen Wright . . RIP

- Jason Collins

- Johan Petro

- Elton Brand

Its really sad

[Sothron]

I like Jefferson but he's not exactly in his prime. The Hornets will ride what he can give them but that team isn't going anywhere. They have no flexibility with his contract not like we have with Horford and Millsap respectively. I also have to point out that when the Hornets needed Big Al the most he got hurt and couldn't play.

I also have to add I think this was his best season in the NBA at least after his knee injuries back in Minn. He was a full on beast pre injury in Minn. He carried the Hornets.

[NBASupes]

You are also a big proponent of Horford being even as good as Karl Malone, if we had a dynamic PG who could really get him the ball in the right spots. Do you know what Malone always complained about?

Not having a dominant center to play alongside.

He came into the league playing with a pure defensive All-Star center in Mark Eaton. Once Eaton retired, these were his starting centers:

- Felton Spencer

- James Donaldson

- Greg Oestertag

- Greg Foster

- Olden Polynice

- Jarron Collins ( the other Collins Twin )

I mean look at that list. A halfway decent big man was one of the things preventing Utah coming out of the West for most of the 90s. And it definitely prevented them from winning a title.

Now Horford has played center most of his entire time in Atlanta. And the best center he played with was Zaza Pachulia. Freakin' Zaza.

So we get a chance to finally put a high quality dude at center, and give Horford the opportunity to see if he can flourish at his natural PF position . . and we basically said no . . you are our center . . deal with it.

We'll give you a high quality PF to play with . . [ Smith and Millsap ] . . but we will not allow you to play alongside a decent center so that you can play PF. When we DO decide to play you spot minutes at PF, you have to play alongside these guys:

- Zaza Pachulia

- Lorenzen Wright . . RIP

- Jason Collins

- Johan Petro

- Elton Brand

Its really sad

Those were centers nonetheless. He still had John Stockton. He was clearly offensive more aggressive than Al. I think we all can agree on that. Malone didn't have the center he needed for a title outside of Eaton and they didn't have the cast they had in the 90's in the 80's.

Horford wouldn't benefit as much from Jefferson as you or I would think but Jefferson would be a better fit than say... Millsap next to Al. Especially on defense since Al can defend PF's.

[AHF]

If Jefferson keeps playing at the level he did last year over the next several years, I find it hard to come up with an argument that he wouldn't have been worth the contract or a nice add to Atlanta at that price. I find it a more compelling argument that he took a big step forward last season and that Ferry shouldn't be damned for being unwilling to take the risk at that price that he would take that step forward.

For example, if you view Jefferson as looking something like this for value:

($10M with regression -- $12M as he was in Utah -- $14M as he was last year)

and Millsap as:

($9M with regression -- $10M as he was in Utah -- $11M as he was last year)

Then you can understand why Ferry would think he had a sure "profit" by signing Sap as he did versus a risker play in Jefferson. Neither guy would have made us a contender but I have a hard time arguing with northcyde that Jefferson wouldn't have been a good add and very possibly the better choice if we knew what he would do last season and if he played in Atlanta like he did in Charlotte and keeps it up.

[NBASupes]

North is right for the most part, which is why it's hard to really go v. what he's saying. I can only talk about then. Because now, I think Al was a top 10 NBA player.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

-

I like Jefferson but he's not exactly in his prime. The Hornets will ride what he can give them but that team isn't going anywhere. They have no flexibility with his contract not like we have with Horford and Millsap respectively. I also have to point out that when the Hornets needed Big Al the most he got hurt and couldn't play.

I also have to add I think this was his best season in the NBA at least after his knee injuries back in Minn. He was a full on beast pre injury in Minn. He carried the Hornets.

Flexibility? How's this for "flexibility"

- Jefferson only has 2 more years left on his deal, and he can opt out at the end of next season, which he probably should do to get that last big money extension/contract of his career.

- They only have 8 guaranteed contracts right now totaling 44 million.

- They can add a significant free agent if they want to

- AND . . they have a freakin' LOTTERY PICK . . that they can keep, or use to trade down to get multiple 1st round picks, giving them 3 picks in the 1st round.

Why do our fans act like we're in such a better position than other teams? And "flexibility" means nothing, if you're not willing to spend money to bring in players that can help you. If we're consistently under the cap the next 3 - 4 years, two things have happened:

- None of our 1st round picks have developed to the point that they can command more money on their 2nd contracts

- One or two of our top 3 players has left the team, and we got nothing for them leaving . . but cap space and "flexibility".

WOW @ holding that injury over Jefferson's head, when Horford has been hurt in 2 of the last 3 years we've needed him in the playoffs. Injuries happen. Ask Chicago.

Charlotte can do anything we can do, plus add a lottery pick to their team.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

If Jefferson keeps playing at the level he did last year over the next several years, I find it hard to come up with an argument that he wouldn't have been worth the contract or a nice add to Atlanta at that price. I find it a more compelling argument that he took a big step forward last season and that Ferry shouldn't be damned for being unwilling to take the risk at that price that he would take that step forward.

For example, if you view Jefferson as looking something like this for value:

($10M with regression -- $12M as he was in Utah -- $14M as he was last year)

and Millsap as:

($9M with regression -- $10M as he was in Utah -- $11M as he was last year)

Then you can understand why Ferry would think he had a sure "profit" by signing Sap as he did versus a risker play in Jefferson. Neither guy would have made us a contender but I have a hard time arguing with northcyde that Jefferson wouldn't have been a good add and very possibly the better choice if we knew what he would do last season and if he played in Atlanta like he did in Charlotte and keeps it up.

To me, it was a moderate risk - high reward type of deal.

A moderate risk in the fact that Jefferson and Horford would eat up 24 - 27 million of our payroll. At worst, we'd only see moderate team improvement with those two playing together . . which is what most people believed would happen.

At best, they become the best frontline duo in the league, with their ability to score and rebound the basketball. And in the East, that would give us a very good shot at being a top 3 seed in this conference.

[Admin]

To me, it was a moderate risk - high reward type of deal.

A moderate risk in the fact that Jefferson and Horford would eat up 24 - 27 million of our payroll. At worst, we'd only see moderate team improvement with those two playing together . . which is what most people believed would happen.

At best, they become the best frontline duo in the league, with their ability to score and rebound the basketball. And in the East, that would give us a very good shot at being a top 3 seed in this conference.

At worst with their injury histories they're both on the shelf and we have one of the worst teams in the league.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

At worst with their injury histories they're both on the shelf and we have one of the worst teams in the league.

Which would give us a top 4 lottery pick.

That would definitely be following the Spurs model. Get a top 4 pick, possibly the #1 pick . . and also have the ability to bring back your top 2 players to team with him.

[Admin]

Which would give us a top 4 lottery pick.

That would definitely be following the Spurs model. Get a top 4 pick, possibly the #1 pick . . and also have the ability to bring back your top 2 players to team with him.

That would not be okay with me as we'd have 2 major salary suckers coming off of injury.

[Diesel]

-

Flexibility? How's this for "flexibility"

- Jefferson only has 2 more years left on his deal, and he can opt out at the end of next season, which he probably should do to get that last big money extension/contract of his career.

- They only have 8 guaranteed contracts right now totaling 44 million.

- They can add a significant free agent if they want to

- AND . . they have a freakin' LOTTERY PICK . . that they can keep, or use to trade down to get multiple 1st round picks, giving them 3 picks in the 1st round.

Why do our fans act like we're in such a better position than other teams? And "flexibility" means nothing, if you're not willing to spend money to bring in players that can help you. If we're consistently under the cap the next 3 - 4 years, two things have happened:

- None of our 1st round picks have developed to the point that they can command more money on their 2nd contracts

- One or two of our top 3 players has left the team, and we got nothing for them leaving . . but cap space and "flexibility".

WOW @ holding that injury over Jefferson's head, when Horford has been hurt in 2 of the last 3 years we've needed him in the playoffs. Injuries happen. Ask Chicago.

Charlotte can do anything we can do, plus add a lottery pick to their team.

It's homerism to think that we're in a better place than Charlotte. IF I were a FA, I would want to go to Charlotte. Talent plus a low post scorer = championship material. Right now Charlotte lacks talent. However, they are working on it,

This guy is better than Ferry.

[Admin]

It's homerism to think that we're in a better place than Charlotte. IF I were a FA, I would want to go to Charlotte. Talent plus a low post scorer = championship material. Right now Charlotte lacks talent. However, they are working on it,

This guy is better than Ferry.

Atlanta has more NBA level players who've proven they can play at this level than Charlotte has. They've got too many potential busts that aren't panning out.

As far as coaching and GMing goes there's no doubt Ferry and Bud are better.

And I know I'll catch some flack for this but I'd much rather live in Charlotte since it's clean and quiet and still getting nicer.

[benhillboy]

Is this a Charlotte Hornets board? Why such vehement defense for a team that has an All-NBA player at center yet couldn't win a game against Miami with Birdman at the 5?

Dragic was kinda surprising to me, although Wall and Lowry really don't do it for me. I think I like defensive-minded Conley more than all of em. Kyrie disappointed the hell out of me this year.

Anthony Davis over Dwight all day, no contest. No other complaints after that. I'm no Tony Parker fan, never have never will be, but I don't have a problem with the prestige and respect he gets.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Is this a Charlotte Hornets board? Why such vehement defense for a team that has an All-NBA player at center yet couldn't win a game against Miami with Birdman at the 5?

Dragic was kinda surprising to me, although Wall and Lowry really don't do it for me. I think I like defensive-minded Conley more than all of em. Kyrie disappointed the hell out of me this year.

Anthony Davis over Dwight all day, no contest. No other complaints after that. I'm no Tony Parker fan, never have never will be, but I don't have a problem with the prestige and respect he gets.

So the injury to Jefferson in the 2nd quarter of Game 1 had nothing to do with how successful or unsuccessful the Cats were vs the eventual 3x World Champs?

My thing is that Hawks fans are acting like we're in the catbird seat or something. Like we are unquestionably a top 3 seed in the East when Horford comes back. No we're not. Not without significant upgrades to this lineup. Rose is coming back for Chicago + they have some money to add a significant free agent. Lopez is coming back for Brooklyn. Washington and Toronto are both young teams that passed us this year.

So how are the Hawks OK, if we don't look to add significant talent to this roster?

I'll leave this alone though, and let you guys comment the rest of the way.

We have a lot of work to do as a franchise, to even be considered as a contender.

[Admin]

Pretty much agree with all this. MKG is a bust and I kinda expect their pick from a year ago to bust as well (guy from IN who's name escapes me). I also expect Charlotte to sign Stephenson (to much teeth-knashing from HS members) who'll bust there too.

The city of Charlotte is nice though. Kinda like ATL 20+ years ago and I don't mean that in a mean way.

Hell Charlotte is a lot more beautiful than Houston so it's not just a knock on Atlanta from me. Charlotte is just one of the more beautiful growing cities in the country.

[Guest]

So the injury to Jefferson in the 2nd quarter of Game 1 had nothing to do with how successful or unsuccessful the Cats were vs the eventual 3x World Champs?

My thing is that Hawks fans are acting like we're in the catbird seat or something. Like we are unquestionably a top 3 seed in the East when Horford comes back. No we're not. Not without significant upgrades to this lineup. Rose is coming back for Chicago + they have some money to add a significant free agent. Lopez is coming back for Brooklyn. Washington and Toronto are both young teams that passed us this year.

So how are the Hawks OK, if we don't look to add significant talent to this roster?

I'll leave this alone though, and let you guys comment the rest of the way.

We have a lot of work to do as a franchise, to even be considered as a contender.

1. Rose is coming back sure, they do not have cap space, they are at $63 million next season, they can always amnesty Boozer's $16 mil which puts them at $47 million.

2. I have no trust in Lopez or Deron's feet, KG might retire.

3. Both Washington and Toronto have free agent questions - will Washington resign BOTH Gortat and Ariza, will Lowry resign with Toronto or leave for LAL

4. Since the season ended - most squawkers, DF and Bud have said, we need a talent upgrade.

I'm still taking the starting line-up of the Hawks over the Bobcats.

[Guest]

So the injury to Jefferson in the 2nd quarter of Game 1 had nothing to do with how successful or unsuccessful the Cats were vs the eventual 3x World Champs?

mmmmm......makes you wonder if the injury to Horford prevented us from beating this version of Indy and moving unto the 2nd round.

[Admin]

Charlotte sucks.

Waits patiently for @TheNorthCydeRises to defend them since they're his new favorite team with his favorite player on it