Over grading the work of Ferry.

[JETSET]

Had we drafted CP3? As many of is wanted? Or hired Doc Rivers as many of us wanted? What if we had packaged chill and the 2006 pick? What could we have secured?

What if we had picked one spot higher in 2007?

Would we still be having this conversation? Sure that's a ton of what if, but with the right management....we would have fared much better. MANAGEMENT of the reset was the problem, not the reset itself.

Outside of okc, name all of the teams who tanked perfectly like you are suggesting is possible. Im talking about a full blown tank. Not the spurs benching Robinson for one year.

[AHF]

Outside of okc, name all of the teams who tanked perfectly like you are suggesting is possible. Im talking about a full blown tank. Not the spurs benching Robinson for one year.

 

Almost every championship team had some low win scenario that led them to a core building block like Michael Jordan or Dwayne Wade or Tim Duncan or Isiah Thomas or Larry Bird or Scottie Pippen, etc.  The exceptions are teams that traded for picks like Vlade for the Kobe lottery pick or the Celtics dealing picks and players for KG and Ray Allen.

  And then the great exception of Ben Wallace's Pistons who were completely against the grain in their player acquisition.

[Wretch]

Outside of okc, name all of the teams who tanked perfectly like you are suggesting is possible. Im talking about a full blown tank. Not the spurs benching Robinson for one year.

 

There's the problem.  I don't believe that wiping the slate clean is a good measurable for the purpose of this conversation.  I also don't believe in trying to build a team exclusively the lottery/tanking.  I'm not saying "lottery or bust!"  If I were, I'd have to exclude teams like Boston, the Clippers, the Spurs, and the Heat who wheeled and dealt their way to success.

 

However, I do believe that you need a complete team to reach the ECF's...and a team is not complete without a core centered around phenomenal talent.  We are never going to beat those kinds of teams with a bunch of "good" players that play the right way.  How do we get the talent necessary to put us over?  The point isn't so much we need to wipe it clean as much as it is we need that talent.

 

Contending teams that have that talent drafted it in the lottery and/or traded for it using a lottery pick or (former lottery pick).  They have also attracted top tier talent with the phenomenal guys they drafted in the lottery (or traded for using a lottery pick/former lottery pick)  There are countless examples of that.  My biggest concern is how we intend to add that kind of talent using a part of the draft that doesn't produce those players at a reasonable rate and with our free agent prospectus.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Wretch

[OldTimeHawk]

money is at the heart of championship teams .  How many times year in and year out do you see the same bad teams in the lottery ?? To say losing helps you win isnt exactly accurate and it doesnt guarrantee you walk awy with a superstar.  Atlantas fragmented ownership is the biggest obstacle to winning period - look at what happened when we attempted to get Joe Johnson - right or wrong it sparked a war within the ownership group.

[JETSET]

There's the problem.  I don't believe that wiping the slate clean is a good measurable for the purpose of this conversation.  I also don't believe in trying to build a team exclusively the lottery/tanking.  I'm not saying "lottery or bust!"  If I were, I'd have to exclude teams like Boston, the Clippers, the Spurs, and the Heat who wheeled and dealt their way to success.

 

However, I do believe that you need a complete team to reach the ECF's...and a team is not complete without a core centered around phenomenal talent.  We are never going to beat those kinds of teams with a bunch of "good" players that play the right way.  How do we get the talent necessary to put us over?  The point isn't so much we need to wipe it clean as much as it is we need that talent.

 

Contending teams that have that talent drafted it in the lottery and/or traded for it using a lottery pick or (former lottery pick).  They have also attracted top tier talent with the phenomenal guys they drafted in the lottery (or traded for using a lottery pick/former lottery pick)  There are countless examples of that.  My biggest concern is how we intend to add that kind of talent using a part of the draft that doesn't produce those players at a reasonable rate and with our free agent prospectus.

Well we may be closer than expected.  I think the Nets will struggle big time if D-Will or Joe miss time this year.  I have no faith in Lopez staying healthy and they have lost their depth from last season. 

 

I'm also not a member of the crowd that thinks it is impossible for us to attract a bigger free agent.  I think that we will be able to attract higher end talent once we prove that we can consistently win.  Pau may be on this team right now if we didn't face so many injuries last season. I can't blame players for overlooking us in this past free agency period when they see a 38 win run-of-the-mill Hawks team without noticing the true potential of this team when healthy.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

money is at the heart of championship teams .  How many times year in and year out do you see the same bad teams in the lottery ?? To say losing helps you win isnt exactly accurate and it doesnt guarrantee you walk awy with a superstar.  Atlantas fragmented ownership is the biggest obstacle to winning period - look at what happened when we attempted to get Joe Johnson - right or wrong it sparked a war within the ownership group.

 

Losing doesn't necessarily help you win, but losing helps you get a shot at an elite talent.   A franchise changing talent.   The problem is that all drafts aren't created equal.   And all top 5 lottery picks aren't potential superstars.   But there's no denying that if you look at who are the stars on elite teams, most of them are very high lottery picks.

 

These are the 3 All-NBA team player selections from last season, and where they were picked in their respective draft.   Lottery picks are in BOLD.  Top 5 lottery picks are in BOLD RED

 

1st team

 

Paul . . 4th

Harden . . 3rd

Durant . . 2nd

Lebron . . 1st

Noah . . . 9th

 

 

 

2nd team

 

Curry . . . 7th

Parker . . 28th

Griffin . . . 1st

Love . . . . 5th

Howard . . 1st

 

 

 

3rd team

 

Dragic . . . 45th

Lillard . . . . 6th

Aldridge . . 2nd

George . . . 10th

Jefferson . . 15th

 

 

We have a 3rd pick in the draft.  He's a very good talent, but not an elite or franchise changing talent.  But it's not like we're trying to maximize all of his talents either.   The organization seems to be content with Horford being exactly what he is right now, and not trying to get the most out of him.   It's all about the system, and not about the system possibly turning him from a very good player, to a borderline elite player.

 

So if it's the system that is most important, we need as much top level talent as we can get.  IF that means trading some of your mid level talent ( or even a draft pick ) for better talent, that's what you do.  If you have to overpay for free agents to get higher level talent, that's what you do.

 

And you don't have to cripple yourself financially to do this.  When you're a gazillion dollars under the cap, it's not going to kill a team to overpay a higher level talent that can help them more than going to the Dollar Store and buying up a bunch of cheap talent.  Hopefully Bud, in his new role, will realize this.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

 

 

These are the 3 All-NBA team player selections from last season, and where they were picked in their respective draft.   Lottery picks are in BOLD.  Top 5 lottery picks are in BOLD RED

 

1st team

 

Paul . . 4th

Harden . . 3rd

Durant . . 2nd

Lebron . . 1st

Noah . . . 9th

 

 

 

2nd team

 

Curry . . . 7th

Parker . . 28th

Griffin . . . 1st

Love . . . . 5th

Howard . . 1st

 

 

 

3rd team

 

Dragic . . . 45th

Lillard . . . . 6th

Aldridge . . 2nd

George . . . 10th

Jefferson . . 15th

 

 

 

And look at how those current teams acquired those players.

 

Paul - via a blockbuster trade that saw the Clippers give up their 2 best players at the time

Harden - in a "jack move" by Houston, that exploited the cheapness of OKC ( which will cost them a title )

Durant - same team

Lebron - because he wanted to "go home"

Noah - same team

 

Curry - same team

Parker - same team

Griffin - same team

Love - by trading 2 young #1 picks after obtaining Lebron

Howard - by paying the max and convincing him that he and Harden would be a dynamic duo.

 

Dragic - modest contract free agent signing

Lillard - same team

Aldridge - same team

George - same team

Jefferson - significant free agent signing with teams not willing to "overpay" for him

[Wretch]

Well we may be closer than expected.  I think the Nets will struggle big time if D-Will or Joe miss time this year.  I have no faith in Lopez staying healthy and they have lost their depth from last season. 

 

I'm also not a member of the crowd that thinks it is impossible for us to attract a bigger free agent.  I think that we will be able to attract higher end talent once we prove that we can consistently win.  Pau may be on this team right now if we didn't face so many injuries last season. I can't blame players for overlooking us in this past free agency period when they see a 38 win run-of-the-mill Hawks team without noticing the true potential of this team when healthy.

 

We agree on some stuff here...

 

I got excited about the pick swap last year...and seemingly jinxed us. lol  I'm not going to hold my breath on it this year.  For one, it just seems the way the ball bounces for us on anything.  We never catch a break.  More seriously though, I'm not going to count BKN out.  They're still a playoff team and if healthy, they'll be in the upper half of the East.  I hope I'm wrong here.

 

It's funny because I pointed out how lucky Houston was to come into that great pick via Toronto...and here we were just about to do the same thing.  Lopez went down and my eyes got big...and true to form, Hawks never catch a break. lol  Had it been LA with that pick, hell...they'd have won the damn lottery.

 

As far as free agency......I agree and disagree.  I agree because I DO think we have a shot at RFA's...guys like Eric Bledsoe.  I absolutely believe that we have a shot at those guys.  They make for expensive mistakes though.  Established stars are likely to seek other established stars to pair up with.

 

Anything can happen, but right now those guys don't want to come here.  You also have to understand, having a winning record in Atlanta isn't going to be a new milestone.  People talk like were a lottery team for the 5 years prior to Ferry's arrival.  We were a perennial playoff team, a 50 win team, and even a top 3 seed before Ferry got here.  Moreover, there are only three franchises in the entire NBA with more playoff appearances than the Hawks: The Lakers, Celtics, and 76ers.  

• We are not a losing franchise and that is not what has caused the negative perception of us.
• Winning games and making the playoffs has not endeared us to the media, fans, or free agents.

Danny Ferry did not come in here and turn us into a winner and that wasn't his mission.  His mission was to change the culture.  The problem is that we are seen as a boring, mismanaged, lukewarm team that cannot get out of the 2nd round.  But to change that, we will have to be a team that at worst, pushes the top 2 seeds to the limit and at best, beat them.  This year, Chicago and Cleveland are firmly planted in the way.  The problem is, if we don't add the talent that allows us to push those teams...how exactly are we going to change the perception?  The bigger problem is that we are not any more special than Miami, Toronto, Charlotte, or Washington.  If healthy, who knows if we're that much better than Brooklyn?  

 

We are stuck in the middle and the real threat is the lottery pool.  

 

Laugh, ignore it, and put it down all you want, but this IS where the franchise changing talent is coming from.  Before you know it, a team is going to sneak out of the cellar, sneak into the playoffs, and slide right to the front of the pack.  Who is going to be the next talent that breaks out?  One season, Derrick Rose was a pretty good prospect...shortly thereafter he's a damn MVP.  One season, Kevin Durant is just a #2 pick and looks pretty good.  The next, he's in the conversation about who the game's best is.  One season Paul George was a solid pickup at 10.  The next, he's leading the Pacers to the top of the East.  

 

One season, Cleveland is mired in lottery muck, the next they've got Kyrie, they've traded two lottery picks for Kevin Love, they have LeBron James, and they're still sitting on two former 4th overall picks - Boston acquired Ray Allen for the 5th pick and the Clippers acquired CP3 for a former #7 pick.

 

It's going to happen again and it's going to happen in the East.  If we don't move out of the middle, we are going to get leapfrogged.

[Wretch]

And look at how those current teams acquired those players.

 

Paul - via a blockbuster trade that saw the Clippers give up their 2 best players at the time

Harden - in a "jack move" by Houston, that exploited the cheapness of OKC ( which will cost them a title )

Durant - same team

Lebron - because he wanted to "go home"

Noah - same team

 

Curry - same team

Parker - same team

Griffin - same team

Love - by trading 2 young #1 picks after obtaining Lebron

Howard - by paying the max and convincing him that he and Harden would be a dynamic duo.

 

Dragic - modest contract free agent signing

Lillard - same team

Aldridge - same team

George - same team

Jefferson - significant free agent signing with teams not willing to "overpay" for him

 

LeBron is a good example to look at.  Obviously he wanted to go home, but knowing their cap situation, the fact that Kyrie is coming into his own...they've got a ton of picks to make deals.  The lottery strikes again.  Also, let's not forget that lottery picks were traded in some of these you've listed...  The Clippers gave up their former #7 pick and Houston traded their 2012 lottery pick in that Harden deal.  

 

Go through the list of ECF and WCF teams.  You will find the same pattern of lottery drafted core players and/or lottery trades.  Of course some people will read that as, "We gotta get rid of all of our talent, tank-tank-tank, and get Kevin Duncan-Jordan!"  My point is, and always has been...that we, as a team that has a hard time signing marquee free agents, are absolutely foolish for overlooking the lottery pool simply for the sake of staying competitive.

[JETSET]

I agree that our playoff performance will be key in regards to the perception of future free agents.  The answer to outplaying teams with more talent is pretty simple, Bud and the Spurs style system.  We saw how it leveled the playing field last year in the Pacers series.  That Pacers team had far more talent than us and we had them beat before we choked it away in game 6.  I expect us to be much deeper this season and I expect us to have a very strong playoff showing if we are healthy once that time gets here. 

[Wretch]

I agree that our playoff performance will be key in regards to the perception of future free agents.  The answer to outplaying teams with more talent is pretty simple, Bud and the Spurs style system.  We saw how it leveled the playing field last year in the Pacers series.  That Pacers team had far more talent than us and we had them beat before we choked it away in game 6.  I expect us to be much deeper this season and I expect us to have a very strong playoff showing if we are healthy once that time gets here. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpcZIjwQZpc

Maybe you're right dude.  Anything can happen and maybe The Coach Bud System^TM, superior work ethic, and our advanced analytics can overcome superior teams that aren't injured or slumping.  Maybe Thabo is the missing link.  Maybe we'll defy the draft odds and Payne or Dennis will actually blossom into the next Manu, Parker, or Millsap.  Maybe the lottery will produce nothing but busts for the next 3-5 years and the East will remain the same as it is now.

 

The odds and who we actually are just don't agree with that kind of optimism for me.  

Edited October 21, 2014 by Wretch

[OldTimeHawk]

Losing doesn't necessarily help you win, but losing helps you get a shot at an elite talent.   A franchise changing talent.   The problem is that all drafts aren't created equal.   And all top 5 lottery picks aren't potential superstars.   But there's no denying that if you look at who are the stars on elite teams, most of them are very high lottery picks.

 

These are the 3 All-NBA team player selections from last season, and where they were picked in their respective draft.   Lottery picks are in BOLD.  Top 5 lottery picks are in BOLD RED

 

1st team

 

Paul . . 4th

Harden . . 3rd

Durant . . 2nd

Lebron . . 1st

Noah . . . 9th

 

 

 

2nd team

 

Curry . . . 7th

Parker . . 28th

Griffin . . . 1st

Love . . . . 5th

Howard . . 1st

 

 

 

3rd team

 

Dragic . . . 45th

Lillard . . . . 6th

Aldridge . . 2nd

George . . . 10th

Jefferson . . 15th

 

 

We have a 3rd pick in the draft.  He's a very good talent, but not an elite or franchise changing talent.  But it's not like we're trying to maximize all of his talents either.   The organization seems to be content with Horford being exactly what he is right now, and not trying to get the most out of him.   It's all about the system, and not about the system possibly turning him from a very good player, to a borderline elite player.

 

So if it's the system that is most important, we need as much top level talent as we can get.  IF that means trading some of your mid level talent ( or even a draft pick ) for better talent, that's what you do.  If you have to overpay for free agents to get higher level talent, that's what you do.

 

And you don't have to cripple yourself financially to do this.  When you're a gazillion dollars under the cap, it's not going to kill a team to overpay a higher level talent that can help them more than going to the Dollar Store and buying up a bunch of cheap talent.  Hopefully Bud, in his new role, will realize this.

all those players , how many championships with the teams that drafted them ??? Durant in my opinion hurts his team as much as he helps them - Labron they had to go out and get pair him with 2 other elite type players and they still lost twice in the championship . 

 

Money is, was , and always will be one of the biggest factors coupled with coaching/ managing - probably more managing personalities than coaching.  Whats Labrons record in finals ?? Hardens ?? Durants ??  If you have a system that depends on 1 player its not going to be enough - now that one player may help carry your team, but you have to have a good supporting cast that understands its role. 

 

 To say we need to lose to win is the type of culture that I personally dont want to be assocaited with .

[JETSET]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpcZIjwQZpc

Maybe you're right dude.  Anything can happen and maybe The Coach Bud System^TM, superior work ethic, and our advanced analytics can overcome superior teams that aren't injured or slumping.  Maybe Thabo is the missing link.  Maybe we'll defy the draft odds and Payne or Dennis will actually blossom into the next Manu, Parker, or Millsap.  Maybe the lottery will produce nothing but busts for the next 3-5 years and the East will remain the same as it is now.

 

The odds and who we actually are just don't agree with that kind of optimism for me.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TkNPnoiolQ

 

Kyrie just doesn't scare me all that much.  Teague has proven that he can hang with him.  He didn't do so bad against Rose the last time he was healthy in 2011 either when Teague was a youngin.

 

You are acting like this is the Hawks team from 2-3 years ago that was capped out and hit its ceiling.  When, in fact, this is no where close to the reality of our current situation. 

Edited October 21, 2014 by JETSET

[Admin]

So why crap on Fratello/Lenny?  Budz is an incomplete at this point and that's not a knock.

 

Fratello is sooooo overrated among Hawks fans that it's not even funny. He was awful when it counted and was routinely out coached in the playoffs. 

 

And for as good as Lenny was, he's still the losingest coach in NBA history as well. 

[Wretch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TkNPnoiolQ

 

Kyrie just doesn't scare me all that much.  Teague has proven that he can hang with him.  He didn't do so bad against Rose the last time he was healthy in 2011 either when Teague was a youngin.

 

You are acting like this is the Hawks team from 2-3 years ago that was capped out and hit its ceiling.  When, in fact, this is no where close to the reality of our current situation. 

 

Well, I don't have much to add here except that Teague has been my favorite Hawk for some time now.  I've watched him closer than any other Hawk and have defended him from day one.  So, I'm well aware of what he brings.  The problem isn't so much being afraid of Kyrie or Rose...those teams have a lot more going for them than just those two guys.

 

Fratello is sooooo overrated among Hawks fans that it's not even funny. He was awful when it counted and was routinely out coached in the playoffs. 

 

And for as good as Lenny was, he's still the losingest coach in NBA history as well. 

 

Dolf...Fratello's not overrated and he's done good work outside of the Hawks too.  But let's not get into all that.  Can we just let Bud win a playoff series before we compare him to our former head coaches?  If that's too much to ask, can we just hold off on crowning him the best coach we've ever had until he's had more than a single season under his belt?

Edited October 21, 2014 by Wretch

[JETSET]

Well, I don't have much to add here except that Teague has been my favorite Hawk for some time now.  I've watched him closer than any other Hawk and have defended him from day one.  So, I'm well aware of what he brings.  The problem isn't so much being afraid of Kyrie or Rose...those teams have a lot more going for them than just those two guys.

 

 

Dolf...Fratello's not overrated and he's done good work outside of the Hawks too.  But let's not get into all that.  Can we just let Bud win a playoff series before we compare him to our former head coaches?  If that's too much to ask, can we just hold off on crowning him the best coach we've ever had until he's had more than a single season under his belt?

This post is quite ironic.  You seem more than willing to crown the newly formed Cavs and Bulls squads as untouchable before they play a single regular season game, but yet you disagree with giving praise to Bud until he wins a playoff series.  Seems a bit hypocritical in my opinion.

[Admin]

Dolf...Fratello's not overrated and he's done good work outside of the Hawks too.  But let's not get into all that.  Can we just let Bud win a playoff series before we compare him to our former head coaches?  If that's too much to ask, can we just hold off on crowning him the best coach we've ever had until he's had more than a single season under his belt?

 

We'll have to agree to disagree. The guy is one of the worst playoff coaches ever. That's all that matters to me. 

 

I wasn't comparing Bud to any of our former coaches in terms of all time greatness. Hell the guy has only coached here for a year and he had half his team injured for good parts of the season.  He's gonna have to coach a few more years before I'm ready to place him among the pantheon of disappointing Hawks coaches. 

[Wretch]

This post is quite ironic.  You seem more than willing to crown the newly formed Cavs and Bulls squads as untouchable before they play a single regular season game, but yet you disagree with giving praise to Bud until he wins a playoff series.  Seems a bit hypocritical in my opinion.

 

I'm not against praising Bud.  I'm against crowning him the best coach we've ever had until he actually wins a playoff series.  Hiring Bud is one the things that I actually give Danny Ferry massive amounts of praise for.  This is an example though of how fast people are willing to label someone a hater.  In 5 or 6 years, people will deny these conversations even took place.  :)

 

...and it's not in the least bit hypocritical to assume that both Cleveland and Chicago will present a problem for us (and the rest of the East as well).  Cleveland is loaded and Chicago has owned us for the last few seasons WITHOUT a healthy Derrick Rose.

 

If you honestly feel the way you do though, I seriously have to step aside and agree to disagree.

[JETSET]

I'm not against praising Bud.  I'm against crowning him the best coach we've ever had until he actually wins a playoff series.  Hiring Bud is one the things that I actually give Danny Ferry massive amounts of praise for.  This is an example though of how fast people are willing to label someone a hater.  In 5 or 6 years, people will deny these conversations even took place.  

 

...and it's not in the least bit hypocritical to assume that both Cleveland and Chicago will present a problem for us (and the rest of the East as well).  Cleveland is loaded and Chicago has owned us for the last few seasons WITHOUT a healthy Derrick Rose.

 

If you honestly feel the way you do though, I seriously have to step aside and agree to disagree.

There is a difference between "presenting a challenge for us" and being impossible to beat.  

[tbhawksfan]

These same arguments are argued every year. At the end of the year we'll finish with 40 something wins a first or second round exit and next off-season we' ll see the same arguments and similar results. Some seem to accept that and if we win a few more games, they'll cite the progress and talk about next year...etc...

If you want to win you play to win. Mediocre is just saying OK you da boss, I'm happy being 14th.

Don't give a dam who the GM is as long as he/she is playing to win.

Also would rather root homegrown to a championship. Draft talent.

Labeling someone a hater and using it as an arguement is the weakest crap on the board, right after homerism.

Here's to the Hawks winning at least 50 and surprising in the playoffs. No championship, but hey it's the Hawks.