The Official Millsap vs. Horford Thread

[NBASupes]

I got tired of looking in threads for responses I made on this subject so I will create a thread move my convos to this spot where it's easy to track. 

 

Previous convo with me and @Dolfan23

 

 

Once again, we get Al going on offense, it gets in the way of Sap. We get Sap going, it gets in the way of Al. Al is clearly the better player. Al needs to stay, play PF and we need to trade Sap for a legit center. We seen this with Rudy Gay, Dwight Howard and Anthony Davis. Fit can improve a player far more than talent if the fit has talent.

 

 

 

Elite at movement. Wth is that supposed to mean? And is it supposed to suggest that Millsap isn't? Cause 'impact wise' Millsap is simply better.

Yes saying Millsap is the better rebounder is correct. Go look at their rebound %'s. Millsap has 25 more rebounds this year in the same amount of games.

Millsap scores more, has almost 4 times as many steals, only .4 less blocks despite being shorter, has the highest VORP on the team and even costs 2.5 million less.
You can hate on him all you want but the only thing Al has on him is the very good mid-range jumper.

It's gonna break your heart when Millsap is brought back next year and when they decide to trade Al instead.

 

 

 

Understanding how to roll, how to cut, how to play off of screens, how to get open, understanding where to set a screen for you and the handler. It takes high BBIQ, agility, feel for the game and to perfect it in the NBA, it takes athletic ability.

Millsap isn't a movement player. He doesn't really like to move when off the ball. He like to put himself in position to get the ball and do the rest himself.

Impact wise Horford is much better. Not even comparable in my opinion or any true NBA head opinion. Thinking Sap has more impact is like those guys we used to have here who swore Smoove was more valuable than Horford and their used to be more than a few at one time. Now it's easy to throw Smoove under the bus but back then, it wasn't the case.

Horford's rebounding took a plunge due to him coming back from his injury and now he has been consistent on the boards or either boxing out, clearing out the paint for others like Sap, DMC, Korver and Mack to get boards.

Look at the numbers. per36 since Al has only played 29 MPG to Sap's 35MPG Al just about has better advanced and true numbers in every sense outside of steals, FTA's and rebounding while losing in FG%, WS, PER, AST, BLK, AST/TO, TO, ORtG, WS/48 and out of position the whole time. Sap gets dominated in many categories as well and this was Al without a training camp, preseason and he wasn't himself at first but now... No comparison. Horford is much better as he is. We all know Horford is a much better player than Millsap.

Millsap might be 2.5 million less but that's for this year and he's not a center. No one is going to pay him and he's not a big 3 piece. Jeff is more of that Jeff isn't. Horf can be useful out of position and misused but not Sap.

Overall, I would like Marc Gasol as would everyone then I would like Greg Monroe or Roy Hibbert. Not too high on Al Jefferson simply because you have to build your offense around him and he is a ball stopper. I tried telling northcyde that but assumed I was wrong and all behold, Charlotte tries to change it up and their 4-12. It's hard and near impossible to win with Jefferson unless it's his show. They are missing McBob as well which doesn't help.

Not high on Millsap. I think he is a very good offensive player and an average defensive player. He's undersized and unless you have a true really good center beside him, I don't see the value and I don't see the value much anyway. He's a 3rd rock to me. I can't build around him. Too one dimenisional for my taste and not good enough (Melo) to justify it. I would mind him and Drummond tho. That could work with the right PG.

I love Horf. I think the world of him. I really never think the world of any Hawk now or past. Maybe Pettit and Maravich but that was before my time. Wasn't the biggest Nique fan, I enjoy him more than any Hawk ever. Horf could be a superstar, you just have to use him right and have the right PG. I think Jeff is growing, he is becoming better and better. Still inconsistent but I will stop my trade chatter for now with him. I see him becoming a PG now. Dennis can special, has a long ways to go.

 

 

 

 

Again, the ONLY areas where Al is better is at shooting and that pumps up his offensive win shares, total win shares, TS%, and other stats that rely heavily on shooting %.

Let's get some actual #'s in here and you can see how it's sad that our PF is better or nearly equal to our C at things he shouldn't be better at like rebounding, shot blocking, etc. Oh and these are the PER36 numbers, just so you won't be able to use the minutes excuse.

 

 

Rk Player FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS 1 Al Horford 8.0 14.2 .563 0.2 0.5 .400 7.8 13.7 .568 0.9 1.2 .769 2.2 5.6 7.8 3.1 0.8 1.5 1.3 2.4 17.1 2 Paul Millsap 6.6 14.1 .466 1.1 3.3 .333 5.4 10.7 .507 3.2 5.0 .635 2.1 6.4 8.5 3.1 2.2 0.9 2.4 3.1 17.4

Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 11/27/2014.

 

 

I will now respond to his post below. 

[NBASupes]

 

And you want to talk about value and impact, well luckily basketball-reference finally came up with a stat like WARP in baseball that shows the value of a player vs that of a replacement player. That stat alone measures impact and value. 

 

VORP

Millsap - 3.0

Horford - 2.2

 

 

Or maybe we look at their box score tools?

 

DBPM (higher the # the better)

Millsap - 1.4

Horford - 0.5

 

 

On the offensive end, Horford wins out, again because he's such a tremendously accurate set shooter.

 

OBPM

Horford - 1.2

Millsap - 0.7

 

 

And no @hawksfanatic I don't care about using these even though I have no idea how they determine it. I trust them to come up with accurate and meaningful stats so suck it! 

A. Everything I wrote in the previous response was correct with the exception of AST which is even. My apologies. 

 

B. VORP, OBPM, DBPM??? You don't even know what the hell these really mean and how to use them in an actual discussion. Why would you even bring this up? You are starting to get annoying calling me out asking what do stuff like movement mean when you are just as bad using stuff like Millsap a versatile scorer when the numbers DON'T reflect that. Horf seems to the be the better more versatile scorer based on actual percentages but since I actually watch and understand the game. I take it as you are saying Sap can create his own offense better than Horford which is true. I watch and I agree. To say movement is empty talk is a load of nonsense. Movement players has always been vital to NBA Basketball. Look at Korver. Look at Malone. Look at Tyson Chandler. Look at Peja Sto and Reggie Miller. To say otherwise is a complete lack of Basketball knowledge. 

 

C. How can you say TS% and percentages pump up offensive numbers while not mentioning DREB and steals pump up defensive numbers. It makes Harden look like a better defender than Howard which ANYONE watching the NBA games would say otherwise. Defensive stats can be misleading. Tony Allen is one of the best NBA defenders but numbers don't reflect that. I think you need schooling in your own arguments because I was trying to save you from getting dismantled in a convo and your ego refuses to leave and I have to annihilate you on this topic. 

 

While I generally disagree with using per36, in this case we agree Horf is normally a 34-36MPG player so it's fair in this situation since injury played a key role. 

 

If I was you I would use +/- since that does hold merit to a degree. Sap has been better for the most part but over the last two games, we seen Horford has been far more valuable and is looking like the Horford of old. I can't find the post but you mentioned something about Horf had 7 points and 4 boards v. Washington no taking into account everything else Al was doing which was instrumental in our defeat of the Wizards who by all valuable reasoning is a better team than us. Since I was at the game, I can truthfully attest to that statement. In fact, I will repost it after this post. 

[NBASupes]

 

I was at the game last night in the 100's Section. Seen just about everything in good view. 

 

This thread is a prime example of an one star thread by an one star poster. Horford was huge for us last night in numerous ways that doesn't show up on the stat sheet. He was blocking out and making it possible for Korver, Mack, and DMC to get boards on offense and defense. He got in some foul problems. That wasn't on him, that was on the perimeter players struggling to keep their man in front of them but I have to say, it's kinda hard to stay in front of Washington's players. Those guys are really good. Horford protected the paint. Something that was huge for us in the 4th QT. He has passing and screens were huge. 

 

Now Washington gameplan was to cut off our efficient plays. It worked to a degree. That was cutting off the PnR/PnP, forcing Korver to create his own shot and forcing our guards to score without use of the PnR. It was effective to a degree but Teague adjusted in the 3rd and 4th, Dennis adjusted as well and Mack really fed in the 4th off of Al's energy. Sap came up huge in terms of scoring for the entire game. He wasn't always scoring or close to it but he was a threat and he wasn't playing hot potato like DMC and others were doing. Washington's gameplan ultimately failed due to our ball movement even with our efficient plays being somewhat ineffective and Jeff and Mack's aggressiveness in the 2nd half.  

 

Overall, I was very impressed with Al. He did a lot of things that didn't show up on the stat sheet but were winning plays. It's clear we changed his role to something closer to what he used to do for us as a rookie where he wasn't someone we targeted on offense but added more responsibility in terms of boxing out, toughness, fundamentals, and protecting the paint. Being that he is the only player on our roster who could even attempt to do what he's doing stood out. 

 

Kudos to Al. Kudos to Jeff, he played a hell of a 2nd half while looking like crap on defense in the 1st. Kudos to Dennis. His play really stands out live. He doesn't a lot that doesn't show up on the stat sheet. A lot of winning plays even if he isn't the best of shooters. He has some Ricky Rubio in his current game and I like it. Kudos to Sap, his scoring was vital. He was needed and his range as well as taking guys off the dribble is desperately needed in our offense. Sap is getting overvalued as well. He wasn't as effective as some posters here are making him seem especially if you look at the entire game. Not just focus on stats and scoring. Sap defense wasn't good at all. It was overall average. His hands were good. His really did a good job keeping his hands in the lane with DMC as well. He didn't box out much and he constantly looked late and undersized on D in the game. He wasn't protecting the paint or attempting to and Kris Kardashian had his way on the boards with him. 

 

Overall, I liked some things I saw from everyone and didn't from everyone but we won :-)

 

 

 

Once again, while I don't get it (Sap fans) like I didn't get it from Smoove fans. You are entited to your opinions even if I think you are wrong. 

 

I know some will say what about O.J. Mayo? What about O.J. I wanted him when we used Joe as the false PG. We needed a #1 scoring option and Mayo was a very good or great scorer when guarded by PG's and he could defend PG's especially if he had a rim protector when we Smoove. The team wasn't high ball movement or player movement so him playing PG wouldn't have a negative effect as it would in most situations. 

 

I always fully look at personnel and fit before I go extremely hard for a player I want. I would go hard for Marc Gasol but everyone wants him and Memphis wants to keep him and he wants to stay so that's a moot point. Anytime just one team wants someone, we usually don't get them so it everyone wants them, it's guaranteed we won't get him. 

 

@Hotlanta1981 You are like a bro to me. You know that. We just disagree on Horf. You see him as a very good player who is a role player and I see him as a potential superstar in the ideal situation. The one thing we do agree on is the way he's used right now and the personnel around him, he is super role player and not a true star much less superstar. 

 

@Sothron, you are another bro. My favorite poster. We will die disagreeing on Kevin Love. Love is looking more like the player I told you he was. With that said, he is the perfect fit offensively for Bud's system but we need a rim protecting center who can hedge if we were to ever acquire Love which you agreed about in the past. 

 

@Dolfan23, I honestly don't know why the hell you like Millsap so much. He ain't that good. He's a very good offensive player but he isn't that good. I don't see a scenario where I would like him over Horford. NONE. It's a mistake to take Sap over Horf. A horrible mistake and saying as we traded Lou for nothing, it would be even worse than that. At least HF was right. Numbers wise, Lou wasn't worth it for us. He was a net negative on D and on O he wasn't elite off the bench to overtake that. He was just above average on offense off the bench so he wasn't of use. Don't give me the ACL talk because he looked just as healthy during the 2nd half of last season. He just wasn't effective. He needs to play need to a big PG so he can play PG on defense and he's not a fit in a ball movement offense. He just wasn't a fit here. 

 

I have no issues trading him. It was the trade that bothered me. I hated trading Bebe and I didn't think a 2nd rounder was enough value. With that said, I would still trade him from what I saw last year and the year before when he got the injury. He was never impressive in a Hawks uni. 

 

We really need Horford at PF more than ever and we really need a player who can actually play center on offense to play next to him. No inept stretch 5's like Antić either. Real post players. Pekovic, Monroe, Brook Lopez, etc.

Edited November 28, 2014 by nbasupes40retired

[DS17Fanboy]

I agree with Horford being undervalued. He is much like Tim "Big Fundamental" Duncan, a high BBIQ guy who should fit this San Antonio lite system very well when being under the right circumstances. Circumstances that still are worked on. No way Bud and Ferry would think the buck stops where the roster is at right now. They are trying to create a franchise-culture where the right fits dont have to be allstar free agents seeing the Hawks chronical FA problems. And I view Horford as an integral corner-stone of that culture needing his type of fundamental-play.

 

Look at how many no-name players san-antonio uplifted. Or the Mavs culture for that matter with Brenden Wright and Monta Ellis. Players of a caliber also the Hawks could attract, but in order for them to become productive they need a sound system and corner-stones who make up that system.

[NBASupes]

I agree with Horford being undervalued. He is much like Tim "Big Fundamental" Duncan, a high BBIQ guy who should fit this San Antonio lite system very well when being under the right circumstances. Circumstances that still are worked on. No way Bud and Ferry would think the buck stops where the roster is at right now. They are trying to create a franchise-culture where the right fits dont have to be allstar free agents seeing the Hawks chronical FA problems. And I view Horford as an integral corner-stone of that culture needing his type of fundamental-play.

 

Look at how many no-name players san-antonio uplifted. Or the Mavs culture for that matter with Brenden Wright and Monta Ellis. Players of a caliber also the Hawks could attract, but in order for them to become productive they need a sound system and corner-stones who make up that system.

If we gave out awards, you would be the rookie of the year as a poster. And while I don't agree with the Duncan accolades, I will say that Horford is one of the most undervalued players in the NBA. In a perfect ideal situation, he could be great and even without it he has been very good to say the least. He is a player you build with. Maybe not around unless you are going to do it the right way which the Hawks haven't yet.

 

Tim Duncan is a player who is very good or elite at everything with elite measurables. He can do everything. Be an anchor on defense, a scorer, a shooter, communicator and distributor. One of the best players I have seen since the start of the NBA.

[Diesel]

I agree with Horford being undervalued. He is much like Tim "Big Fundamental" Duncan, a high BBIQ guy who should fit this San Antonio lite system very well when being under the right circumstances. Circumstances that still are worked on. No way Bud and Ferry would think the buck stops where the roster is at right now. They are trying to create a franchise-culture where the right fits dont have to be allstar free agents seeing the Hawks chronical FA problems. And I view Horford as an integral corner-stone of that culture needing his type of fundamental-play.

 

Look at how many no-name players san-antonio uplifted. Or the Mavs culture for that matter with Brenden Wright and Monta Ellis. Players of a caliber also the Hawks could attract, but in order for them to become productive they need a sound system and corner-stones who make up that system.

 

 

What part of Horford's game is like Tim Duncan's?  Can Horford Dominate the game with his back to the basket? Is Horford a passer out of the double team like Duncan?  Can Horford's defense and rebounding dominate the defensive floor? Horford is no Tim Duncan.  I think we have taken this whole idea of now that Bud is here all of our players fit in the San Antonio scheme.  Duncan doesn't need his PG to make him look good. Horford does.   Horford needs a PNR.  Prior to Bud, the similarity was that Horf was a Poor poor man's Karl Malone.  However, I don't think that's so relevant. What is relevant is that we need to figure out how to make him and Sap work better together otherwise we need to get a need for one of them.  I like this draft.   It should be filled with young bigs who are ready to contribute soon.  I don't mind trading one or the other but I would be lying if I said that Horf's injuries and his upcoming contract and the fact that no Hawk GM has given him what he wants gives me a place to pause.

 

To the topic... Horford vs. Milsap...   I think what we should really watch this season is the maturation of Scott. That will be telling for this team also.

[NBASupes]

What part of Horford's game is like Tim Duncan's?  Can Horford Dominate the game with his back to the basket? Is Horford a passer out of the double team like Duncan?  Can Horford's defense and rebounding dominate the defensive floor? Horford is no Tim Duncan.  I think we have taken this whole idea of now that Bud is here all of our players fit in the San Antonio scheme.  Duncan doesn't need his PG to make him look good. Horford does.   Horford needs a PNR.  Prior to Bud, the similarity was that Horf was a Poor poor man's Karl Malone.  However, I don't think that's so relevant. What is relevant is that we need to figure out how to make him and Sap work better together otherwise we need to get a need for one of them.  I like this draft.   It should be filled with young bigs who are ready to contribute soon.  I don't mind trading one or the other but I would be lying if I said that Horf's injuries and his upcoming contract and the fact that no Hawk GM has given him what he wants gives me a place to pause.

 

To the topic... Horford vs. Milsap...   I think what we should really watch this season is the maturation of Scott. That will be telling for this team also.

Poor man's Karl Malone?

 

 

 

Teague's ability to read the screen was laughable last year. He really has improved his feel for the game this year. With that said, Al will never draw fouls or have the aggressiveness on offense like Malone has which @Hotlanta1981 is right about. But Horford defensive effect and versatility is better than the Mailman's. With that said, it's hard to compare since one team consistently misuses one and the other constantly build around the other's strengths.

[Afro]

Legit question. Are YOU Al Horford?

[Randy]

I'm a what have you done for me lately fan.  Its whoever played best in the last game.

[benhillboy]

Al and Sap would get a kick out of reading this. Supes and Dol may have a future being these guys' agents, respectively.

Both are fine, smart players and class acts. Even The Incomparable Wardell Curry has flaws in his game. By Christmas we should be able to see something more definitive as far as where we're headed with the frontcourt based on fit and how close Al is to his AS form of 20 and 11. Payne and Moose (small sample I know, but PER 24) have played a total of 33 minutes through 13 games. I'm not surprised they haven't contributed, slightly disappointed though.

Edited November 28, 2014 by benhillboy

[Plainview1981]

What part of Horford's game is like Tim Duncan's?  Can Horford Dominate the game with his back to the basket? Is Horford a passer out of the double team like Duncan?  Can Horford's defense and rebounding dominate the defensive floor? Horford is no Tim Duncan.  I think we have taken this whole idea of now that Bud is here all of our players fit in the San Antonio scheme.  Duncan doesn't need his PG to make him look good. Horford does.   Horford needs a PNR.  Prior to Bud, the similarity was that Horf was a Poor poor man's Karl Malone.  However, I don't think that's so relevant. What is relevant is that we need to figure out how to make him and Sap work better together otherwise we need to get a need for one of them.  I like this draft.   It should be filled with young bigs who are ready to contribute soon.  I don't mind trading one or the other but I would be lying if I said that Horf's injuries and his upcoming contract and the fact that no Hawk GM has given him what he wants gives me a place to pause.

 

To the topic... Horford vs. Milsap...   I think what we should really watch this season is the maturation of Scott. That will be telling for this team also.

 

I think he Scott is what he is now... A scoring option off the bench.

 

His defense might be a tad better, but he is still bad.... And his rebounding seems terrible.

 

Hopefully Payne can bring some rebounding to the team.

[NBASupes]

I think he Scott is what he is now... A scoring option off the bench.

 

His defense might be a tad better, but he is still bad.... And his rebounding seems terrible.

 

Hopefully Payne can bring some rebounding to the team.

Payne seemed like a solid rebounder in SL but didn't seem like he was as good or better at it than Sap or Horf from a skill standpoint. I agree with you on Scott. He's like a forward but can't really defend anyone. Very good shooter but steaky. I like his athletic ability. He is like a better shooter worse defensively version of Brandon Bass. I think he's a SF. He seems to do the best at that position on offense and he's terrible at defense either way.

 

Payne probably doesn't have the system down yet to be useful for us so our depth at PF isn't a strength right now. Another stretch four could be useful.

[NBASupes]

Sap best recent scoring outing v. Jazz(Favors/Kanter):

 

 

Al's v. Hornets (Jefferson/Zeller) TOR vid not available:

 

Edited November 28, 2014 by nbasupes40retired

[DS17Fanboy]

What part of Horford's game is like Tim Duncan's?  Can Horford Dominate the game with his back to the basket? Is Horford a passer out of the double team like Duncan?  Can Horford's defense and rebounding dominate the defensive floor? Horford is no Tim Duncan.  I think we have taken this whole idea of now that Bud is here all of our players fit in the San Antonio scheme.  Duncan doesn't need his PG to make him look good. Horford does.   Horford needs a PNR.  Prior to Bud, the similarity was that Horf was a Poor poor man's Karl Malone.  However, I don't think that's so relevant. What is relevant is that we need to figure out how to make him and Sap work better together otherwise we need to get a need for one of them.  I like this draft.   It should be filled with young bigs who are ready to contribute soon.  I don't mind trading one or the other but I would be lying if I said that Horf's injuries and his upcoming contract and the fact that no Hawk GM has given him what he wants gives me a place to pause.

 

To the topic... Horford vs. Milsap...   I think what we should really watch this season is the maturation of Scott. That will be telling for this team also.

What part? The things that make Horford undevalued. Things that often are not reflected in stats. The "fundamentals". How to think two steps ahead, also for others, and have the ability to position oneself accordingly.

 

Thats indeed about it. I never said he's Tim Duncan. I said that in this regard he's like the "Big Fundamental" in at least having great portions of that type of talent.

 

Therefore hes undervalued when comparing mere stats with Millsap etc. And much more because he could be a great fit in the system they are trying to build.

Edited November 28, 2014 by DS17Fanboy

[DS17Fanboy]

That being said he's elite on defensive switches on an undersized team with Kyle Korver. On offense he's a quick passer and notoriously not out for own glory.

 

And people look at how many rebounds  and points he has playing out of position and after a srs long-time injury.

Edited November 28, 2014 by DS17Fanboy

[BrazilianHawk]

Supes... Let me tell you something.

 

YOU'RE EFFIN' CRAZY, MAN.

 

When you come with "Millsap is not that good." I have to think either you're drunk or you're crazy.

 

Both Al and Paul are invaluable to this team. Both are great players. None is a superstar.

 

Al is not Malone, just like a wombat is a not bear, a kangaroo is not a giraffe and an armadillo is not a goat.

 

C'mon, now...

[NBASupes]

Undersized is relative. Do you recall in the playoffs that defensively we match 6'8 Millsap against 7'2 Hibbert and he pretty much held his own because Sap is solid and has strength. I love Al but my biggest knock against him is that regardless of what position he wants to play he never really put on solid muscle in his time here. He got up to 250 a whole 5lbs more than he was drafted at and that was it now he has deflated to what looks like 240 and obviously he is suffering on the glass. I get the whole "box out" team rebounding thing most folks have been perpetuating but the truth is, Al is not playing tough right now. Im sure it is because of the pec so I dont hate him for it but with any big regardless if you play PF or C, I expect you to play big. Be tough down low. Height and weight have nothing to do with heart.

About the handles, it does matter to bigs as it relates to improving your position. And considering Al is faster than most of the guys he faces it would make life easier for him if he could face them up and get to the rim because attempting to back them down doesnt always work. And if Al is really a "true PF" like many have always claimed then in todays NBA having handles matters quite a bit as the best PFs all can put in on the floor and improve position or at least draw a double team or pick up fouls.

This isnt a Horf vs Sap debate either. I just feel that Al could learn a lot from Saps post offense. We havent had a guy with post moves like Sap on our team in a while not since JJ honestly (different position I know but JJ could post up and finish)

Sap is 253 compared to Al's 242. Sap should play center now since he's bigger. Al's all upper body, his legs aren't big at all. Sap has tree trunks. Sap should be center since "size is relative." Al has always been the size of a PF. He has always been that. He wasn't a liability at it with Smoove because Smoove is a great weak side defender and he's great at getting slick steals from centers who are posting up on Al but Sap isn't that. Sap usually sticks to his man or crashes the paint when someone is slashing and he gets steals that way. Al is plenty powerful for a PF but for a center, he's not an ox at that position. What Al is doing is vital when you consider how small we are as an unit.

 

Horford can put the ball on the floor. He has and still does that. He doesn't have the handles to consistently beat you off the dribble. He doesn't need it for his type of PF. He is a movement PF. Sap really doesn't need it either since he is an all around offensive PF with range but it can come handy at times.

[AHF]

Poor man's Karl Malone?

 

 

 

Teague's ability to read the screen was laughable last year. He really has improved his feel for the game this year. With that said, Al will never draw fouls or have the aggressiveness on offense like Malone has which @Hotlanta1981 is right about. But Horford defensive effect and versatility is better than the Mailman's. With that said, it's hard to compare since one team consistently misuses one and the other constantly build around the other's strengths.

 

Yes.  That highlight reel game you cherrypicked from a prior season (Al's age 27 season) is not far off from Malone's season average at the same age.

 

Malone Age 27 Average

29.0 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.0 bpg

 

Malone had 19 games with that many rebounds that season and 20 games with that many points.  Horford did not have a single game where he equaled his 34 points any time that season and had only 2 games where he equaled or bettered the rebounds.  In fact, if you compare Malone's single season to the cumulative totals of Al's 2011-12, 2012-13, 2013-14, and 2014-15 seasons you see:

 

Malone 20 games with 34 or more points in his age 27 season

Al 2 games with 34 or more points in his age 25, 26, 27 and 28 seasons 

 

Malone 19 games with 15 or more rebounds in his age 27 season

Al 8 games with 15 or more rebounds in his age 25, 26, 27 and 28 seasons

 

So, yeah, poor man's Karl Malone.

[RedDawg#8]

Sap is 253 compared to Al's 242. Sap should play center now since he's bigger. Al's all upper body, his legs aren't big at all. Sap has tree trunks. Sap should be center since "size is relative." Al has always been the size of a PF. He has always been that. He wasn't a liability at it with Smoove because Smoove is a great weak side defender and he's great at getting slick steals from centers who are posting up on Al but Sap isn't that. Sap usually sticks to his man or crashes the paint when someone is slashing and he gets steals that way. Al is plenty powerful for a PF but for a center, he's not an ox at that position. What Al is doing is vital when you consider how small we are as an unit.

Horford can put the ball on the floor. He has and still does that. He doesn't have the handles to consistently beat you off the dribble. He doesn't need it for his type of PF. He is a movement PF. Sap really doesn't need it either since he is an all around offensive PF with range but it can come handy at times.

Horf can put the ball on the floor in the open court or when there is an open driving lane to the basket usually off a pick a roll situation. But when he posts up he cannot improve position unless he is able to back down his guy. He does not have the same confidence putting the ball on the floor as Sap does and that fact alone is why we should stop with the Al is a true PF debate because he is not. In todays NBA the best PFs can create their own offense especially down low. As another poster mentioned Als offense depends a lot on the PG creating for him AND THATS NOT A BAD THING it just means that we need to accept his strengths and weaknesses. Al has always been a player that plays off his teamates back to his days at UF. The only development in his game has been a lethal mid range jumpshot. If Al ever developed a post game he might be an elite player. Millsap on the other hand DOES NOT have the same elite physical potential as Al yet he finds a way to continue developing different aspects of his game. He is now a guy that not only plays off his teamates well but you can dump him the ball down low or outside and say "make something happen" and he will more than likely create a positve play for you. He is very underrated in that aspect. He has gotten so good with the ball that there are times I can see him at SF because of his quickness but I know ultimately it would not work just as Al would not work at PF long term. You put Al next to a TRUE center and our effeciency on offense would go in the gutter.

Sap is 253 compared to Al's 242. Sap should play center now since he's bigger. Al's all upper body, his legs aren't big at all. Sap has tree trunks. Sap should be center since "size is relative." Al has always been the size of a PF. He has always been that. He wasn't a liability at it with Smoove because Smoove is a great weak side defender and he's great at getting slick steals from centers who are posting up on Al but Sap isn't that. Sap usually sticks to his man or crashes the paint when someone is slashing and he gets steals that way. Al is plenty powerful for a PF but for a center, he's not an ox at that position. What Al is doing is vital when you consider how small we are as an unit.

Horford can put the ball on the floor. He has and still does that. He doesn't have the handles to consistently beat you off the dribble. He doesn't need it for his type of PF. He is a movement PF. Sap really doesn't need it either since he is an all around offensive PF with range but it can come handy at times.

Horf can put the ball on the floor in the open court or when there is an open driving lane to the basket usually off a pick a roll situation. But when he posts up he cannot improve position unless he is able to back down his guy. He does not have the same confidence putting the ball on the floor as Sap does and that fact alone is why we should stop with the Al is a true PF debate because he is not. In todays NBA the best PFs can create their own offense especially down low. As another poster mentioned Als offense depends a lot on the PG creating for him AND THATS NOT A BAD THING it just means that we need to accept his strengths and weaknesses. Al has always been a player that plays off his teamates back to his days at UF. The only development in his game has been a lethal mid range jumpshot. If Al ever developed a post game he might be an elite player. Millsap on the other hand DOES NOT have the same elite physical potential as Al yet he finds a way to continue developing different aspects of his game. He is now a guy that not only plays off his teamates well but you can dump him the ball down low or outside and say "make something happen" and he will more than likely create a positve play for you. He is very underrated in that aspect. He has gotten so good with the ball that there are times I can see him at SF because of his quickness but I know ultimately it would not work just as Al would not work at PF long term. You put Al next to a TRUE center and our effeciency on offense would go in the gutter.

[DS17Fanboy]

Does Al Horford have a better post-up game than lets say David West, Nene? I think so.

 

Do the Hawks play allot of post-ups? No.

 

Can Millsap of the dribble combining SF and PF abilities post himself up in allot of situations? Yes he can.

 

Would the Hawks be able to post-up Al Horford in case he has to play the 4 and with Millsap gone? Yes, and it would slow the game down, but at a trade-off of whoever gets to play center with us, we would be allot stronger at the rim. And I think its fair to say that a more scoring SF or/and C would be needed in that case.

 

Which imo would be more ideal. I think Millsap and Carrol where Notlösungen as we call it in Germany(solutions born out of necessity), for the next 1-2 years when they where signed, which both worked out better than expected, but I think this roster has allot more potential to be a contending team, and I think Millsap is a more interchangable type of player than Horford is. Like also Supe expanded on.

 

Which ATM is a hard argument to sell with Horford playing out of position, often on his own regarding the 2 bigs, coming off an injury, and Millsap putting up stats(which hint: add to a nice trade-value ATM).

Edited December 1, 2014 by DS17Fanboy