The Hawks bench was very overrated offensively

[Lurker]

I was going to let the PG situation go completely, but then I remembered something that one NBA analyst said at the start of the 15/16 about the Hawks (this isn't word for word):

"A lot of their possible lineup combinations just aren't going to be a positive factor for them on the court no matter what a coach does. They will have lineup combinations that can score at will, but have trouble stopping anybody and then they will have lineup combinations that are lockdown defensively but can't score at all."

Believe it or not, this NBA analyst was 100% correct, word for word. There was trouble finding more than one or two lineup combinations that clicked together on the court well into the season, it lasted really all the way into late February.

Here's an example of a lineup from earlier in the season that would have trouble scoring much no matter if a PG was being "very unselfish" or not:

Schröder/Patterson/Sefolosha/Millsap/Splitter

The harsh reality is, if you replace Schröder with the "very unselfish" Mack here, it doesn't change the offensive results! There are only three options here offensively that would work. Let whichever PG is in and Millsap create one on one, a simple drive and kick for open threes, or PNR to get Splitter a layup. That's it. Any other option is not very good.

Here's a later example of a lineup that would have trouble that was often used:

Teague/Bazemore/Sefolosha/Millsap/Horford

Korver, the guy that can't create on offense to save his life is out! That means this lineup should be great, right? Except it was FAR from great! This lineup saw a lot of packed paints and not good results when it was used. Every time a Bazemore and Sefolosha lineup was gone to, opposing teams would go on runs because of help from so many bricked open jumpers that the team had to take as they had no other option offensively as the inside was walled off.

To get a bit more positive here's one good lineup from this season:

Schröder/Hardaway Jr/Sefolosha/Scott/Horford

All bench except for Horford. This was a lineup that was very effective as the team would often play free and easy with it. This was the lineup that ran a lot of fast breaks and thanks to Scott, the half court offense had plenty of spacing.

This all goes to say...(to be continued)

[Lurker]

This exposes two things dead red:

1. Thabo Sefolosha starting instead of Kyle Korver is not the answer. Kyle Korver can not start next season but an effort made to find an out of house alternative will have to be made. Save me the bull about analytics, I don't care. There is no playoff team that Kyle Korver can start against and be effective.

2. It didn't matter which point guard it was from the Hawks. If they were coming off the bench they would have often been thrust into a look to score situation in the 15/16 season as there would often be times where they'd come in and instantly be the 2nd best option on offense.

[NBASupes]

Lurker, how did you come to this opinion. From all measures, Dennis was critical to our bench. Mack wasn't. Also, our bench was one of the best during the regular season. I am not seeing where you are coming from 

[Thomas]

8 hours ago, Lurker said:

To get a bit more positive here's one good lineup from this season:

Schröder/Hardaway Jr/Sefolosha/Scott/Horford

All bench except for Horford. This was a lineup that was very effective as the team would often play free and easy with it. This was the lineup that ran a lot of fast breaks and thanks to Scott, the half court offense had plenty of spacing.

Very interesting this lineup was so successful. Pretty fleet squad even with Scott out there. Dennis, Thabo and Al are all strong defensively as well. 

[macdaddy]

It makes sense.   I called for Baze / Thabo to be the starters a lot but Bud isn't an idiot.  There had to be a reason he wasn't doing it.     Hopefully Hardaway can be that replacement for Korver in the starting lineup but it remains to be seen.   Scott had a good season.    It would be great if he could play the 3 but his defense and quickness would have to get a lot better and I just don't see that at this point.  

The Dennis/Tim/Thabo/Scott/Horford lineup was picked out somewhere else as one of our most effective.   When you look at it though it makes a lot of sense.   You have 3 very good defenders at key positions,  you have guys who aren't afraid to try to score, and you have some physical mismatches most of the time.   It's a small lineup with quickness.     Of course, it's got to be a small sample size because i don't remember seeing that lineup much. 

I felt like Thabo didn't play well at times this season but I would still rather have him be a starter especially if we find someone who can score at the 2.   I think when he gets into a groove defensively it makes a huge difference and gives us more transition opportunities.  

[Lurker]

8 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Lurker, how did you come to this opinion. From all measures, Dennis was critical to our bench. Mack wasn't. Also, our bench was one of the best during the regular season. I am not seeing where you are coming from

This is NOT an indirect bashing of Dennis Schröder at all! It's a wayyyyyy too long TL;DR to pretty much say two things:

1. Schröder and Scott are the only good offensive players off of the bench.

2. The bench's impact was fine but it was mostly bad offensively and it was not bad because of a poor facilitator, it was bad because most of the bench is not good offensively.

Believe me, there are more people than you think that think while Schröder has more talent than Mack, that Mack is much more of a pure facilitator than him, very unselfish, and would have solved the problem the bench had offensively a lot of the time.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Lurker

[ViewsFromTheSquawk]

Screw it were blowing it up... New starting 5....

 

Schröder

Timmy

Sef

Scott

Horf

 

JK 

 

But tbh one of my favorite lineups was RARELY used last season which is...

 

Schröder

Teague

Sefolosha

Horford

Humphries

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

This is NOT an indirect bashing of Dennis Schröder at all! It's a wayyyyyy too long TL;DR to pretty much say two things:

1. Schröder and Scott are the only good offensive players off of the bench.

2. The bench's impact was fine but it was mostly bad offensively and it was not bad because of a poor facilitator, it was bad because most of the bench is not good offensively.

Believe me, there are more people than you think that think while Schröder has more talent than Mack, that Mack is much more of a pure facilitator than him, very unselfish, and would have solved the problem the bench had offensively a lot of the time.

Mack and Dennis were selfish. Teague was the only unselfish PG we had till we traded for Kirk

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Mack and Dennis were selfish. Teague was the only unselfish PG we had till we traded for Kirk

Kirk and Mack were both unselfish.  They took none of the minutes.

[Mdizzle5]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Mack and Dennis were selfish. Teague was the only unselfish PG we had till we traded for Kirk

To be fair, Teague also spent more time with more reliable scorers. Scott being the 2nd most consistent guy on the bench kind of says it all.