Is our new 1st round pick too old school?

[ATLien_]

2 minutes ago, hawkman said:

I can't agree with this enough. Collins has turnaround jumpers, hooks, floaters, and counter moves in the post. You add a decent midrange shot and high %FT shooter to those post skills and you have a potential offensive monster on your hands. He's a very agile big with explosive leaping ability AND a high motor on the glass. He will be our most skilled big on day one if Sap leaves. I don't see how the Hawks could have done any better.

You post made me think about his free throw rate. He's absolutely one of the best bigs in this draft at getting to the line. His free throw rate is off the charts. This team needs someone they can go to when jumpers aren't falling. Tired off having bigs that don't get to the line.

[Sothron]

Just now, kg01 said:

If Howard had his post offense, folks'd be saying "Shaq who?"

Wait, when you say "we" are you still talking Hawks or Twolves? (hehe)

Agree with your comments on post scoring.  Whatever the "modern" NBA folks say, post scoring is still important and there are fewer and fewer guys that can post-defend without simply fouling.

My Heat-fan BIL tried to convince me that Shaq couldn't play in the NBA today.  I just shook my head.

All of the real  low post scorers would dominate like we've never seen before in today's NBA. The hand check rules and freedom of ball movement actually HELP low post play by moving the double team away from the low post player and making it hard to stop their initial entry into the block.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Sothron said:

All of the real  low post scorers would dominate like we've never seen before in today's NBA. The hand check rules and freedom of ball movement actually HELP low post play by moving the double team away from the low post player and making it hard to stop their initial entry into the block.

Well, my BIL says for every dunk Shaq had, his man would be hitting 3's.  OMFG.  He went on to say that teams would just guard him with a guy like Richard Jefferson and as long as RJ scored like 15 points it would cancel out the 25 or so Shaq would score.

I'm thinking, Shaq would score 50 and RJ would foul out by the end of the 1st qtr.  Then I spaced out on the conversation.  Just ridic.

[ATLien_]

5 minutes ago, Sothron said:

All of the real  low post scorers would dominate like we've never seen before in today's NBA. The hand check rules and freedom of ball movement actually HELP low post play by moving the double team away from the low post player and making it hard to stop their initial entry into the block.

There are two types of players in the NBA. Those that can draw a double and those that can't. John has a chance to be one that can draw two. You want as many players that can draw two as possible. With Millsap gone we have none. Cavs have two and the warriors have two.

Edited June 23, 2017 by ATLien_

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Well, my BIL says for every dunk Shaq had, his man would be hitting 3's.  OMFG.  He went on to say that teams would just guard him with a guy like Richard Jefferson and as long as RJ scored like 15 points it would cancel out the 25 or so Shaq would score.

I'm thinking, Shaq would score 50 and RJ would foul out by the end of the 1st qtr.  Then I spaced out on the conversation.  Just ridic.

Wow.  He think RJ on Shaq would only result in 25 points?  What is he smoking?  Prime Shaq was a force of nature.  Best player in the league and should have had more MVPs.

11 minutes ago, Sothron said:

All of the real  low post scorers would dominate like we've never seen before in today's NBA. The hand check rules and freedom of ball movement actually HELP low post play by moving the double team away from the low post player and making it hard to stop their initial entry into the block.

The one thing I'll throw in as a counter is the fact that teams can now play zone and pack the paint.  They can sag multiple defenders on your post star - especially if he is as big a threat as Shaq or Hakeem would be.  Back in their primes, those guys could only be guarded by a single man and everyone else had to to stick to their man for fear of getting an illegal defense.  The elimination of those illegal defense rules has done more to transition the game away from post play than any other factor, IMO.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, AHF said:

Wow.  He think RJ on Shaq would only result in 25 points?  What is he smoking?  Prime Shaq was a force of nature.  Best player in the league and should have had more MVPs.

Welcome to my world, AH.  He cites Dwight's failure as evidence that Shaq would just be kinda meh nowadays.  SMH

He relies heavily on Stephan A Smith for his bball opinions too.  It's maddening.

[Sothron]

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

Wow.  He think RJ on Shaq would only result in 25 points?  What is he smoking?  Prime Shaq was a force of nature.  Best player in the league and should have had more MVPs.

The one thing I'll throw in as a counter is the fact that teams can now play zone and pack the paint.  They can sag multiple defenders on your post star - especially if he is as big a threat as Shaq or Hakeem would be.  Back in their primes, those guys could only be guarded by a single man and everyone else had to to stick to their man for fear of getting an illegal defense.  The elimination of those illegal defense rules has done more to transition the game away from post play than any other factor, IMO.

Yes, I agree with that but the counter argument is this: if you double that much to stop one low post player someone is open on the perimeter or as a cutter. There's no way a team could just zone double team all game long against a prime low post player because the open guys are going to make enough shots to kill you in the end.

[ATLien_]

13 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Yes, I agree with that but the counter argument is this: if you double that much to stop one low post player someone is open on the perimeter or as a cutter. There's no way a team could just zone double team all game long against a prime low post player because the open guys are going to make enough shots to kill you in the end.

Yea people doubling The Dream gave Kenny Smith a career and rings. Unfortunately it gave him a broadcast career too.

[JTB]

47 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

He's 19 with a post game and decent footwork - that's a good thing.  I think it's easier to improve on his already decent mid range jump shot, that it is to add a post game.  Extend his range to 15-18 feet, then out to the 3 eventually.

 

If he can be a versatile offensive player.  How's his handle.

That's a really excellent point and I didn't factor in his age or that most bigs that come into this league today  if not all never seem to learn a post game if they didn't already have a decent one to begin with.

i must say if he can develop a jumpshot (and I believe he can) we may see a versatile lethal scorer...not calling it a sure thing but yes Collins has the opportunity of being one of those type of players.

[Sothron]

27 minutes ago, JTB said:

That's a really excellent point and I didn't factor in his age or that most bigs that come into this league today  if not all never seem to learn a post game if they didn't already have a decent one to begin with.

i must say if he can develop a jumpshot (and I believe he can) we may see a versatile lethal scorer...not calling it a sure thing but yes Collins has the opportunity of being one of those type of players.

Typically if a guy can hit free throws at a decent rate they should be able to make 15-18 ft jump shots. Collins shot 75% at the FT line last season so I would say there's at least a good chance he can develop his jumper.

I hate to repeat myself but any concerns for Collins should be on the defensive end. His offensive game is light years ahead of his defense at this point.

[terrell]

After going through the likes of guys like Shellhead, Childress, Marvin, Jenkins, and Payne, I can live with the pick..At least he has upside. Unlike the before mentioned..

[Sothron]

I am tossing another player comparison for Collins: our old hawk, one of my favorites....SAR. Collins has a similar offensive game but is really behind SAR on defense.

[DeacKillsaDevil]

Having watched John Collins for 2 years, I think he will continue to developer and expand his game. His FT % is good so he can shoot at least from midrange

 

 

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After going through the likes of guys like Shellhead, Childress, Marvin, Jenkins, and Payne, I can live with the pick..At least he has upside. Unlike the before mentioned..

 

Everyone thought got Marvin had upside. We were just wrong.

 

 

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[GameTime]

Dennis and John Collins need to be in the gym now working the PnR. I want them in sync like Nash was with Amare. Dennis has no excuses anymore to why he isn't good at the PnR. Collins is elite at that skill.

[Lurker]

Dennis has been fine in PNR with any big that is not named Dwight Howard.

[TheFuzz]

I honestly don't think he'll be all that great on the block, he'll take advantage of mismatches especially at the 4 but what I'm excited for is his PNR game, which is super new-school. If he screen and rolls the way he showed in college he'll be good there, especially if he learns to pop.

[Watchman]

He plays an inside low post game.  He'll be following Howard out the back door within a couple of years.  Evidently that is not a part of the "modern" NBA.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Watchman said:

He plays an inside low post game.  He'll be following Howard out the back door within a couple of years.  Evidently that is not a part of the "modern" NBA.

Kid at 19 has a better post  game and better footwork than Howard ever had,

[Watchman]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

Kid at 19 has a better post  game and better footwork than Howard ever had,

Unless he can develop a three point shot, he's not long for this league.

[Lurker]

There is a difference between Howard and Collins, and it's sad, but Collins post game is night and day better...as a 19 year old and he's probably actually willing to play PNR instead of worrying about posting up.

There is more to it with Howard than just "he can't shoot jumpers". It's more like "Howard is not a reliable offensive threat at all unless he gets hand fed because his post moves are so sad".

It has nothing to do with who is and isn't PG. Stop stanning for Howard. He's not good.