Why did John Collins fall in the draft?

[capstone21]

You don't put stock into summer league play ... it is glorified playground ball ... 

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Y'all got to let that Dion Glover sh-t go. Dion looked nothing like Collins in summer league.  I don't even think Dion shot a high percentage and plus wasn't that summer like his 3rd summer league and he was 23??? Lol, I know y'all want to be negative about this team forever but stop the ridiculous comparisons

bs

[Peoriabird]

18 minutes ago, Diesel said:

bs

What do you mean?  Dion won MVP of the pro-am summer league in Boston averaging 17.8 points per game at the age of 23 soon to be 24 in October of that same year.  It was his 3rd Summer league year.

http://www.nba.com/news/summerleagues2002.html

[skimaskway23]

14 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

What do you mean?

His sodium levels are at an all time high. Salty we're moving on from dwight and rebuilding around the pg he hates 

[Peoriabird]

Just now, skimaskway23 said:

His sodium levels are at an all time high. Salty we're moving on from dwight and rebuilding around the pg he hates 

Careful, you don't want to wake the Lurker!

[DBac]

Really can't take a ton away from summer league numbers. KAT and Dwight were both around 40% shooting and they're both way more efficient in the NBA. 

Another factor is that we don't know what these guys are going out there to accomplish. TP said he's going out there to work on his weaknesses, so his numbers are pretty awful. Some guys might just be going out there to get buckets. 

JC has flashed some nice skills though.. and that's what its mostly important to look for. Hit some tough jumpers and his interior passing has been really nice. His athleticism is freaky too. 

 

[Diesel]

23 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

What do you mean?  Dion won MVP of the pro-am summer league in Boston averaging 17.8 points per game at the age of 23 soon to be 24 in October of that same year.  It was his 3rd Summer league year.

http://www.nba.com/news/summerleagues2002.html

I know.  Dion Glover was great.  Jordanesque... In Summmer League.  I said BS to the person who tried to downplay him as if he were inefficient or something. 

[Peoriabird]

Just now, Diesel said:

I know.  Dion Glover was great.  Jordanesque... In Summmer League.  I said BS to the person who tried to downplay him as if he were inefficient or something. 

You are missing the point!!!  He was damn near 24 at the time.  His first stints in summer league were disastrous.

[capstone21]

I think the point is you cant judge a summer league performance to determine if a player is going to have a good career or not.  

[Diesel]

16 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

You are missing the point!!!  He was damn near 24 at the time.  His first stints in summer league were disastrous.

That's not true...  I don't think Glover ever had a bad Summer League.  IN fact...

From 7-25-2000... 

Quote

Atlanta Hawks (played in Atlanta and Boston summer leagues)
Point Jason Terry (4.5 assists in Boston), center Lorenzen Wright (15 ppg in Boston) and guard Dion Glover (15.7 ppg in Boston) were the feature players for the Hawks. Scouts said Terry ran the team exceptionally well but was too offensive-minded at times. Wright rebounded well and Glover had his moments as a slasher, driver and selective shooter. Top pick DerMarr Johnson had decent shooting numbers, but showed he needs to get more consistent and stronger in his upper body. He has the catch-and-shoot down but his defense needs work and the diversity in his repertoire could continue. Second-round pick Hanno Mottola shot well in Atlanta but seemed to hit a wall in Boston (2 for 10 in one game) as his percentages dropped. Second-round pick Scoonie Penn played within his limitations and should be Terry's backup.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

His resume is more than just his summer league stats.  Dude led the nation in per last year...Oh that probably doesn't count either since he is a Hawk now.  My Bad

You know this fan base cares little about PER. Dwight led us in PER last season.

[gurpilo]

Summer league always favors Guard's game, Glover was a scorer and did his thing, fine. That does not mean his game will translate to NBA.

Collins is a different history, normally when a rookie big at that age shines in his first summer league he plays well at NBA, some cases come to my mind. 

On the other hand I have serious doubts about Collins game translating to NBA, he has relied on athleticism and power to score on dunks, he can have more problems against superior competition, I see he is still a little skinny and has to bulk up.

Overall I see a player with similar game to Blake Griffin that needs to add strength and that can become a great piece for the Hawks. We will find by the middle of the season how he adapts against stronger competition. Very excited about this selection , great pick Hawks!!!

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, gurpilo said:

Summer league always favors Guard's game, Glover was a scorer and did his thing, fine. That does not mean his game will translate to NBA.

Collins is a different history, normally when a rookie big at that age shines in his first summer league he plays well at NBA, some cases come to my mind. 

On the other hand I have serious doubts about Collins game translating to NBA, he has relied on athleticism and power to score on dunks, he can have more problems against superior competition, I see he is still a little skinny and has to bulk up.

Overall I see a player with similar game to Blake Griffin that needs to add strength and that can become a great piece for the Hawks. We will find by the middle of the season how he adapts against stronger competition. Very excited about this selection , great pick Hawks!!!

2013 SL.

Malcolm Thomas, Thomas Robinson, and John Henson were the top Bigs. 

2014 SL

Janelle Benimon, Cole Aldrich, and Miles Plumlee were the top Bigs. 

2012 SL

Malcolm Thomas, Markieff Morris, and Thomas Robinson were the top Bigs. 

I contend that there is nothing special about dominating a Summerleague game.  It's a glorified Pickup game.   Guys are trying to make a team and they normally are seen doing too much. 

[Peoriabird]

23 minutes ago, Diesel said:

2013 SL.

Malcolm Thomas, Thomas Robinson, and John Henson were the top Bigs. 

2014 SL

Janelle Benimon, Cole Aldrich, and Miles Plumlee were the top Bigs. 

2012 SL

Malcolm Thomas, Markieff Morris, and Thomas Robinson were the top Bigs. 

I contend that there is nothing special about dominating a Summerleague game.  It's a glorified Pickup game.   Guys are trying to make a team and they normally are seen doing too much. 

I don't know what your motivation is to report fake news to down play Hawk players but something is motivating you to continue to compare apples and oranges...All of the players you mentioned were not 1st year summer league players like Collin.  You even posted stats for Glover in his second year in a 4 team pro-am league 15 years ago.  If you don't like Collins and don't think that he will amount to much then just say it.  Stop trying to influence other people's opinions with your alternative facts.

[AHF]

10 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Saying that the above 3 player's (GRIII, Tyrus Jones, and Kyle Anderson) 1st summer league experience was similar to Collin.  That was simply not true and the only thing I can conclude is that there is some type of agenda against Hawks players.  Usually a fan base and writers build up a team and it potential star player but not Atlanta.  Fans here do the total opposite which is getting old.

NO ONE SAID ANY OF THOSE PLAYERS WERE SIMILAR TO COLLINS ONLY THAT SUMMER LEAGUE STATS DONT MEAN BOLLOCKS.

Not sure I can be less subtle on this.

I am very excited about Collins but using 3 summer league games to set expectations is a bad way of evaluating because the unstructured summer league isn't reflective of the NBA game at all.

[AHF]

8 hours ago, capstone21 said:

I think the point is you cant judge a summer league performance to determine if a player is going to have a good career or not.  

Yes.

39 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I contend that there is nothing special about dominating a Summerleague game.  It's a glorified Pickup game.   Guys are trying to make a team and they normally are seen doing too much. 

Yes.

How is this message translating into "Collins sucks!"?  Collins could be a future All-NBA player.  We just won't know it from summer league performance.

[Peoriabird]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

Yes.

Yes.

How is this message translating into "Collins sucks!"?  Collins could be a future All-NBA player.  We just won't know it from summer league performance.

No one stated that anyone said that John Collins will suck...The only thing that has been pointed out is the amount of time and effort spent to discredit his performance in summer league by bring up example of players that are not comparable.  If your lottery pick son was tearing it up in summer league and someone complimented him on HS, Your response would be positive not "well it doesn't mean anything" because there are examples of older more experienced players that have performed just as well as my son in the past. I know we have a broken culture here but man, can we get excited about our own for a change?  And I'm not referring to you specifically so be offended.

[gurpilo]

hace 36 minutos, Peoriabird dijo:

I don't know what your motivation is to report fake news to down play Hawk players but something is motivating you to continue to compare apples and oranges...All of the players you mentioned were not 1st year summer league players like Collin.  You even posted stats for Glover in his second year in a 4 team pro-am league 15 years ago.  If you don't like Collins and don't think that he will amount to much then just say it.  Stop trying to influence other people's opinions with your alternative facts.

Exactly, I was refering to rookies at SL, not even a single game at NBA level, not more polished players.

I remember significant impact on Howard, Okafor, Drummond, Green, KAT.... Probably more others.... My point is that is not so easy for a 19 year old big to shine on his first appearance at SL, when that happens normally is a good sign of what is coming, that was just my point. Big fails at draft at PF and C had mediocre SL appearances first year as Kwame Brown for example...

[AHF]

Tim Duncan struggled in summer league too.  It is JV pickup ball.  

I'm 100% more excited about what I've seen from Collins on tape from his college games, his athletic testing and the nation leading PER in the ACC.

Im enjoying the summer league stuff but you have to take it with a huge grain of salt.  That isn't being negative on Collins.  It is being realistic on what summer leagues mean.

[hazer]

You don't even need to look at stats or wins, Collins is dominating the eye test out there.