Anti-tank-thread

[StephenHawking]

To all the anti-tank members on this forum. 

I have two questions for you.

What would you have done after last season and how would your roster look in 3 years?

Edited November 13, 2017 by StephenHawking

[Lurker]

Well I know what one answer would be and it's so predictable. He hates the Hawks for essentially firing Danny Ferry and if he could have gone back in time, he would have told the co owners to screw off and given Danny Ferry the crown of the king.

[DBac]

This can go in the tank thread tbh. It's basically both

[StephenHawking]

vor einer Stunde, DBac sagte:

This can go in the tank thread tbh. It's basically both

Its just too much traffic over there. And they keep denying everything associated with tanking but on the other hand won't give any solutions. I simply wanted to confront them here where it's not as easy to avoid the question 

[StephenHawking]

vor einer Stunde, Lurker sagte:

Well I know what one answer would be and it's so predictable. He hates the Hawks for essentially firing Danny Ferry and if he could have gone back in time, he would have told the co owners to screw off and given Danny Ferry the crown of the king.

The thing is they pretty much blame Schlenk for everything going on. Like come on. Schlenk is doing the best thing he possibly can do in this situation. The faults were made before he was here.

[Lurker]

5 minutes ago, StephenHawking said:

The thing is they pretty much blame Schlenk for everything going on. Like come on. Schlenk is doing the best thing he possibly can do in this situation. The faults were made before he was here.

If you really want to blame it on someone, blame it on the people that got Danny Ferry shoved out because they got mad at him for saying that someone looked "African American like". BudCox failed. It's not Travis Schlenk's fault that Malcolm Delaney is here. It's not Travis Schlenk's fault that Kent Bazemore is a horrendous, unmovable contract. Maybe it is Travis Schlenk's fault for wasting a good second round pick with trading Dwight Howard instead of just telling coach to put him on the bench and for not at least giving it a whirl with Paul Millsap and trading him if it doesn't look great.

[StephenHawking]

Just now, Lurker sagte:

If you really want to blame it on someone, blame it on the people that got Danny Ferry shoved out because they got mad at him for saying that someone looked "African American like". BudCox failed. It's not Travis Schlenk's fault that Malcolm Delaney is here. It's not Travis Schlenk's fault that Kent Bazemore is a horrendous, unmovable contract. Maybe it is Travis Schlenk's fault for wasting a good second round pick with trading Dwight Howard instead of just telling coach to put him on the bench and for not at least giving it a whirl with Paul Millsap and trading him if it doesn't look great.

I'm pretty sure the trouble Howard would've caused would be bigger than the benefits of still having the 2nd rounder. 

On the Millsap situation. Honestly I rather have him off the cap sheet than giving him a not movable max contract which we later sit on if he doesnt perform 

[BrazilianHawk]

Here's what I would have done:

First and foremost, I would have re-signed our 4-time All-Star player who wanted to play for the Hawks. That would keep our best player in the roster and send a message to the league we are serious about winning and keeping the good players we have. Signing free agents would be easier this way. A good team with a commitment to a winning plan.

Second, I would try to unload Bazemore for nothing, even if I had to give some second round picks away. They probably tried to do that but couldn't because all the draft picks are now so precious. We wouldn't need them all if we still had a somewhat good team.

Third, I would get rid of the players who don't fit (Howard) and the ones who are easily replaceable and became too expensive (Timmy).

Fourth, you fill the holes with players nobody wants. Bud is actually good in doing this. Dedmon over Howard, Marco and Luke over Baze and Timmy... A much better shooting squad for a fraction of the cost.

 

We could easily have a squad consisting of

Dennis - Bembry - Scrub (IT?)

Marco - Delaney - Dorsey

Prince - Babbit - Scrub

Ilyasova - Collins - Muscala (or even any scrub)

Millsap - Dedmon - Plumlee

 

We would have a better team since last year we struggled with shooting and moving the ball. We would still be drafting in the teens and would actually be OK, since your "three pieces" came all from that range.

No need to gut the team or to tank. 

 

[Lurker]

Paul Millsap...starting center would not have worked out well at all. It worked every now and then but that would have really worn him down.

[BrazilianHawk]

14 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Paul Millsap...starting center would not have worked out well at all. It worked every now and then but that would have really worn him down.

Millsap - Ilyasova - Dedmon would all be interchangeable. Paul is listed at C because that's where he's at his best in offense. He wouldn't have to guard opposing Cs all the time.

[noble]

3 hours ago, BrazilianHawk said:

Here's what I would have done:

First and foremost, I would have re-signed our 4-time All-Star player who wanted to play for the Hawks. That would keep our best player in the roster and send a message to the league we are serious about winning and keeping the good players we have. Signing free agents would be easier this way. A good team with a commitment to a winning plan.

Second, I would try to unload Bazemore for nothing, even if I had to give some second round picks away. They probably tried to do that but couldn't because all the draft picks are now so precious. We wouldn't need them all if we still had a somewhat good team.

Third, I would get rid of the players who don't fit (Howard) and the ones who are easily replaceable and became too expensive (Timmy).

Fourth, you fill the holes with players nobody wants. Bud is actually good in doing this. Dedmon over Howard, Marco and Luke over Baze and Timmy... A much better shooting squad for a fraction of the cost.

 

We could easily have a squad consisting of

Dennis - Bembry - Scrub (IT?)

Marco - Delaney - Dorsey

Prince - Babbit - Scrub

Ilyasova - Collins - Muscala (or even any scrub)

Millsap - Dedmon - Plumlee

 

We would have a better team since last year we struggled with shooting and moving the ball. We would still be drafting in the teens and would actually be OK, since your "three pieces" came all from that range.

No need to gut the team or to tank. 

 

Biggest issue I have with this is, we tried this when Horford was here and we couldn't get free agents to come. We tried by adding Sap, and we STILL couldn't get players to come.

That roster would probably be a 5th or 6th seed. Not really a threat for a ring and it would take some serious injection of talent over the next few years to sniff the ECF let alone a ring. Since we couldn't sign real free agents I'm not sure how we could have done that.

I do see what you are thinking and that wouldn't be the worst roster I could see rolling out. But I am not sure it would have been sustainable or a viable threat. We probably would have picked middle of the draft again.

[Thomas]

Absolutely love Sap but 90 million is a lot of cash when our ceiling had already lowered winning just two games in the playoffs and Sap is already in his thirties. So I understand the lack of an offer and am good with it now even with the total lack of quality play late in games we keep witnessing.  

[KB21]

8 hours ago, noble said:

Biggest issue I have with this is, we tried this when Horford was here and we couldn't get free agents to come. We tried by adding Sap, and we STILL couldn't get players to come.

That roster would probably be a 5th or 6th seed. Not really a threat for a ring and it would take some serious injection of talent over the next few years to sniff the ECF let alone a ring. Since we couldn't sign real free agents I'm not sure how we could have done that.

I do see what you are thinking and that wouldn't be the worst roster I could see rolling out. But I am not sure it would have been sustainable or a viable threat. We probably would have picked middle of the draft again.

Yet somehow, you think some underdeveloped 19 year old with a limited skill level is going to attract a big time free agent?

[noble]

47 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Yet somehow, you think some underdeveloped 19 year old with a limited skill level is going to attract a big time free agent?

Nope, I don't think a 19 year old will work right away, but over a little bit of time. (ATL is hoping it falls in line with LeBron diminishing or gone) I think you need a superstar to get great players, which CAN lead to a ring, not just another playoff appearance. It may not happen for a few seasons, so be it. You win 30-40 next season and either be the 8th seed or barely miss the playoffs, well that is improvement.

I agree more than 2 seasons in a row of an absolute terrible Hawks team could break Mike down. I don't see it with one season as he knew what was coming before this season ever started. I think he said he would go with it for a year maybe two at the most.

But this isn't about what those okay with a rebuild attempt would like. This is about the Anti-Tank. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE OR RATHER HAD SEEN HAPPEN?

[KB21]

23 minutes ago, noble said:

Nope, I don't think a 19 year old will work right away, but over a little bit of time. (ATL is hoping it falls in line with LeBron diminishing or gone) I think you need a superstar to get great players, which CAN lead to a ring, not just another playoff appearance. It may not happen for a few seasons, so be it. You win 30-40 next season and either be the 8th seed or barely miss the playoffs, well that is improvement.

I agree more than 2 seasons in a row of an absolute terrible Hawks team could break Mike down. I don't see it with one season as he knew what was coming before this season ever started. I think he said he would go with it for a year maybe two at the most.

But this isn't about what those okay with a rebuild attempt would like. This is about the Anti-Tank. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE OR RATHER HAD SEEN HAPPEN?

1.  Resign Paul Millsap.  The deal he signed is essentially just a two year deal.  This would in no way hurt our financial flexibility over the next four years.

2.  Sit on Dwight's contract and use that pick traded to get Jawun Evans, who I think will eventually be a starting point guard in the NBA.

3.  Let THJ walk.

4.  Use "over the cap" exemptions to bring in veterans that can help the team compete and win now while developing the young guys on the roster (Prince, Bembry, Collins).  

[nathan2331]

 

 

1.  Resign Paul Millsap.  The deal he signed is essentially just a two year deal.  This would in no way hurt our financial flexibility over the next four years.

2.  Sit on Dwight's contract and use that pick traded to get Jawun Evans, who I think will eventually be a starting point guard in the NBA.

3.  Let THJ walk.

4.  Use "over the cap" exemptions to bring in veterans that can help the team compete and win now while developing the young guys on the roster (Prince, Bembry, Collins).  

 

So, waste another season not being a contending team, except we bow out in the first or second round of the playoffs and end up with another mid round pick. We've seen that season post play out the last 10 years, why continue when we already know how the story ends.

 

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[KB21]

4 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

 

So, waste another season not being a contending team, except we bow out in the first or second round of the playoffs and end up with another mid round pick. We've seen that season post play out the last 10 years, why continue when we already know how the story ends.

 

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Why commit to years of losing just to chase a star that will likely not actually be a true star?

[nathan2331]

Why commit to years of losing just to chase a star that will likely not actually be a true star?

Because, if we do manage to get a star then we'll be on our way towards building a contender.

 

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[rd79]

How many teams didn't get a chip despite drafting a star? (Okc drafted even three) And how many teams failed to draft a star despite picking deep in the lottery?

Tanking is a lottery and I don't see the chances much better than developing players in a winning environment like the Hawks were before two years... The only thing you know for sure while tanking is to see a lot of awful basketball and losses... A team with such a low fan support like the Hawks may even be moved if they draft some busts and this tank fails, to a place where fans are waiting desperately for a basketball team...

Edited November 14, 2017 by rd79

[thecampster]

What would I have done? In hindsight.

To answer this, you have to go back to "what you had". You had "a chance to sign THj". You had "a chance to sign Millsap". You had Dwight Howard on a 2 year contract.

1. I would have kept Dwight for 1 year. The Dwight contract becomes much more valuable and movable with 1 year left on on it, not 2. It would have been an expiring at the end of this season. The reason the value on Dwight's contract trade was so low is it had 2 years left on it. Anyone who doesn't understand 2 years of Dwight is better than 3 years of Plumlee just doesn't understand how contracts work.

2. I would have let Millsap walk without making the Crawford deal. The price tag was just too high.

3. I would have matched NY on THj. Timmy was/is younger than Baze and IMHO a much better mentor for Dorsey on how to adapt to the NBA game.

4. I would not have resigned Ersan (and this one would have hurt me to do) but effectively the combination of Ersan (rental), Plumlee (waste), Muscala (see below), Marco (rental), Crawford (to get a low 1st rounder) is $40 million in salary which would have been enough to keep Howard and Hardaway. In 1 year, that Howard expiring would become that same low 1st, high second draft pick to take someone else's longer contract and you'd still have Timmy. Anyone trying to say Ersan, Plumlee, Muscala, Marco, Crawford (2 of which have not or will play for the Hawks this year) is greater than Howard/Hardaway is smoking something more potent than Plumlee's weed.

5. I would have parted ways with Muscala and still signed Dedmon. 

6. Lastly, I would have found a buyer for Baze.  Teams called on Baze but the Hawks deemed the price too high. They valued their low 1st rounders too much of a price. If you have Tim, you don't need Baze.

In short, the roster difference could have been.

Back in: Howard (1 more year), THj + $17 million in salary cap space for signing free agents.

Out: Marco, Plumlee, Ersan, Muscala,Crawford, Baze and I really don't see how anyone can argue that the in would have been greater than the out in the short term or long term once you flip Howard's salary at season end.

And FYI, this is almost exactly what I said around Aug 1.