Lil Goldie is just like Teague but with far more aggression

[Peoriabird]

I have a headache reading through this thread because it is so goofy but it does bare repeating a fact previously stated. This team does not loose because of Dennis or the offense in general. The team looses because of poor 3 point defense and poor rebounding.

[Diesel]

6 hours ago, MaceCase said:

Hawks as a TEAM now 4th in the league in assists with Dennis as a leader, 6 spots better than last season.  Yea, whole lot of iso-non-Budball-lack-of-player-developement going on.

Dennis is at 6.8 apg.. then who is the next highest passer?  and the Next?

The funniest stat of them all concerning assist. 

As a team we put up 24.2 apg.   Our opponents put up 25.5 apg. 

Pace is something. 

 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, AHF said:

The opposite is true.  ISO play leads to an abundance of bad shots.  It is why Kobe was a terrible scorer when playing hero ball and a standout one when playing in the offense.  ISO play leading to bad shots is the main problem with ISO ball.  It would be great if it led to good shots since it lets you have more control over who shoots and leads to fewer turnovers.

Hero ball and Isoball are different.  Or At least I see it as different.   Hero ball is something that happens because of desperation (whether the end of the game or a player padding his stats).   Isoplay is by design.  IsoJoe was not Hero ball, it was by design that Joe would get the ball and the team would clear out and let him work against his man.   Heroball is more like we're down by four and I'm going to handle the ball every position. 

A great example is Isaiah Thomas last year.   He would distribute for 3 qtrs but the 4th qtr, his team had designed specifically for him to have his choice on how he wants to run the team.   Isoplay.   In the 4th qtr, they would go to a small lineup, the floor spacing would change and they played Isoball with Thomas.   It allowed him to dictate what he would do.  Would he PNR?  Would he PNP?  Would he Just Iso his man or pull up in the midrange.   His effeciency rose.  I'm sure that if you looked at his 4th qtr stats they are much better than his other 3qtr stats because while he was isolated with the ball, the defense had to respect him and his ability to iso and his teammates. 

It leads to more effecient play in most cases.   Not for Westbrook because he plays Isoball without the help of his team.  It's not really by design.   When Joe was here, his isoball was by design.  I used to joke about it being Joe, back... and to the left.  Meaning that he would get his man off balanced and he had spacing enough to move back and to the left to reset.

 

 

[NBASupes]

12 hours ago, AHF said:

If we draft Doncic, Dennis will need to develop his off the ball game as well. Teague struggled with that.  Westbrook is probably the worst in the league.

If Dennis buys into running some cuts, he could do well with it.

Dennis is worse off of the ball than Jeff. Dennis will always be an on-ball PG. This is the one part where I kinda agree with Diesel. Dennis lacks the versatility to be a complete guard and he's not a true PG to where it doesn't matter what he does off of the ball. 

 

I'll say this since Plumlee has been starting, the PnR has been more effective than with Dedmon who is a better player. 

[MaceCase]

28 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Dennis is at 6.8 apg.. then who is the next highest passer?  and the Next?

The funniest stat of them all concerning assist. 

As a team we put up 24.2 apg.   Our opponents put up 25.5 apg. 

Pace is something. 

 

Oh, you want to bring pace into the equation?  Okay, let’s control for that with the Hawks as a team being 4th in both assist percentage and assist ratio.  

#BudBall

[AHF]

41 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Hero ball and Isoball are different.  Or At least I see it as different.   Hero ball is something that happens because of desperation (whether the end of the game or a player padding his stats).   Isoplay is by design.  IsoJoe was not Hero ball, it was by design that Joe would get the ball and the team would clear out and let him work against his man.   Heroball is more like we're down by four and I'm going to handle the ball every position. 

A great example is Isaiah Thomas last year.   He would distribute for 3 qtrs but the 4th qtr, his team had designed specifically for him to have his choice on how he wants to run the team.   Isoplay.   In the 4th qtr, they would go to a small lineup, the floor spacing would change and they played Isoball with Thomas.   It allowed him to dictate what he would do.  Would he PNR?  Would he PNP?  Would he Just Iso his man or pull up in the midrange.   His effeciency rose.  I'm sure that if you looked at his 4th qtr stats they are much better than his other 3qtr stats because while he was isolated with the ball, the defense had to respect him and his ability to iso and his teammates. 

It leads to more effecient play in most cases.   Not for Westbrook because he plays Isoball without the help of his team.  It's not really by design.   When Joe was here, his isoball was by design.  I used to joke about it being Joe, back... and to the left.  Meaning that he would get his man off balanced and he had spacing enough to move back and to the left to reset.

 

 

I have never seen anything supporting that.  Individual players running offensive sets like PNR or PNP is not ISO by definition.  Be happy to see the numbers showing that general ISO leads to higher ts% (i.e. Shooting efficiency).  I've seen tons of data showing that ISO sets produce lower efficiency shots.

[marco102]

This thread is so funny!  Diesel just admit you dislike Dennis because he caused Teague to get shipped away.  It's fine.  We all know that's what the issue is.

[Diesel]

10 hours ago, AHF said:

I have never seen anything supporting that.  Individual players running offensive sets like PNR or PNP is not ISO by definition.  Be happy to see the numbers showing that general ISO leads to higher ts% (i.e. Shooting efficiency).  I've seen tons of data showing that ISO sets produce lower efficiency shots.

First.  My admission is I have been saying efficiency but not meaning scoring efficiency but meaning efficiency in not turning over the ball.   

However, 

Here's something that you should read.

 

Quote

While isolations may result in fewer points per possession, they also result in fewer turnovers. A missed shot is usually preferable to a live-ball turnover that oftentimes fuels a fast break (a transition play). Moreover, a missed shot at least creates an opportunity for an offensive rebound (and a possible putback).

The isolation is also a highly effective game-management tool. A coach can isolate an opposing defender who is beating his team on the other end. By doing this, he can make that player work harder and expend energy. If he can switch to get them mismatched, he can get that player into foul trouble.

 

[Diesel]

9 hours ago, marco102 said:

This thread is so funny!  Diesel just admit you dislike Dennis because he caused Teague to get shipped away.  It's fine.  We all know that's what the issue is.

When Teague was gone, he was gone.   What I dislike is the fact that we were a 60 win team in the ECF for the first time because of Ball Movement.  NOW, we're just an isoteam.. back to where we were before.  Can you admit that??

 

[JTB]

21 minutes ago, Diesel said:

When Teague was gone, he was gone.   What I dislike is the fact that we were a 60 win team in the ECF for the first time because of Ball Movement.  NOW, we're just an isoteam.. back to where we were before.  Can you admit that??

 

We’re not an iso team though. I think that’s the issue of why everyone or most disagree with your post. You continue to keep bringing up that we play iso ball but apparently your definition of iso ball is completely different than the what everyone else believes iso ball is.

ive read through your post and it seems as though you have an issue with Dennis when he feels like he can take advantage of his opponent. Whether it’s a good decision or not , or if he scores or not on that particular play or plays....you are going to take issue with him if he doesn’t get the team involved on every single play period

[deester11]

2 hours ago, JTB said:

We’re not an iso team though. I think that’s the issue of why everyone or most disagree with your post. You continue to keep bringing up that we play iso ball but apparently your definition of iso ball is completely different than the what everyone else believes iso ball is.

ive read through your post and it seems as though you have an issue with Dennis when he feels like he can take advantage of his opponent. Whether it’s a good decision or not , or if he scores or not on that particular play or plays....you are going to take issue with him if he doesn’t get the team involved on every single play period

This sums it up perfectly.  Dennis is not the problem here.  Truth be told, Bud could use some adjustments to his system because at times it seems outdated for the personnel that we deploy.  Nice post JTB.

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, JTB said:

We’re not an iso team though. I think that’s the issue of why everyone or most disagree with your post. You continue to keep bringing up that we play iso ball but apparently your definition of iso ball is completely different than the what everyone else believes iso ball is.

ive read through your post and it seems as though you have an issue with Dennis when he feels like he can take advantage of his opponent. Whether it’s a good decision or not , or if he scores or not on that particular play or plays....you are going to take issue with him if he doesn’t get the team involved on every single play period

If you ask Dennis... He never feels like he can't  take advantage of his opponent.   Ask him.    It's evident by his 6/20 game the other day when Prince was shooting 75% with no turnovers.   Obviously, he was not able to take advantage of his man, but did that stop him from putting up shots?

I don't have a problem in how he played offensively in the PTL game.  However, ego... ego... won't let him be that.   And if we get a guy like Doncic, either we're going to slow his development or we're going to have to get rid of Dennis because Dennis is not a guy who cannot be the primary ball handler.  Without the Ball, he's like you on the court. 

[deester11]

40 minutes ago, Diesel said:

If you ask Dennis... He never feels like he can't  take advantage of his opponent.   Ask him.    It's evident by his 6/20 game the other day when Prince was shooting 75% with no turnovers.   Obviously, he was not able to take advantage of his man, but did that stop him from putting up shots?

I don't have a problem in how he played offensively in the PTL game.  However, ego... ego... won't let him be that.   And if we get a guy like Doncic, either we're going to slow his development or we're going to have to get rid of Dennis because Dennis is not a guy who cannot be the primary ball handler.  Without the Ball, he's like you on the court. 

I'd rather my PG have that attitude than having to stick a mirror under his nose to see if he is breathing. And I'm glad you don't have a problem with his Portland game offensively. He was "golden." And defensively he gave great effort in the second half.  

Who's the best option for scoring on the team Diesel?  Curious mind here.  

And how do you get that a guy averaging 6.8 assists per game is selfish? (8th amongst pg's). Oh and the second least amount of turnovers of those top 8 PG'S. 

[marco102]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

If you ask Dennis... He never feels like he can't  take advantage of his opponent.   Ask him.    It's evident by his 6/20 game the other day when Prince was shooting 75% with no turnovers.   Obviously, he was not able to take advantage of his man, but did that stop him from putting up shots?

I don't have a problem in how he played offensively in the PTL game.  However, ego... ego... won't let him be that.   And if we get a guy like Doncic, either we're going to slow his development or we're going to have to get rid of Dennis because Dennis is not a guy who cannot be the primary ball handler.  Without the Ball, he's like you on the court. 

Wow, Dennis took 4 more shoots than TP.  He also had 9 assists, so he wasn't being selfish.  TP only had 1.  By your logic TP should have passed more to everyone else because it  wasn't bud ball even though TP was hot.

[JTB]

19 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Dennis is worse off of the ball than Jeff. Dennis will always be an on-ball PG. This is the one part where I kinda agree with Diesel. Dennis lacks the versatility to be a complete guard and he's not a true PG to where it doesn't matter what he does off of the ball. 

 

I'll say this since Plumlee has been starting, the PnR has been more effective than with Dedmon who is a better player. 

Damn I read this over and over again and for the first time in this thread on page 9 I can’t defend Dennis! Lol

....smh nope can’t defend Dennis offensive off ball game because he’d truly have to adjust his mind set within the offense with another primary ball handler such as Doncic if we drafted him and since Dennis the day Dennis arrived it has been only for the majority of the time an on ball task for him within buds offense.

Now is Dennis capable of decent off ball play based purely on his skill set? YES in my opinion but let me explain why I believe he’s capable. Mind you I’m going to use Curry, Ray Allen “off ball style” (key word “style”) as an example...while Dennis is of course no where near the shooter ray or curry is, Dennis has shown great strides and huge improvement in his mid range jump shot as we witnessed all last season and it is a reliable shot from him now however he hasn’t really done it much on a catch and shoot basis unless the ball was being inbounded for a quick shot.....so that brings me to my next point on how it’s possible for Dennis to be a decent off ball scorer...ya see I believe Dennis can mimic a Rip Hamilton like style at a decent level where it’s dangerous just enough to be affective within the offense off ball. As you probably already know Rip Hamilton was an absolute beast mid range off ball shooter who did exactly what curry and ray Allen did in terms of running around off ball/off screens working the damn baseline for catch shoot opportunities except Mainly at the midrange areas.

can Dennis be as good as Hamilton off ball if he really worked on it? Probably not but can he make it an affective just enough when the other primary ball handler has the ball...yes I believe so with his speed and quickness he can lose his opponents for some quality looks throughout the game...now look don’t get me wrong I know “off ball movement” is an special art but it’s not an art Dennis CAN’T learn.

[deester11]

So off the ball is the argument now? I can't defend Dennis either on that but it sure seems like digging to find things that Dennis can't do considering this team has been expected to be amongst the worst in the league personnel wise and Dennis is far from the problem with this team.  It's really amusing seeing knowledgeable people surmise that Dennis is in any way selfish or the issue with the current Hawk's team.

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, deester11 said:

I'd rather my PG have that attitude than having to stick a mirror under his nose to see if he is breathing. And I'm glad you don't have a problem with his Portland game offensively. He was "golden." And defensively he gave great effort in the second half.  

Who's the best option for scoring on the team Diesel?  Curious mind here.  

And how do you get that a guy averaging 6.8 assists per game is selfish? (8th amongst pg's). Oh and the second least amount of turnovers of those top 8 PG'S. 

See that's the problem.   You think we have to have 1 guy.   Ball movement.  Best Shot available.   Lebron James is not walking through that door.  And Dennis is NO Lebron James. 

 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, marco102 said:

Wow, Dennis took 4 more shoots than TP.  He also had 9 assists, so he wasn't being selfish.  TP only had 1.  By your logic TP should have passed more to everyone else because it  wasn't bud ball even though TP was hot.

So am I to assume you want it both ways?  You want Dennis to be able to feed the hothand and you want to look the other way when he still shoots more than the hot hand?

So let's get this straight.   TP is shooting 75% with NO Turnovers.   Dennis is shooting 30% with 3 turnovers..  and you all the sudden OK with Dennis putting up 20 shots (most on the team) in this situation because he had 9 assists?

Somethings don't require Deep Basketball thinking.   And this is one.   But continue with your inability to see any wrong in Dennis. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, deester11 said:

So off the ball is the argument now? I can't defend Dennis either on that but it sure seems like digging to find things that Dennis can't do considering this team has been expected to be amongst the worst in the league personnel wise and Dennis is far from the problem with this team.  It's really amusing seeing knowledgeable people surmise that Dennis is in any way selfish or the issue with the current Hawk's team.

Well, I didn't dig too hard to find off the ball.  It's the main question that the team will have to answer.   IF we get a draft pick like Doncic...  what happens with Dennis?  In fact, we will find ourselves resisting any ball handling 2,3, or 4 because we know that Dennis can't be effective if he doesn't have the ball in his hands. 

[marco102]

20 minutes ago, Diesel said:

So am I to assume you want it both ways?  You want Dennis to be able to feed the hothand and you want to look the other way when he still shoots more than the hot hand?

So let's get this straight.   TP is shooting 75% with NO Turnovers.   Dennis is shooting 30% with 3 turnovers..  and you all the sudden OK with Dennis putting up 20 shots (most on the team) in this situation because he had 9 assists?

Somethings don't require Deep Basketball thinking.   And this is one.   But continue with your inability to see any wrong in Dennis. 

This is the thing. You act like Dennis does no right.  He does plenty right.  

When he's being selfish or playing terribly, I'm all for Bud benching him.  The thing is, he's improved on being selfish and he's starting to make the right reads. 

You act like he's the same player he was when we drafted him, that's clearly not the case.

Speaking of turnovers, Dennis is top 2 in the league as far as point guards go in assists to turnovers. 

The difference between you and I is I don't fall in love with Hawks players.  If they are on the team I root for them, if they aren't, I could care less about them. You got your feelings hurt because Dennis is better than Teague and can't speak objectively about anything Dennis related.

So who's the one that doesn't have the deep basketball thinking?

And you also refuse to tell us quantitatively what numbers Dennis should have to meet your standards because you know you are not being objective and even if he average 10 pts and 20 assists a game you'd say he' wasn't scoring enough.

Edited January 2, 2018 by marco102