Lil Goldie is just like Teague but with far more aggression

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Dennis = Flashy but not effective.  That's the problem.   If Dennis wants to impress with his aggressiveness, maybe he needs to be aggressive on defense?  Maybe, he can be aggressive enough to not be the 115th ranked starting guard by defensive rating standards.   Does his aggressiveness pass your eye test??

(( whistling ))

 

[MaceCase]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

This is not true.   There's a passer on each championship team.   Whether it's Lebron or Draymond/Steph... there's a guy that's initiating offense and getting guys involved.   Now, for a minute, we can pretend as if Lebron doesn't distribute and when he can't he just goes for points...  When you take a look at Kyrie, Kyrie could afford to be a scoring PG... but tell me which of these guys you mentioned has even sniffed championship??  Westbrook?  Kemba?  Lillard?  

I would say that Lowry and Tony Parker are more distributor than me first scorers.  

When you talk about Dennis, he's the only passer on our non-passing team.   We don't have anybody to help him with Assists.  Then somehow, we confuse that to mean that we're playing like Steph and Kyrie...  Hello, we're the Lebron James who is making all the passes for this team or how about Draymond who is doing his part to initiate the offense.   

As I always say, you can change the positions, you may rename them, you may totally take them out of basketball, but you will still need the skillsets in order to win. 

 

You can say all you want, still won't make any of it true. 

You're admitting that the majority of these other point guards are benefiting from passing coming from the rest of their rosters but putting the onus solely on Dennis to play traditionally for the Hawks?  That doesn't add up. 

Kyrie and Steph have more than sniffed rings, they have trophy cases displaying them, then Westbrook and Thomas have also played in Conference Finals not to mention a Finals.  Then Dennis has a higher career assist percentage than Parker and Lowry, two clear me first scoring options but to fit your agenda we'll pretend that they are pass first distributors...when they are not.

If you want to make the argument that skillsets exist outside of set positions then why are you then trying to pigeonhole a skillset directly on Dennis because of his position?  He is fulfilling his role to the same degree as his contemporaries so if there are any perceived deficiencies in his game, well you need to look elsewhere on the roster than to blame him.

[MaceCase]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

BS.  You don't take a diaper dandy taken in the first round and make him be a role player on a team lacking talent.   What the hell are you teaching him to be when more talent comes in???

I'll take a shot in the dark here but:

 

Someone who can operate with better talent around him rather than needing to be the sole focus.

 

How often have we seen guys be given the keys to a team then they later get surrounded by equal if not better talent but now they don't know how to operate cohesively or do something as simple as play effectively off-ball?  The answer is all the time.

[bleachkit]

The path to a championship is lock down defense, great ball movement, and a uber talented point forward that the offense can run through (Lebron, KD, Dunan). 

[RedDawg#8]

58 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

The path to a championship is lock down defense, great ball movement, and a uber talented point forward that the offense can run through (Lebron, KD, Dunan). 

And the key to an enjoyable season for Hawks fans is to let Dennis do his thing and keep us in games

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, MaceCase said:

I'll take a shot in the dark here but:

 

Someone who can operate with better talent around him rather than needing to be the sole focus.

 

How often have we seen guys be given the keys to a team then they later get surrounded by equal if not better talent but now they don't know how to operate cohesively or do something as simple as play effectively off-ball?  The answer is all the time.

It doesn't make sense to make a good player into a role player.  In no way.   Collins have big potential and we're teaching him to play a lesser role on the team than Ilysova?  IF that's the coaching strategy then Bud should be fired now rather than later.   Can you imagine Karl Anthony Townes or Anthony Davis being coached to be a role player?

 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, MaceCase said:

You can say all you want, still won't make any of it true. 

You're admitting that the majority of these other point guards are benefiting from passing coming from the rest of their rosters but putting the onus solely on Dennis to play traditionally for the Hawks?  That doesn't add up. 

Kyrie and Steph have more than sniffed rings, they have trophy cases displaying them, then Westbrook and Thomas have also played in Conference Finals not to mention a Finals.  Then Dennis has a higher career assist percentage than Parker and Lowry, two clear me first scoring options but to fit your agenda we'll pretend that they are pass first distributors...when they are not.

If you want to make the argument that skillsets exist outside of set positions then why are you then trying to pigeonhole a skillset directly on Dennis because of his position?  He is fulfilling his role to the same degree as his contemporaries so if there are any perceived deficiencies in his game, well you need to look elsewhere on the roster than to blame him.

I've admitted that the skillset of distributing is necessary.   We don't have Lebron James playing behind Dennis so there's no need for Dennis to go out and do his Kyrie imitation.   

History Lesson:

It was several year ago... The Bulls had shown that they could win championships with the triangle offense.   The offense was a monster because it worked off of Scottie Pippen being a point forward.   So a young Assistant coach from the Bulls got a Head coaching job at Dallas.   He was fortunate enough to have on his roster Jason Kidd, Jamal Mashburn, and Jimmy Jackson.   He said that we're going to run the triangle.   They won 25 games.   In fact, it was a bigger failure than it was with the Knicks.   So what's the take home?  Just because it works for somebody else, doesn't mean that it will work for you.   

Us having Dennis play like "kyrie" when he has no other passing is not smart.   Moreover in a few of their championship years, Tony Parker was at the 40 assist% level.  You applauded Dennis for having good numbers, but in Tony's case it was different.  He had a Ginobili and a Duncan who could pass efectively, however, in their championship years, his numbers jumped up so high because he was running the offense.   Dennis numbers are high because he's the only player on the team passing at all.   That's just a coincidental stat.   It doesn't suggest that he's running the offense or helping players get going.   If he were, we'd be a better team. 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

And the key to an enjoyable season for Hawks fans is to let Dennis do his thing and keep us in games

Why not have Dennis help develop the talent around him instead of "doing his thing"?   Collins and Prince could benefit in having a PG who worked with them and helped them become PNR guys or spot up shooters.   The way this plays out is that Collins and Prince are underdeveloped.  We bring in more talent and those guys never get good because everybody is relegated to watching Dennis Do his Thing.  You play how you practice. 

 

[nathan2331]

 

 

Why not have Dennis help develop the talent around him instead of "doing his thing"?   Collins and Prince could benefit in having a PG who worked with them and helped them become PNR guys or spot up shooters.   The way this plays out is that Collins and Prince are underdeveloped.  We bring in more talent and those guys never get good because everybody is relegated to watching Dennis Do his Thing.  You play how you practice. 

 

 

Dennis is not that big of a ball hog. The ball sometimes tends to stay in his hands, but that happens a lot of times because guys can't shake their defenders. He's playing about as well as you could hope in a bad situation. I can understand wanting a different PG you think might be more effective for the future, but Dennis today is better than most PGs in the league.

 

Prince has had plenty of opportunities to expand his game, and hopefully Collins will get a chance to as well. Dennis isn't stopping them from improving. I'd argue that Bazemore, when he's playing like a headless chicken at times is more of a detriment, but he's played fairly well recently.

[JTB]

10 hours ago, Diesel said:

Dennis = Flashy but not effective.  That's the problem.   If Dennis wants to impress with his aggressiveness, maybe he needs to be aggressive on defense?  Maybe, he can be aggressive enough to not be the 115th ranked starting guard by defensive rating standards.   Does his aggressiveness pass your eye test??

Defense is about effort and it’s a team thing. No one on this hawks team is giving consistent effort on defense on most nights. You can’t put that on one player and place all the blame on him. 

These guys know what’s going on. They know the roster was constructed for them to lose this season therefore their efforts are going to go up and down a lot just due to them being tired of losing and know that they aren’t really playing for anything 

[JTB]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

I've admitted that the skillset of distributing is necessary.   We don't have Lebron James playing behind Dennis so there's no need for Dennis to go out and do his Kyrie imitation.   

History Lesson:

It was several year ago... The Bulls had shown that they could win championships with the triangle offense.   The offense was a monster because it worked off of Scottie Pippen being a point forward.   So a young Assistant coach from the Bulls got a Head coaching job at Dallas.   He was fortunate enough to have on his roster Jason Kidd, Jamal Mashburn, and Jimmy Jackson.   He said that we're going to run the triangle.   They won 25 games.   In fact, it was a bigger failure than it was with the Knicks.   So what's the take home?  Just because it works for somebody else, doesn't mean that it will work for you.   

Us having Dennis play like "kyrie" when he has no other passing is not smart.   Moreover in a few of their championship years, Tony Parker was at the 40 assist% level.  You applauded Dennis for having good numbers, but in Tony's case it was different.  He had a Ginobili and a Duncan who could pass efectively, however, in their championship years, his numbers jumped up so high because he was running the offense.   Dennis numbers are high because he's the only player on the team passing at all.   That's just a coincidental stat.   It doesn't suggest that he's running the offense or helping players get going.   If he were, we'd be a better team. 

I’m not sure what your point is lol. Yeah exactly...Parker had 2 other players on his team that could pass remarkably well in Gino and Duncan. Dennis doesn’t have even one other  reliable playmaker on his team at the time therefore for a full 48 minutes the offense is carried by Dennis minus the time he sits. therefore the situations are very different though that’s not hard to see.

Also Parker’s numbers hardly  increased during their championship years but for the most part Parker was a 18 pts per game, 6 assists per game, extremely consistent (will be, should be HOF) point guard over the regular season and playoffs during those times all while playing by the greatest power forward of all time.

Dennis has Parker like traits in his game. Last season Dennis finished top 5 among guards on mid range shooting and he slightly increased his 3pt shooting last season too though it’s down this season. However though his 3pt shooting is down, Dennis has increased his assist to turnover ratio this season and he continues to be all out aggressive in attacking the basket.

....you see little by little Dennis has continued to improve his game and once we get more key players and this team learns how to play with each other , Dennis numbers will continue to improve and the team will win a lot more games. But right now unfortunately you have to embrace the tank season.

[MaceCase]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

I've admitted that the skillset of distributing is necessary.   We don't have Lebron James playing behind Dennis so there's no need for Dennis to go out and do his Kyrie imitation.   

History Lesson:

It was several year ago... The Bulls had shown that they could win championships with the triangle offense.   The offense was a monster because it worked off of Scottie Pippen being a point forward.   So a young Assistant coach from the Bulls got a Head coaching job at Dallas.   He was fortunate enough to have on his roster Jason Kidd, Jamal Mashburn, and Jimmy Jackson.   He said that we're going to run the triangle.   They won 25 games.   In fact, it was a bigger failure than it was with the Knicks.   So what's the take home?  Just because it works for somebody else, doesn't mean that it will work for you.   

Us having Dennis play like "kyrie" when he has no other passing is not smart.   Moreover in a few of their championship years, Tony Parker was at the 40 assist% level.  You applauded Dennis for having good numbers, but in Tony's case it was different.  He had a Ginobili and a Duncan who could pass efectively, however, in their championship years, his numbers jumped up so high because he was running the offense.   Dennis numbers are high because he's the only player on the team passing at all.   That's just a coincidental stat.   It doesn't suggest that he's running the offense or helping players get going.   If he were, we'd be a better team. 

1) We've seen Kyrie before LeBron and presently without LeBron.  He is virtually the same player, a score first PG that hasn't been asked to shoulder a larger facilitating role.  He's been asked to play like "Kyrie" for the 3rd best team in the league.

2) What works for Dennis is what works for 90% of the entire league's PGs.  The take home with that?  Requiring that he buck the trend and resemble the outliers is more of a recipe for disaster than it is success.  Trying to duplicate the triangle after you've seen it win championships is a plausible experiment, trying to duplicate the triangle years after you've seen it fail in all but two instances is pure stupidity.

3) Parker did not get an assist percentage in the 40s until his 8th season.  He's only done it 2 other times in his career and not won a single championship while doing so.  4/5 of Parker's Final's appearances he's sported an assist percentage worse than even Dennis' career average.

4) You cannot detract Dennis as a playmaker while he "coincidentally" ranks in the top 10 of the majority of passing statistics.  You cannot claim that his playmaking is a "coincidence" either when it is virtually identical to when the team was filled with other playmakers such as Teague, Millsap, and Horford.  What that plainly demonstrates is that Dennis is not the reason why the team is not better, it's the lack of playmakers outside of him.  

 

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

It doesn't make sense to make a good player into a role player.  In no way.   Collins have big potential and we're teaching him to play a lesser role on the team than Ilysova?  IF that's the coaching strategy then Bud should be fired now rather than later.   Can you imagine Karl Anthony Townes or Anthony Davis being coached to be a role player?

 

Both Towns and Wiggins would certainly be better players now if they'd had more experience learning how to fulfill all of the little roles such as facilitating, rebounding, and defense instead of being one sided afterthoughts now that they are not being force fed the ball every time down the court.  Both Davis and Cousins would have more seamlessly figured out how to play together too.  This of course is ignoring the fact that Collins is nowhere in the realm of talent that those players are.

 

 

[Sothron]

Diesel saying it is a coincidence that Dennis has good passing stats is just laughable. Stats are only meaningless when your ox is the one getting gored eh?  He's not a distributor despite being in top ten in most passing stats? LOL ok there guy.

[Atlantaholic]

On ‎23‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 6:33 PM, AHF said:

In fairness, Dwight was good cleaning up but not particularly good in the post.  He hasn't been good in the post for years.

He was never really ever good. Always turned the ball over at an unfathomable rate, and his only effective moves were muscling people or using his quickness to go around slower players. Once he lost a step and his back got weak, it was the end of his effectiveness from down low. 

[Atlantaholic]

2 hours ago, Sothron said:

Diesel saying it is a coincidence that Dennis has good passing stats is just laughable. Stats are only meaningless when your ox is the one getting gored eh?  He's not a distributor despite being in top ten in most passing stats? LOL ok there guy.

And having a better assist - turnover ratio than Teague despite Teague playing with much better talent around him. 

[RedDawg#8]

7 hours ago, Diesel said:

Why not have Dennis help develop the talent around him instead of "doing his thing"?   Collins and Prince could benefit in having a PG who worked with them and helped them become PNR guys or spot up shooters.   The way this plays out is that Collins and Prince are underdeveloped.  We bring in more talent and those guys never get good because everybody is relegated to watching Dennis Do his Thing.  You play how you practice. 

 

Yeah that's on the head coach to develop guys. 

Dennis is an NBA player entering his prime, he could help other PGs on the roster but I doubt he knows much about playing SF and PF on the NBA level.

Thank God we have a coaching staff.

The best lesson they can learn from Dennis is, set better screens and open up to the ball handler (which most of our guys fail to do) and roll hard to the rim and He will find you with more passes. 

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, MaceCase said:

1) We've seen Kyrie before LeBron and presently without LeBron.  He is virtually the same player, a score first PG that hasn't been asked to shoulder a larger facilitating role.  He's been asked to play like "Kyrie" for the 3rd best team in the league.

2) What works for Dennis is what works for 90% of the entire league's PGs.  The take home with that?  Requiring that he buck the trend and resemble the outliers is more of a recipe for disaster than it is success.  Trying to duplicate the triangle after you've seen it win championships is a plausible experiment, trying to duplicate the triangle years after you've seen it fail in all but two instances is pure stupidity.

3) Parker did not get an assist percentage in the 40s until his 8th season.  He's only done it 2 other times in his career and not won a single championship while doing so.  4/5 of Parker's Final's appearances he's sported an assist percentage worse than even Dennis' career average.

4) You cannot detract Dennis as a playmaker while he "coincidentally" ranks in the top 10 of the majority of passing statistics.  You cannot claim that his playmaking is a "coincidence" either when it is virtually identical to when the team was filled with other playmakers such as Teague, Millsap, and Horford.  What that plainly demonstrates is that Dennis is not the reason why the team is not better, it's the lack of playmakers outside of him.  

 

Both Towns and Wiggins would certainly be better players now if they'd had more experience learning how to fulfill all of the little roles such as facilitating, rebounding, and defense instead of being one sided afterthoughts now that they are not being force fed the ball every time down the court.  Both Davis and Cousins would have more seamlessly figured out how to play together too.  This of course is ignoring the fact that Collins is nowhere in the realm of talent that those players are.

 

 

1.  Kyrie shoots 49% from the field and 41% from three and scores 24.8 ppg.  Any imitation that Dennis brings to the table is a poor one.   Moreover, we're not Boston.  We don't have passers at every position.   It's stupid to try to duplicate what they have when we don't have what they have. 

2.  What do you mean... works?  IS there a lot of Shoot first PG?  Sure.  Are 90% of them winning?  Hell NO.   So what do you mean works?  Do you mean.. that they can get the ball up and down the floor and entertain???  I would suggest that about 50% of those shoot first PG are on teams that are ill equipped to play with a shoot first PG because they have no other passers on the team.   Hello Kemba.  Hello  DiAngelo.   There are only a few PGs in this league that can be a scorer and facilitator with the scorer coming first:  Steph Curry, John Wall, and MCJr.   Other's can't be shoot first without having a passer on the team with them.  

Your thinking that pass first PGs are a thing of the pass that can't win is wrongheaded.  Weather it's the triangle offense or the Westhead offense, Basketball always returns to it's skillsets. 

3.  Dennis is the only passer on the Hawks team.  So he will coincidentally be a high on the Ass% stat.   Sorry but Prince, Illyasova, Bellinelli are all waiting on Dennis to pass.   He's the only passer.  we have no other persons that can effectively create their own shots or pass the ball.   Does that mean that he's a playmaker??  NO.  That means that he's the only guy on our team that can pass.  Period.  It is laughable that you think that because he's the only guy passing on this team that he's a Playmaker to be mentioned with the league's best...  DO you honestly think of him in the same circles as Wall, Conley Jr, Westbrook?  He'll he's not even in the playmaking circle with Dragic and Lin.  Lonzo Ball has been in the league for 100 minutes and he's already a better playmaker than Dennis.   If we go out and get a guy who can make plays then Dennis can play OG but until then, he's not good for this team. 

 

 

 

 

[Peoriabird]

I would quote all of that statements you just wrote but it would take too much time to decipher what you typed.

You mentioned championship and pass 1st point guards so the question is, who was the last pass 1st point guard to win a championship?

You also mention Dennis being the only passer on the team which I disagree with because Bazemore might be the best passer on the team right now but for argument purposes lets say it true.  Doesn't that statement only apply to this year's team?  Or do you think that the team will have the same personnel over the next 5 years?  You gotta help me understand you my friend because right now I am totally lost

[MaceCase]

15 minutes ago, Diesel said:

1.  Kyrie shoots 49% from the field and 41% from three and scores 24.8 ppg.  Any imitation that Dennis brings to the table is a poor one.   Moreover, we're not Boston.  We don't have passers at every position.   It's stupid to try to duplicate what they have when we don't have what they have. 

 

Your entire argument has been for Dennis to be more of a pass first PG and here you are propping a shoot first PG.  So instead claiming Dennis, while already being a superior passer, should work more on his scoring your argument is....he should become a better passer.  Ok. 

Secondly, Boston does NOT have passers at every position, they have Horford and Kyrie.... and that's it. 

 

23 minutes ago, Diesel said:

2.  What do you mean... works?  IS there a lot of Shoot first PG?  Sure.  Are 90% of them winning?  Hell NO.   So what do you mean works?  Do you mean.. that they can get the ball up and down the floor and entertain???  I would suggest that about 50% of those shoot first PG are on teams that are ill equipped to play with a shoot first PG because they have no other passers on the team.   Hello Kemba.  Hello  DiAngelo.   There are only a few PGs in this league that can be a scorer and facilitator with the scorer coming first:  Steph Curry, John Wall, and MCJr.   Other's can't be shoot first without having a passer on the team with them.  

Of the 16 playoff teams only LeBron James, James Harden, Chris Paul, John Wall and Rajon Rondo sport a higher assist% than Dennis.  That would appear to be a lot of shoot first PGs that are winning and very few passing PGs.

42 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Dennis is the only passer on the Hawks team.  So he will coincidentally be a high on the Ass% stat.   Sorry but Prince, Illyasova, Bellinelli are all waiting on Dennis to pass.   He's the only passer.  we have no other persons that can effectively create their own shots or pass the ball.   Does that mean that he's a playmaker??  NO.  That means that he's the only guy on our team that can pass.  Period.  It is laughable that you think that because he's the only guy passing on this team that he's a Playmaker to be mentioned with the league's best...  DO you honestly think of him in the same circles as Wall, Conley Jr, Westbrook?  He'll he's not even in the playmaking circle with Dragic and Lin.  Lonzo Ball has been in the league for 100 minutes and he's already a better playmaker than Dennis.   If we go out and get a guy who can make plays then Dennis can play OG but until then, he's not good for this team

Explain how exactly is it possible that Dennis had an equal assist percentage when surrounded by all of Jeff Teague, Paul Millsap and Al Horford?  There isn't some magic jump in his passing that could be attributed to him having the ball more, this is a consistent 4 year sample.  If Dennis being a better playmaker would make the Hawks a better team then why are the majority of the players you mentioned who are supposedly better populating the lottery?  There seems to be far less of a correlation of pass first players winning than talented rosters.

 

Nothing you say adds up but by all means, continue to say it.

[Diesel]

10 hours ago, MaceCase said:

Your entire argument has been for Dennis to be more of a pass first PG and here you are propping a shoot first PG.  So instead claiming Dennis, while already being a superior passer, should work more on his scoring your argument is....he should become a better passer.  Ok. 

Secondly, Boston does NOT have passers at every position, they have Horford and Kyrie.... and that's it. 

 

Of the 16 playoff teams only LeBron James, James Harden, Chris Paul, John Wall and Rajon Rondo sport a higher assist% than Dennis.  That would appear to be a lot of shoot first PGs that are winning and very few passing PGs.

Explain how exactly is it possible that Dennis had an equal assist percentage when surrounded by all of Jeff Teague, Paul Millsap and Al Horford?  There isn't some magic jump in his passing that could be attributed to him having the ball more, this is a consistent 4 year sample.  If Dennis being a better playmaker would make the Hawks a better team then why are the majority of the players you mentioned who are supposedly better populating the lottery?  There seems to be far less of a correlation of pass first players winning than talented rosters.

 

Nothing you say adds up but by all means, continue to say it.

Superior Passer?  This must be hyperboyle...  My contention about Dennis is that he ought to be LESS SELFISH.  He's not Kyrie.  He's not Wall.  He's Not Steph.   His FG% and his Team Makeup does not suggest that he should be a Selfish shoot first PG.   I don't think you notice it but our team struggles to find wins and our players are not developing.  While it will be most people who will blame the coach... it doesn't matter what coach you put there if Dennis is going to continue being a Selfish Player.   BTW... Just because he gets an assist here or an assist there or even has one game where he puts up 8 assist... it doesn't mean that he's not selfish.  He's the only guy on the team who passes.  He's an Isoplayer. 

Here's the point.  Josh Smith.   In his last season with the Hawks, Josh averaged 4.2 assists per game.  In fact, he was #1 amoung PFs in the apg stat.   Do you think he was selfish or unselfish?  Do you think he ran the offense for the Hawks?  What were your thoughts on Josh Smith in the 2012-2013 season?

Here's what you said...

Quote

I think the best comparison for Josh . . . is Tony Romo.

 

When you look at Romo's numbers and stats, he's a better QB than even Troy Aikman. But when you watch Romo actually play, and some of the mistakes he makes in critical situations, it creates a love-hate relationship with the guy.

 

Romo doesn't make the typical type turnovers. He makes game changing turnovers that lose games. And that's what Smith does with his shot selection and his careless ball handling at times. Like Romo, he simply needs to stop trying to do everything all the time, and just make the RIGHT PLAY.

 

Here's a great series of videos about Tony Romo. You tell me that you couldn't substitute Josh Smith in all of these vids, wth his highlights and lowlights, and it would be accurate. He's about the only other guy in sports more polarizing than Josh Smith. Well, him and Alex Rodriguez. Cowboy fans feel torn about Romo, the same way Hawks fans feel torn about Josh Smith.

Now.  Dennis is selfish.  Assists doesn't take away from the fact that he was selfish.  In fact, Joe Johnson was our assist leader most of the time he was a Hawk... but that didn't mean that Joe Johnson ran any kind of offense except IsoJoe offense.   Right now we have Isoschro on offense and people believe that the assists means that he's a superior passer.  What?