Lil Goldie is just like Teague but with far more aggression

[Diesel]

11 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

I would quote all of that statements you just wrote but it would take too much time to decipher what you typed.

You mentioned championship and pass 1st point guards so the question is, who was the last pass 1st point guard to win a championship?

You also mention Dennis being the only passer on the team which I disagree with because Bazemore might be the best passer on the team right now but for argument purposes lets say it true.  Doesn't that statement only apply to this year's team?  Or do you think that the team will have the same personnel over the next 5 years?  You gotta help me understand you my friend because right now I am totally lost

While I agree that Baze is a passer on this team (not a very efficient one).  Dennis has the high ass% because we don't have a team that will pass because of the way that Schro runs the offense. 

The difference is like us with Josh, Al, Joe, Teague and Marvin vs. Us with Korver, Sap, DMC, Teague, and Al. Al, Joe, Josh and Teague wee all great passers .  Josh averaged about 4 apg, Al about the same, and Joe led the Hawks in assists for many of the years he was here and Teague was a 7 apg PG in 2012-2013.  However, because we played Isolation basketball, their ability as a team sucked in comparison to Korver, Sap, DMC, Teague, and Al.    I would say that the "red" team was much less versed in being passers but Bud's philosophy made them a better team.   

Now.  We still have Bud coaching but we are playing an Iso game that doesn't benefit the other players.  When I watch Baze, I believe that he's trying to initiate the Bud offense that he came in under but the stop gap is always Dennis.   Dennis doesn't pass like we did under Bud Ball.   Dennis is selfish.   Dennis has never bought into Bud bad and know we have a Budball coach and we're playing Isoschro ball. 

For me.. I have seen what wins.  It's the same thing that wins championships in GS and Cleveland.  It's the same thing that wins in Boston.  It's called Ball movement.  Too many people here think it's the shoot first nature of the PG.  NO.  It's the fact that the Ball doesn't get stuck in an isogame and it moves to different players.   Right now, Isoschro only allows himself to handle the ball and therefore he becomes our main source of assists.   It looks good on the stat sheets.  So did Josh's 4.2 apg.   So did Joe's averaging over 5 apg.  However, it doesn't nothing for us building a winning team and culture.  

So here's the deal...  Bud will be blamed.   Bud will be blamed because he has a Isoteam.  As if Bud has forgotten how to coach Budball.   As if Bud didn't spend his first few years here training Teague to be a Budball PG?  Dennis has never bought into Budball and is the reason we're not running it now. 

 

 

[MaceCase]

9 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Superior Passer?  This must be hyperboyle...  My contention about Dennis is that he ought to be LESS SELFISH.  He's not Kyrie.  He's not Wall.  He's Not Steph.   His FG% and his Team Makeup does not suggest that he should be a Selfish shoot first PG.   I don't think you notice it but our team struggles to find wins and our players are not developing.  While it will be most people who will blame the coach... it doesn't matter what coach you put there if Dennis is going to continue being a Selfish Player.   BTW... Just because he gets an assist here or an assist there or even has one game where he puts up 8 assist... it doesn't mean that he's not selfish.  He's the only guy on the team who passes.  He's an Isoplayer. 

Yawn.  A me-first-selfish-iso-player that passes better than other me-first-selfish-iso-players.  Something is wrong with this picture.  Why is it that the other me-first-selfish-iso-players aren't passing as well as Dennis?  Shouldn't they have higher assist stats too?  Why were Dennis' assist stats similar when surrounded by other passers?  Inquiring minds wish to know your explanation to these constantly repeated questions rather than wild protestations that Dennis is holding back the vast potential of this roster.

 

19 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Here's the point.  Josh Smith.   In his last season with the Hawks, Josh averaged 4.2 assists per game.  In fact, he was #1 amoung PFs in the apg stat.   Do you think he was selfish or unselfish?  Do you think he ran the offense for the Hawks?  What were your thoughts on Josh Smith in the 2012-2013 season?

Uhm, my name is not @TheNorthCydeRises.  And clearly you paid zero attention to that actual post because it discusses turnovers, something that Dennis is extremely low in despite having extremely high passing stats.

 

31 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Now.  Dennis is selfish.  Assists doesn't take away from the fact that he was selfish.  In fact, Joe Johnson was our assist leader most of the time he was a Hawk... but that didn't mean that Joe Johnson ran any kind of offense except IsoJoe offense.   Right now we have Isoschro on offense and people believe that the assists means that he's a superior passer.  What?

 

You're dancing.  Joe was never tops in the league in assist percentage like Dennis is.  You're trying to use examples of vastly inferior passers to Dennis in an attempt to diminish what he's accomplishing.  He is not just leading his team, he is not just amongst the leaders of his position, he is amongst the leaders in the league.  I'm seeing all of these examples, seeing all of these proclamations but then wondering why aren't all of these other selfish or unselfish guys managing what Dennis is? Clearly hogging the ball can't just lead to such higher passing numbers than "pass first" players because then all of the "me first" players would have similar accomplishments.

[MaceCase]

25 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Now.  We still have Bud coaching but we are playing an Iso game that doesn't benefit the other players.  When I watch Baze, I believe that he's trying to initiate the Bud offense that he came in under but the stop gap is always Dennis.   Dennis doesn't pass like we did under Bud Ball.   Dennis is selfish.   Dennis has never bought into Bud bad and know we have a Budball coach and we're playing Isoschro ball. 

For an Iso ball team it's amazing that the Hawks are 8th in assists and 4th in assist percentage.  Let me guess, they are the only passers in the games that they play so of course they will get assists.

[Peoriabird]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

While I agree that Baze is a passer on this team (not a very efficient one).  Dennis has the high ass% because we don't have a team that will pass because of the way that Schro runs the offense. 

The difference is like us with Josh, Al, Joe, Teague and Marvin vs. Us with Korver, Sap, DMC, Teague, and Al. Al, Joe, Josh and Teague wee all great passers .  Josh averaged about 4 apg, Al about the same, and Joe led the Hawks in assists for many of the years he was here and Teague was a 7 apg PG in 2012-2013.  However, because we played Isolation basketball, their ability as a team sucked in comparison to Korver, Sap, DMC, Teague, and Al.    I would say that the "red" team was much less versed in being passers but Bud's philosophy made them a better team.   

Now.  We still have Bud coaching but we are playing an Iso game that doesn't benefit the other players.  When I watch Baze, I believe that he's trying to initiate the Bud offense that he came in under but the stop gap is always Dennis.   Dennis doesn't pass like we did under Bud Ball.   Dennis is selfish.   Dennis has never bought into Bud bad and know we have a Budball coach and we're playing Isoschro ball. 

For me.. I have seen what wins.  It's the same thing that wins championships in GS and Cleveland.  It's the same thing that wins in Boston.  It's called Ball movement.  Too many people here think it's the shoot first nature of the PG.  NO.  It's the fact that the Ball doesn't get stuck in an isogame and it moves to different players.   Right now, Isoschro only allows himself to handle the ball and therefore he becomes our main source of assists.   It looks good on the stat sheets.  So did Josh's 4.2 apg.   So did Joe's averaging over 5 apg.  However, it doesn't nothing for us building a winning team and culture.  

So here's the deal...  Bud will be blamed.   Bud will be blamed because he has a Isoteam.  As if Bud has forgotten how to coach Budball.   As if Bud didn't spend his first few years here training Teague to be a Budball PG?  Dennis has never bought into Budball and is the reason we're not running it now. 

 

 

Seems like you have made up your mind about a few things despite the overwhelming evident to the contrary.

1)  You consider Dennis an ineffective "me first" point guard who's passing statistics are artificially elevated on a team without other passers and as a result, the team has become an isoteam and Bud will get the blame and get fired.

2) Scoring point guard don't win championships so we need to find a pass 1st point guard to replace Dennis.

How am I doing?

[Sothron]

I've seen Diesel wrong before on a player but this Dennis hate is so devoid of a connection to reality that it is kinda frightening. Did Dennis steal his girl at a hookah bar?

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

I've seen Diesel wrong before on a player but this Dennis hate is so devoid of a connection to reality that it is kinda frightening. Did Dennis steal his girl at a hookah bar?

Give him a chance to make his point because I am totally confused.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

Diesel an I are just old school when it comes to starting PG’s... When I think of what I want my PG to be like, I think of Stockton, Payton, and Hardaway. Grind on defense and set up the offense... None of this AI scoring BS.

[Peoriabird]

@Diesel must be unsuccessfully trying to dig up some obscure stat to support his stance and that is why he has been quite this morning

[Lurker]

The last team to win a championship that had a past first-er at PG was Dallas in 2011. Even there it was about the team. They don't win the title just because they have a pass first-er at PG if they don't have Dirk. 

This ain't me pining for Dennis, if he can't play with consistent effort I wouldn't be sad if he was traded. But even still if you look for a young PG, while you might get a better passer, you're USUALLY not going to find a guy that just gets out of the way, is a true 3rd/4th'er and lets others on the team do the main grunt work on offense. Like for example, if you draft Trae Young, you get an excellent passer but he doesn't defer to anyone right now. 

The pass first-er at PG can work IMO but it's not, oh let's bring in a pass first-er at PG and just step aside as they transform the team! You get bad ideas if you look at what happened in college, Lonzo Ball will be a fine complimentary NBA player and may push a guy like Kyle Kuzma into stardom but in today's age he's likely not going to become "the" star.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Lurker

[JTB]

2 hours ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

Diesel an I are just old school when it comes to starting PG’s... When I think of what I want my PG to be like, I think of Stockton, Payton, and Hardaway. Grind on defense and set up the offense... None of this AI scoring BS.

I understand that...personally I’m like that with centers. I rather my center dominate the paint and able to score with  both his back to the basket and face up. Also occasionally be able to hit a three if open.

i still believe traditional centers can be more valuable than the new age centers if they are unstoppable in the paint.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

44 minutes ago, JTB said:

I understand that...personally I’m like that with centers. I rather my center dominate the paint and able to score with  both his back to the basket and face up. Also occasionally be able to hit a three if open.

i still believe traditional centers can be more valuable than the new age centers if they are unstoppable in the paint.

The days of Shaq, Hakeem, and Robinson does seem to be behind us... Nowadays they play sissy, touch-me-not basketball.  I miss seeing Lambier and Rodman putting guys on their back for trying to drive the lane. That get a player ejected and suspended in today's game.  Toughness and tenacity is lost... all guys today do is complain and demand bigger checks.

[Sothron]

3 hours ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

Diesel an I are just old school when it comes to starting PG’s... When I think of what I want my PG to be like, I think of Stockton, Payton, and Hardaway. Grind on defense and set up the offense... None of this AI scoring BS.

Only one of those players was a pass first PG. The modern NBA with the "share the ball, spread out and shoot 3's" offense has made a "pass first" PG not needed if said PG can't also shoot and score. Ricky Rubio would be a multiple AS/borderline HOF player if he played in the 80's or early 90's.

I played PG in college. I love that position. I hate selfish shoot first ignore team second PGs with high scoring volumes to disguise how ineffective they were on the court. One of the reasons I hate Iverson as much as I do is because he hot dogged his entire career and the team around him suffered.

Dennis is nothing like that. It boggles my mind how anyone can watch him play and think he's being too selfish.

 

[Wurider05]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

Only one of those players was a pass first PG. The modern NBA with the "share the ball, spread out and shoot 3's" offense has made a "pass first" PG not needed if said PG can't also shoot and score. Ricky Rubio would be a multiple AS/borderline HOF player if he played in the 80's or early 90's.

I played PG in college. I love that position. I hate selfish shoot first ignore team second PGs with high scoring volumes to disguise how ineffective they were on the court. One of the reasons I hate Iverson as much as I do is because he hot dogged his entire career and the team around him suffered.

Dennis is nothing like that. It boggles my mind how anyone can watch him play and think he's being too selfish.

 

I thought that I was the only one. I can not stand Allen Iverson and the way he played the game. An average player at best who was given all the shots he wanted. We he had to play team ball he was out of the league.  Diesel etc has to realize the the league is changing now. 

[Diesel]

9 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Seems like you have made up your mind about a few things despite the overwhelming evident to the contrary.

1)  You consider Dennis an ineffective "me first" point guard who's passing statistics are artificially elevated on a team without other passers and as a result, the team has become an isoteam and Bud will get the blame and get fired.

2) Scoring point guard don't win championships so we need to find a pass 1st point guard to replace Dennis.

How am I doing?

1,  Very close.  The main inflated passing stat is Ass%.   Meaning when I see arguments with that as the lead.. I cringe.  Also A/TO.  His A/TO will be high because we run Isoball.   Isoball players get really good A/TO.. it's an inflation because of style of play not because he's a "superior Passer" 

2.  Scoring PGs are only acceptable when you have a passing team.   Watch the ball whip around with those scoring PGs and then watch how the ball gets stuck with Isoschro.   Then watch how those scoring PGs with the exception of Westbrook move without the ball.   Then Watch Isoschro become disengaged if the play is not him pounding the ball.   I'm not saying that a scoring PG can't win, I'm saying that there's a formula for a scoring PG to be successful and the only PGs in the league that can supersede that formula are Curry and Wall. 

 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Sothron said:

Only one of those players was a pass first PG. The modern NBA with the "share the ball, spread out and shoot 3's" offense has made a "pass first" PG not needed if said PG can't also shoot and score. Ricky Rubio would be a multiple AS/borderline HOF player if he played in the 80's or early 90's.

I played PG in college. I love that position. I hate selfish shoot first ignore team second PGs with high scoring volumes to disguise how ineffective they were on the court. One of the reasons I hate Iverson as much as I do is because he hot dogged his entire career and the team around him suffered.

Dennis is nothing like that. It boggles my mind how anyone can watch him play and think he's being too selfish.

 

I don't have a problem if the offense is spread and you have passes from everybody to the open man.  I.e. Spurs, find the best shot.... I.e. Bud Ball.   However, that's not what we have and Dennis' Ass% and the eye test says so.   

Ask yourself and answer truthfully...

Are we playing Budball?  Are we playing the same Budball that made us a championship contender??

[Diesel]

10 hours ago, MaceCase said:

 

You're dancing.  Joe was never tops in the league in assist percentage like Dennis is.  You're trying to use examples of vastly inferior passers to Dennis in an attempt to diminish what he's accomplishing.  He is not just leading his team, he is not just amongst the leaders of his position, he is amongst the leaders in the league.  I'm seeing all of these examples, seeing all of these proclamations but then wondering why aren't all of these other selfish or unselfish guys managing what Dennis is? Clearly hogging the ball can't just lead to such higher passing numbers than "pass first" players because then all of the "me first" players would have similar accomplishments.

Begging the question.   You make ass% leading sound like a GOOD THING??  Is that what you think?  It practically means that he has the ball all the time. 

What I'm saying falls in line with this article. 

Quote

To understand why Assist Percentage : Usage Percentage is a potentially important metric, we first have to understand why Assist Percentage in this case fails us.  Specifically, it’s because Assists to some degree just track how often a particular player has the ball in his hands.  The player’s who possess the ball the most are the most likely to make passes and thus also the most likely to rack up assists, even if their passes aren’t particularly special.

 

[JTB]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I don't have a problem if the offense is spread and you have passes from everybody to the open man.  I.e. Spurs, find the best shot.... I.e. Bud Ball.   However, that's not what we have and Dennis' Ass% and the eye test says so.   

Ask yourself and answer truthfully...

Are we playing Budball?  Are we playing the same Budball that made us a championship contender??

You act like these same players been playing together for years and they know buds scheme inside out but that’s not the case. C’MON MAN!

While Dennis has been around as well as Baze, bud ball is not focused primarily on just one player setting up the whole team (you should know that...we aren’t running a  Dantoni type scheme where primarily the point guard is responsible for getting the team set and running each and every play every time down court  ). 

 

REALIZE THAT THIS ISNT A VET TEAM:

It’s not rocket science...the hawks are missing key vet guys like korver, DMC, Millsap, horford who were here to do those little things off ball that helped make the offense go. If you ask me I’m starting to think you believed Jeff Teague was CP3, Nash or someone that year we won 60 games lol...and that wasn’t him at all.

 

ARE YOU WATCHING THE GAMES:

If you are actually watching the games there are some similar plays like Marco trying to be korver like but he’s just not him , it’s not the same affect running those pin down screens with him as it was with korver. Prince I’m not sure what the hell Prince is doing ! He’s not playing the DMC role he’s trying to do a lot more but maybe that’s what bud wants him to do. Baze is trying to be a secondary playmaker that he can’t truly be and make up for the playmakers we lost in Millsap and horford....meanwhile Dennis is playing Teagues role better than Teagues All Star year.

 

YOUR ARGUMENT IS TOO EARLY UNDER THE SCHLENK ERA:

.....your comments are unfair for a team whose trying to learn how to play together, for team that’s just extremely young right now, and for a team that literally does not have all its major parts yet! (News flash that’s why we are tanking even you haven’t noticed). Looking for perfection without all the parts being here is just silly to do. At least wait for Schlenk to completely build out the roster to his vision  and then let’s judge if they are playing perfect bud ball or not.

[JTB]

Who in here considers Tony Parker a true traditional  pg? 

 

[marco102]

41 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I don't have a problem if the offense is spread and you have passes from everybody to the open man.  I.e. Spurs, find the best shot.... I.e. Bud Ball.   However, that's not what we have and Dennis' Ass% and the eye test says so.   

Ask yourself and answer truthfully...

Are we playing Budball?  Are we playing the same Budball that made us a championship contender??

Sigh.  Ask yourself this.  If Dennis wasn't doing what Bud wanted, would Bud Bench him?

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by marco102

[Lurker]

Remember, Bud was fully in on the decision to trade Teague. You'd think if he was so TURNED OFF of Dennis, that would have NEVER happened.

This is completely comical. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Lurker