Lil Goldie is just like Teague but with far more aggression

[JTB]

I’m starting to realize that Dennis is more similar to Teague than I originally thought. Teague was only an all star caliber point guard if surrounded around other all star talents and if it weren’t for his passiveness he would have made more than one all star game as a hawk.

Many of you would suggest that this isn’t a good thing but I’m one to believe that there are quite a few players in the nba like this and it isn’t a bad thing at all. However with that said most players in the nba even surrounded around all star talent they still couldn’t become an all star if tried their hardest....Teague and Dennis happen to be players that can excel to all star levels if placed on a quality team with at least two other all star players in the right system.

i don’t believe this is a knock on Dennis but a great thing for him and the team moving forward once we get all the pieces together. Of course we’d like to have a star pg on our hands but we can’t have a star at every position on the team so here’s my theory about this and his success here in Atlanta.....

 

IF Schlenk can give Dennis the same opportunity as Teague received playing here with at least 2 all stars every season ...Dennis will excel to a higher level than Teague and likely be a normal all star reserve year in and year out.

 

[Diesel]

38 minutes ago, JTB said:

I’m starting to realize that Dennis is more similar to Teague than I originally thought. Teague was only an all star caliber point guard if surrounded around other all star talents and if it weren’t for his passiveness he would have made more than one all star game as a hawk.

Many of you would suggest that this isn’t a good thing but I’m one to believe that there are quite a few players in the nba like this and it isn’t a bad thing at all. However with that said most players in the nba even surrounded around all star talent they still couldn’t become an all star if tried their hardest....Teague and Dennis happen to be players that can excel to all star levels if placed on a quality team with at least two other all star players in the right system.

i don’t believe this is a knock on Dennis but a great thing for him and the team moving forward once we get all the pieces together. Of course we’d like to have a star pg on our hands but we can’t have a star at every position on the team so here’s my theory about this and his success here in Atlanta.....

 

IF Schlenk can give Dennis the same opportunity as Teague received playing here with at least 2 all stars every season ...Dennis will excel to a higher level than Teague and likely be a normal all star reserve year in and year out.

 

Nah.

Teague would never ignore players for his own goals.   Teague ran the system better and was a better distributor even though he started out as a 2.   What you call aggressive is really the fact that Dennis is selfish.   Any player can constantly call his own number, but how many of those players know how to get other players going.   Dennis does not know how to get other players going.   He passes because he know he has to, but it's never his intent to get another player going and be the distributor.   That's why Dennis is not a winner.   You can surround him with a team of allstars and he will put limitations on them all because he only passes because he has to and he doesn't follow a scheme.   A real PG doesn't care if he scores 2 points, if he can get assists.   That's not Dennis.   For Dennis, an assist is just a stat line and not a means to win. 

[deester11]

30 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Nah.

Teague would never ignore players for his own goals.   Teague ran the system better and was a better distributor even though he started out as a 2.   What you call aggressive is really the fact that Dennis is selfish.   Any player can constantly call his own number, but how many of those players know how to get other players going.   Dennis does not know how to get other players going.   He passes because he know he has to, but it's never his intent to get another player going and be the distributor.   That's why Dennis is not a winner.   You can surround him with a team of allstars and he will put limitations on them all because he only passes because he has to and he doesn't follow a scheme.   A real PG doesn't care if he scores 2 points, if he can get assists.   That's not Dennis.   For Dennis, an assist is just a stat line and not a means to win. 

I get your hate for Dennis and you're  in your feelings about it but that post  is so full of wrong it is borderline asinine. 

[Lurker]

Maybe we should blame guys like John Collins not getting more shots on coaching instead of any of the guards. Because it really seems like all Bud wants him to do now is be a roll man on the PNR/cutter/occasionally shoots jumpers. It's odd, as he's actually a REALLY good low post scorer with good moves unlike Dwight Howard (who is absolutely horrible at it today) but then some may come running into this thread and say "But if he doesn't pan out as a star, Bud is allowing him to build a foundation to fall back on!!!!"

Another dig at Dwight on purpose here. ;)

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, deester11 said:

I get your hate for Dennis and you're  in your feelings about it but that post  is so full of wrong it is borderline asinine. 

Maybe it's your blind love.   Name one time that Dennis ever gave up his chance to score in order to get another player the ball.   I never see Dennis consistently feeding the hot hand.   He will give a guy maybe 2 passes then go into his own offense.  Eventually, he'll use the hot hand as a decoy so that he can move them around to get his shot.  That was my frustration with him playing with Paul.  If it wasn't PNR then he would watch a hot Paul go cold because he would move away from feeding him the ball while he's hot.   It's almost like Dennis says... OK, you've had your turn, now it's my turn again.   And that is how he plays.  Moreover, if he doesn't have the ball, he's not into the game.   He doesn't move without the ball, he doesn't set picks or help players by being in the play at all.  He will just stand so far outside of the play that his man knows that he won't shoot from there and it becomes a 4 on 5.   He's just not a winner. 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, Lurker said:

Maybe we should blame guys like John Collins not getting more shots on coaching instead of any of the guards. Because it really seems like all Bud wants him to do now is be a roll man on the PNR/cutter/occasionally shoots jumpers. It's odd, as he's actually a REALLY good low post scorer with good moves unlike Dwight Howard (who is absolutely horrible at it today) but then some may come running into this thread and say "But if he doesn't pan out as a star, Bud is allowing him to build a foundation to fall back on!!!!"

Another dig at Dwight on purpose here. ;)

As I predicted... it doesn't matter how good of a low post scorer you bring in, he won't succeed with Dennis.  Dennis will limit them.   Check my posts on Howard... I said that this would happen and even predicted that people would blame Bud.  So continue. 

 

[nathan2331]

Dennis without the ball in his hands is a liability. We don't have any other players consistently capable of creating their own shot yet and Dennis doesn't shoot threes well. Dennis isn't a floor general, but he is near the top of the league in assists. I don't get where this selfish narrative comes from. This is what an aggressive PG looks like. I can understand folks wanting to move him for a better prospect, but I don't understand how anyone is disappointed in him given the circumstances we find ourselves in.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Name a great player who wasn't selfish?

[Lurker]

32 minutes ago, Diesel said:

As I predicted... it doesn't matter how good of a low post scorer you bring in, he won't succeed with Dennis.  Dennis will limit them.   Check my posts on Howard... I said that this would happen and even predicted that people would blame Bud.  So continue. 

 

Bruh.

Did you even freaking read this post?

Do you even watch games, like say, last night, with Dennis sitting on the bench?

 

This post freaking COMPLIMENTED Collins as a low post scorer from what I saw from his Wake video and questioned how he's been using PERIOD by Bud. If you'd NOTICE even with all of the other guards on the team he's not really even been looked at in the low post and that's purely coaching. Just in PNR atm.

But no, you ignore it, because I'm continuing to attack Dwight, who by the way, deserves it as despite all his talent his team is 11-21.

I'm having a lot of fun exposing you as a Dwight Howard HOMER.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Name a great player who wasn't selfish?

Jason Kidd. 

John Stockton.

Magic Johnson 

Isaiah Thomas.

Bill Russell 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Bruh.

Did you even freaking read this post?

Do you even watch games, like say, last night, with Dennis sitting on the bench?

 

This post freaking COMPLIMENTED Collins as a low post scorer from what I saw from his Wake video and questioned how he's been using PERIOD by Bud. If you'd NOTICE even with all of the other guards on the team he's not really even been looked at in the low post and that's purely coaching. Just in PNR atm.

But no, you ignore it, because I'm continuing to attack Dwight, who by the way, deserves it as despite all his talent his team is 11-21.

I'm having a lot of fun exposing you as a Dwight Howard HOMER.

Nope.   It's just the same attack that every big who plays with Dennis will have on them... They were good in the post but it must be our system?

[Lurker]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Nope.   It's just the same attack that every big who plays with Dennis will have on them... They were good in the post but it must be our system?

Seriously....do you even watch the freaking games?

Watch especially closely when Dennis is not playing...it's clear the COACHING idea with John Collins is to not even TRY with him in the post atm...they at least tried with Dwight to appease him, and it led to the turnovers. With Collins, do they even try? Nope. Not even the better ******passing guards****** on the team. Yes they feed him, but no they don't ****go to him in the post****.

All you do is sit here and spew your agenda. It's sickening.

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Nope.   It's just the same attack that every big who plays with Dennis will have on them... They were good in the post but it must be our system?

In fairness, Dwight was good cleaning up but not particularly good in the post.  He hasn't been good in the post for years.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

40 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Jason Kidd. 

John Stockton.

Magic Johnson 

Isaiah Thomas.

Bill Russell 

 

And what did those 5 players have around them, to allow them to be unselfish?

[Lurker]

3 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And what did those 5 players have around them, to allow them to be unselfish?

Excellent point, you need your unselfish players but its not the end of the world if it's not your PG...the best teams always have a mix of great scorers and glue guys that make the right plays.

I want to move on from Dennis but the point of my story is pass first-ness at PG can work but it's not going to transform your team in most cases outside of college...there was a great article about Lonzo Ball that is a summary of how I feel on him recently on ESPN. The Lakers might win with him in the future but it'll be because he really helped a scorer be great... Not because he went and transformed a program/franchise that was down by himself.

Perhaps that scorer is Ingram, but perhaps it's someone else.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And its interesting that only Jason Kidd came to mind of players in the last 15 - 20 years, as greats who aren't selfish.

In this era of "pace and space", you need a scoring ball handler in order to be successful.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

31 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Excellent point, you need your unselfish players but its not the end of the world if it's not your PG...the best teams always have a mix of great scorers and glue guys that make the right plays.

I want to move on from Dennis but the point of my story is pass first-ness at PG can work but it's not going to transform your team in most cases outside of college...there was a great article about Lonzo Ball that is a summary of how I feel on him recently on ESPN. The Lakers might win with him in the future but it'll be because he really helped a scorer be great... Not because he went and transformed a program/franchise that was down by himself.

Perhaps that scorer is Ingram, but perhaps it's someone else.

That scorer is going to be Kuzma.  He's already better than Ingram.  But even in Lonzo's case, he's going to have to be much more than a 10 ppg - 8 asst guy.  He'll have to show the ability to score the basketball ( which he has been doing in recent games ).  

Funny that Diesel mentions Jason Kidd.  Here are his stats in those 2 years he was the leader of the New Jersey Nets ( NBA Finals ) teams.

 

2001 - 02:  14.7 ppg - 9.9 asst - 7.3 rebs - 2.1 stls - 3.5 TOs . . . . . 39% FG - 32% 3FG - 81% FT - 48% TS

2002 - 03:  18.7 ppg - 8.9 asst - 6.3 rebs - 2.2 stls - 3.7 TOs . . . . . . 41% FG - 34% 3FG - 84% FT - 53% TS

 

Dennis this season

 

2016 - 17:   19.4 ppg - 6.7 asst - 3.0 rebs - 1.1 stls - 2.5 TOs . . . . . 45% FG - 30% 3FG - 85% FT - 52% TS

 

And it took 2 weeks of lackluster play to bring Dennis down to this point.  And it doesn't help that Dedmon has been out almost a month ( a guy he had developed some nice chemistry with in the pick and roll ) . . and Bud pretty much limits the time on the floor that Dennis and Collins has together ( which makes no sense whatsoever, if Collins is our best big man ).

 

So Diesel and whomever else can judge Dennis negatively all they want.  Surround him with starter level shooters, defenders, and low post scorers, and let's see how selfish or unselfish he is.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lurker]

And for an example of questioning how the coach is using players...John Collins hasn't been in at all down the stretch..

Question Dennis, fine, but there's more going on than what you think. I'm fine moving on from him. Think it should happen. But today's PG is more often than not going to be a scorer.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

That scorer is going to be Kuzma.  He's already better than Ingram.  But even in Lonzo's case, he's going to have to be much more than a 10 ppg - 8 asst guy.  He'll have to show the ability to score the basketball ( which he has been doing in recent games ).  

Funny that Diesel mentions Jason Kidd.  Here are his stats in those 2 years he was the leader of the New Jersey Nets ( NBA Finals ) teams.

 

2001 - 02:  14.7 ppg - 9.9 asst - 7.3 rebs - 2.1 stls - 3.5 TOs . . . . . 39% FG - 32% 3FG - 81% FT - 48% TS

2002 - 03:  18.7 ppg - 8.9 asst - 6.3 rebs - 2.2 stls - 3.7 TOs . . . . . . 41% FG - 34% 3FG - 84% FT - 53% TS

 

Dennis this season

 

2016 - 17:   19.4 ppg - 6.7 asst - 3.0 rebs - 1.1 stls - 2.5 TOs . . . . . 45% FG - 30% 3FG - 85% FT - 52% TS

 

And it took 2 weeks of lackluster play to bring Dennis down to this point.  And it doesn't help that Dedmon has been out almost a month ( a guy he had developed some nice chemistry with in the pick and roll ) . . and Bud pretty much limits the time on the floor that Dennis and Collins has together ( which makes no sense whatsoever, if Collins is our best big man ).

 

So Diesel and whomever else can judge Dennis negatively all they want.  Surround him with starter level shooters, defenders, and low post scorers, and let's see how selfish or unselfish he is.

 

                                                                                                                                      
		Rk                     Age  G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P% eFG%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF PTS/G
		1        Dirk Nowitzki  32 73 73 34.3 8.4 16.2 .517 0.9 2.3 .393 7.5 13.8 .538 .545 5.4 6.1 .892 0.7 6.3 7.0 2.6 0.5 0.6 1.9 2.4  23.0
		2           Jason Kidd  37 80 80 33.2 2.7  7.5 .361 1.7 4.9 .340 1.0  2.6 .400 .472 0.8 1.0 .870 0.4 4.0 4.4 8.2 1.7 0.4 2.2 1.5   7.9
		3          Jason Terry  33 82 10 31.3 6.0 13.3 .451 1.5 4.3 .362 4.5  9.0 .493 .509 2.2 2.6 .850 0.3 1.6 1.9 4.1 1.1 0.2 2.0 1.7  15.8
		4         Caron Butler  30 29 29 29.9 5.9 13.0 .450 1.0 2.2 .431 4.9 10.8 .454 .487 2.3 3.0 .773 0.8 3.3 4.1 1.6 1.0 0.3 1.7 2.0  15.0
		5         Shawn Marion  32 80 27 28.2 5.4 10.4 .520 0.1 0.4 .152 5.4 10.0 .536 .523 1.6 2.1 .768 2.1 4.8 6.9 1.4 0.9 0.6 1.6 1.8  12.5
		6       Tyson Chandler  28 74 74 27.8 3.6  5.5 .654 0.0      0.0 3.6  5.5 .654 .654 2.9 4.0 .732 2.8 6.6 9.4 0.4 0.5 1.1 1.2 3.2  10.1
		7           J.J. Barea  26 81  2 20.6 3.5  8.0 .439 0.8 2.3 .349 2.7  5.7 .476 .490 1.6 1.9 .847 0.4 1.6 2.0 3.9 0.4 0.0 1.7 1.7   9.5
		8      Peja Stojakovic  33 25 13 20.2 3.2  7.4 .429 1.7 4.2 .400 1.5  3.2 .468 .543 0.6 0.6 .938 0.6 2.1 2.6 0.9 0.4 0.1 0.4 0.9   8.6
		9      Brendan Haywood  31 72  8 18.5 1.8  3.1 .574 0.0 0.0 .000 1.8  3.1 .577 .574 0.9 2.5 .362 1.8 3.4 5.2 0.3 0.2 1.0 0.7 2.0   4.4
		10   Rodrigue Beaubois  22 28 26 17.7 3.4  8.0 .422 0.9 3.0 .301 2.5  5.0 .493 .478 0.8 1.1 .767 0.3 1.6 1.9 2.3 0.7 0.3 1.7 2.7   8.4
		11      Sasha Pavlovic  27 10  6 16.3 1.5  3.5 .429 0.7 1.6 .438 0.8  1.9 .421 .529 0.4 0.5 .800 0.0 1.2 1.2 0.7 0.5 0.3 0.5 1.5   4.1
		12   DeShawn Stevenson  29 72 54 16.1 1.8  4.6 .388 1.3 3.5 .378 0.5  1.1 .420 .530 0.5 0.6 .767 0.3 1.2 1.5 1.1 0.3 0.1 0.6 1.0   5.3
		13        Corey Brewer  24 13  2 11.4 1.9  3.9 .490 0.3 1.0 .308 1.6  2.9 .553 .529 1.2 1.6 .714 0.9 0.8 1.8 0.9 0.8 0.2 0.8 1.9   5.3
		14      Brian Cardinal  33 56  4 11.0 0.8  1.8 .430 0.8 1.6 .483 0.0  0.2 .077 .640 0.3 0.3 .944 0.2 0.9 1.1 0.7 0.4 0.1 0.3 1.5   2.6
		15         Ian Mahinmi  24 56  0  8.7 1.0  1.8 .561 0.0 0.0 .000 1.0  1.7 .573 .561 1.1 1.5 .768 0.8 1.4 2.1 0.1 0.3 0.3 0.4 1.9   3.1
		16     Dominique Jones  22 18  0  7.5 0.8  2.5 .311 0.0 0.2 .000 0.8  2.3 .341 .311 0.8 0.9 .824 0.3 1.1 1.4 1.1 0.3 0.2 0.6 0.4   2.3
		17       Alexis Ajinca  22 10  2  7.5 1.2  3.2 .375 0.3 0.7 .429 0.9  2.5 .360 .422 0.2 0.3 .667 0.5 1.2 1.7 0.2 0.3 0.5 0.1 1.3   2.9
		18         Steve Novak  27  7  0  2.6 0.6  1.1 .500 0.4 0.6 .750 0.1  0.6 .250 .688 0.0      0.0 0.0 0.7 0.7 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.4   1.6

 

This was from his championship Season with Dallas.   Check the stats.  Unselfish.

 

 

[Diesel]

29 minutes ago, Lurker said:

And for an example of questioning how the coach is using players...John Collins hasn't been in at all down the stretch..

Question Dennis, fine, but there's more going on than what you think. I'm fine moving on from him. Think it should happen. But today's PG is more often than not going to be a scorer.

Basketball has always had scoring PGs... Way back to Jerry West (the logo).  However, it finds it's niche when the PG is a distributor and knows how to get guys going.  Unless Lebron is coming to Atlanta and will play the role of distributor, Dennis won't win nothing.