Dennis Schröder: Dwight Howard Only Plays Well Against Former Teams

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

You have to honestly understand the difference between type of shots and number of shots.  The Hornets are also conversely 6-8 when Dwight attempts 15 shots or more so it's not a matter of "get him touches" but rather get him the right type of touches.  Something both him and people tend to foolishly believe is post touches rather than off the pick and roll or putbacks.

You need to understand that Basketball is a team sport.   He's not the only person out there.   He's surrounded by NON Shooters and players that can't create for themselves.   How does anything he do fix that?

 

[MaceCase]

45 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You need to understand that Basketball is a team sport.   He's not the only person out there.   He's surrounded by NON Shooters and players that can't create for themselves.   How does anything he do fix that?

 

You'd be amazed how moving the ball for open shots, setting screens to open up players, diving to the basket creating an easy target or drawing the defense in has an effect on improving team and personal play.  But I suppose just standing in the paint waiting for a pass and just isolating for an inefficient shot while your team stands around waiting to bail you out is more effective.  Oh wait, these are the exact same criticisms you have of Dennis!  Well gee, Diesel.  You need to understand that basketball is a team sport, how does anything Dennis does fix that his teammates are non-shooters that can't create for themselves? *shrugs*

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 minute ago, MaceCase said:

You have to honestly understand the difference between type of shots and number of shots.  The Hornets are also conversely 6-8 when Dwight attempts 15 shots or more so it's not a matter of "get him touches" but rather get him the right type of touches.  Something both him and people tend to foolishly believe is post touches rather than off the pick and roll or putbacks.

So let's look at the 8 losses in which he took those 15+ shots.  These are his numbers: 

• 22.5 ppg
• 12.5 rebs
• 2.8 blks
• 2.3 TOs . .
• 73 - 139 FG = 52.5% FG
• 33 - 50 = 66% FT

I mean, damn.  If he's playing like that in losses in which his usage is higher than normal, it's his fault if they lost?  Or could it be this . . .

• Dwight: 30 pts ( 12 - 17 FG ) vs Philly . . . Kemba Walker:  1 - 9 FG for 2 points
• Dwight:  25 pts - 20 rebs - 6 blks ( 11 -23 FG ) vs Chicago . . . Walker & Batum:  9 - 30 FG . . . 29 pts 
• Dwight:  26 pts - 18 rebs ( 9 - 20 FG, 8 - 11 FT ) vs Houston . . . Walker + Batum + Marvin:  10 - 31 FG, 2 - 14 3FG . . 26 points
• Dwight:  14 pts - 13 rebs ( 6 - 17 FG ) vs NY Knicks . . . rest of starters:  9 - 30 FG . . 30 points . . ( I'll blame Dwight for that loss )
• Dwight:  22 pts - 16 rebs ( 9 - 16 FG ) vs New Orleans . . . Hornets 3 pt shooting:  6 - 21
• Dwight:  20 pts - 16 rebs - 4 blks ( 7 - 16 FG ) vs Miami . . . Hornets 3 pt shooting:  5 - 24 . . Dwight was +9 in the game.
• Dwight:  22 pts - 11 rebs ( 9 - 15 FG ) vs Indiana . . . Walker and Batum did their job ( combined 45 pts )
• Dwight:  21 pts - 3 rebs ( 10 - 15 FG ) vs Boston . . . Walker was good, too much Kyrie ( 34 pts )

 

( shrugs ) . .  but let's blame Dwight for their woes, when he's playing well.  If that were Paul Millsap putting up those numbers in losses, no one would have a thing to say to him.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

5 hours ago, Lurker said:

Sorry but you can trash all normal stats regarding to Dwight. He stinks.

That's why I used advanced stats . . . just for you.  If he was the leader in TS%, PER, WS, and WS/48, Dwight was NOT the reason why this team underachieved last year.   He played poorly in the playoffs, so he has to take some of the blame for that.  The other part of the blame had to do with the scheme that we were running, which relegated him to be a 5th option in the offense, which was asinine.

[MaceCase]

1 minute ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

So let's look at the 8 losses in which he took those 15+ shots.  These are his numbers: 

• 22.5 ppg
• 12.5 rebs
• 2.8 blks
• 2.3 TOs . .
• 73 - 139 FG = 52.5% FG
• 33 - 50 = 66% FT

I mean, damn.  If he's playing like that in losses in which his usage is higher than normal, it's his fault if they lost?  Or could it be this . . .

• Dwight: 30 pts ( 12 - 17 FG ) vs Philly . . . Kemba Walker:  1 - 9 FG for 2 points
• Dwight:  25 pts - 20 rebs - 6 blks ( 11 -23 FG ) vs Chicago . . . Walker & Batum:  9 - 30 FG . . . 29 pts 
• Dwight:  26 pts - 18 rebs ( 9 - 20 FG, 8 - 11 FT ) vs Houston . . . Walker + Batum + Marvin:  10 - 31 FG, 2 - 14 3FG . . 26 points
• Dwight:  14 pts - 13 rebs ( 6 - 17 FG ) vs NY Knicks . . . rest of starters:  9 - 30 FG . . 30 points . . ( I'll blame Dwight for that loss )
• Dwight:  22 pts - 16 rebs ( 9 - 16 FG ) vs New Orleans . . . Hornets 3 pt shooting:  6 - 21
• Dwight:  20 pts - 16 rebs - 4 blks ( 7 - 16 FG ) vs Miami . . . Hornets 3 pt shooting:  5 - 24 . . Dwight was +9 in the game.
• Dwight:  22 pts - 11 rebs ( 9 - 15 FG ) vs Indiana . . . Walker and Batum did their job ( combined 45 pts )
• Dwight:  21 pts - 3 rebs ( 10 - 15 FG ) vs Boston . . . Walker was good, too much Kyrie ( 34 pts )

 

( shrugs ) . .  but let's blame Dwight for their woes, when he's playing well.  If that were Paul Millsap putting up those numbers in losses, no one would have a thing to say to him.

Look how far you're stretching to change the reasons for blame in each game then recognize you're trying entirely too hard to disprove a point that there's an overwhelming amount of evidence over a near decade for.  Stop putting the blame elsewhere, smell the roses, you don't have to accept reality but at least acknowledge it.

[MaceCase]

3 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

That's why I used advanced stats . . . just for you.  If he was the leader in TS%, PER, WS, and WS/48, Dwight was NOT the reason why this team underachieved last year.   He played poorly in the playoffs, so he has to take some of the blame for that.  The other part of the blame had to do with the scheme that we were running, which relegated him to be a 5th option in the offense, which was asinine.

Sigh, yet again, do you not realize that a big part of why Dwight was so efficient is precisely because he was the 5th option?  With the increased volume in Charlotte all of his efficiency has cratered.  Do you not see the correlation here?  Or is it his teammates fault that Dwight's own production has dropped despite getting the exact type of looks you complained about him not getting in the "system"?  

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

Look how far you're stretching to change the reasons for blame in each game then recognize you're trying entirely too hard to disprove a point that there's an overwhelming amount of evidence over a near decade for.  Stop putting the blame elsewhere, smell the roses, you don't have to accept reality but at least acknowledge it.

No . . what I did was took the data that you tried to prove to blame Dwight for those losses, and dove deeper into the data to see what actually went on in those games.   You went on the basic premise that if Dwight got more shots, the team loses.  The actual data shows that if the guy is producing in those losses, and everyone else around him is sucking at doing their basic job, the person producing may not be the root cause of the problem.

This is what Lebron James was going through in the middle of this season.  He was playing at a high level, but the guys around him sucked.  So they made a trade to change out some of their aging pieces, to see if that would do the trick.  It did . . for a while.   Now that Love is back, the talent level around him has increased, and the team is winning again.

Of course, Dwight is no Lebron James, and can't produce at a 22 ppg - 12 rebs level on a nightly basis.  But if he's treated like a 5th option in the offense, and options 2 - 4 are schizophrenic as hell from a production standpoint, you will find yourself struggling to maintain stability.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

6 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

Sigh, yet again, do you not realize that a big part of why Dwight was so efficient is precisely because he was the 5th option?  With the increased volume in Charlotte all of his efficiency has cratered.  Do you not see the correlation here?  Or is it his teammates fault that Dwight's own production has dropped despite getting the exact type of looks you complained about him not getting in the "system"?  

The data doesn't support what you're saying, from an in game standpoint.   When Dwight is treated like the 5th option in Charlotte, they play at a level a little worse than the Hawks.  When his usage is high, they're at least a .500 level team.  And when his usage is high, he's usually playing very well, while the rest of the team is sucking.

Dwight is literally the only person in the NBA in which people see increased and efficient production from him, as a negative on the team as a whole.

I do this for a living Mace.   Root cause analysis is what I do.

[MaceCase]

6 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

No . . what I did was took the data that you tried to prove to blame Dwight for those losses, and dove deeper into the data to see what actually went on in those games.   You went on the basic premise that if Dwight got more shots, the team loses.  The actual data shows that if the guy is producing in those losses, and everyone else around him is sucking at doing their basic job, the person producing may not be the root cause of the problem.

This is what Lebron James was going through in the middle of this season.  He was playing at a high level, but the guys around him sucked.  So they made a trade to change out some of their aging pieces, to see if that would do the trick.  It did . . for a while.   Now that Love is back, the talent level around him has increased, and the team is winning again.

Of course, Dwight is no Lebron James, and can't produce at a 22 ppg - 12 rebs level on a nightly basis.  But if he's treated like a 5th option in the offense, and options 2 - 4 are schizophrenic as hell from a production standpoint, you will find yourself struggling to maintain stability.

Wasn't my premise or statement at all.  That was just a simple facet that you chose to focus on in an attempt to defend Dwight because apparently there's a sensitivity here where people think there is "blame" towards him while they hypocritically say "blame" everyone else but him. 

The very clear point I made is that getting Dwight more touches doesn't make him more effective and doesn't positively impact his teams and your response was when he scores a set amount of points they perform better...   Naw, we're having two different conversations here especially as you keep conveniently glossing over the fact that Dwight has seen a drop across the board to career lows from career highs in his own personal stats.

[MaceCase]

12 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Dwight is literally the only person in the NBA in which people see increased and efficient production from him, as a negative on the team as a whole.

 

This is actually quite funny.  No Dwight is the only person in the NBA where you see him have increased and efficient production and say throw out the "system" producing those results and let him play to his "strengths" instead, he aint no Tristan Thompson. 

 

Thanks for the humble brag though, really brought home your point.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

33 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

This is actually quite funny.  No Dwight is the only person in the NBA where you see him have increased and efficient production and say throw out the "system" producing those results and let him play to his "strengths" instead, he aint no Tristan Thompson. 

 

Thanks for the humble brag though, really brought home your point.

Your're going to have to support your claims with legit data, not hyperbole. 

Root Cause Analysis Problem Solving:

• Define the main problem.
• Gather data
• Set your targets to track, after the solutions have been implemented
• List the possible causes of the problem.
• Break down each cause, preferably using the "5 why's" method
• The last "why" should be the root cause for that particular item.
• Use those root causes as possible solutions to solve the main problem.
• Run experiments, if possible, to test your solution approach
• If experiments are effective, develop action plans to make them standard procedure
• Track your results, to see if your actions have been effective
• Review at the end of the period ( or in this case, the season )

 

If Dwight is truly the issue in Charlotte, or in Atlanta, or in most places he's been, you can use this method to prove it.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by TheNorthCydeRises

[Plainview1981]

11 hours ago, Diesel said:

I will suggest that his "big games" are not when he scores 30/30... Those are great, but if he gives you 10 points and Controls the boards and not allow second chance points.. then those guys are huge in my opinion.  That's where winning is done.   My contention about him going to Charlotte is that he went to a team with NO Shooters.   Not really.   Therefore,  wins will be slow coming because they don't have many ways to score the basketball.   In that respect, Kemba is a bigger problem towards winning than Dwight is.  Kemba is a score first PG.  Jarrett Jack and Chris Dunn gets more assists per game than Kemba.  So without shooters and without a PG who can run the offense and get assists, this team won't go anywhere.  The hope was that Batum would step up and do what he did last year and take some of the weight of running the offense off of Kemba but Batum has been hurt.  

So Charlotte's main problem is that they have a lot of guys playing 1 dimensional basketball who can't create for themselves and a PG that is not good at being a creator.  (sounds famaliar). 

 

 

It's always someone fault other than Dwight.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Plainview1981

[Plainview1981]

2 hours ago, MaceCase said:

You'd be amazed how moving the ball for open shots, setting screens to open up players, diving to the basket creating an easy target or drawing the defense in has an effect on improving team and personal play.  But I suppose just standing in the paint waiting for a pass and just isolating for an inefficient shot while your team stands around waiting to bail you out is more effective.  Oh wait, these are the exact same criticisms you have of Dennis!  Well gee, Diesel.  You need to understand that basketball is a team sport, how does anything Dennis does fix that his teammates are non-shooters that can't create for themselves? *shrugs*

It's a lost cause man. The cult of personality effect will always be there. Some people will do anything to defend the strong personality guy they admire.

[MaceCase]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Your're going to have to support your claims with legit data, not hyperbole. 

Root Cause Analysis Problem Solving:

• Define the main problem.
• Gather data
• Set your targets to track, after the solutions have been implemented
• List the possible causes of the problem.
• Break down each cause, preferably using the "5 why's" method
• The last "why" should be the root cause for that particular item.
• Use those root causes as possible solutions to solve the main problem.
• Run experiments, if possible, to test your solution approach
• If experiments are effective, develop action plans to make them standard procedure
• Track your results, to see if your actions have been effective
• Review at the end of the period ( or in this case, the season )

 

If Dwight is truly the issue in Charlotte, or in Atlanta, or in most places he's been, you can use this method to prove it.

 

 

Hypebole:

http://stats.nba.com/players/playtype-post-up/?sort=PPP&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&CF=PossG*GE*3

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/howardw01.html

https://swarmandsting.com/2017/12/05/charlotte-hornets-need-stop-posting-dwight-howard/

 

I guess when you continually fail to properly address step 1, choosing instead to create and attack false narratives, you find yourself in these predicaments.  But much success to you and your job though.

[benhillboy]

RIP Kirk Korver.

[Lurker]

8 hours ago, Diesel said:

Exactly.. .My call for him to be used more in the offense was not to make him our goto guy.. but to see our PG pass him up when he had position and was wide open to dribble dribble dribble shoot was Sickening. 

 

Relying on lots of low post scoring is more sickening than what you hate so much.

[AHF]

Dwight isn't the problem for his past 3 teams.  He also wasn't much of a solution.  Did his thing pretty well and didn't do other things very well.  Net result was not a lot of impact.  (Which is different from being the problem).

[Lurker]

If Dwight was actually an efficient low post player, I'd be on his side but I'm not. Collins laps him as a post player, im sorry.

This has nothing to do with Dennis. Everything to do with Dwight.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

9 hours ago, AHF said:

Dwight isn't the problem for his past 3 teams.  He also wasn't much of a solution.  Did his thing pretty well and didn't do other things very well.  Net result was not a lot of impact.  (Which is different from being the problem).

Dwight definitely solved the issue with the Hawks.  We couldn't rebound worth crap.  And we had no post presence around the rim.  He solved both of those things.

Yet, the offense was 27th in the league, with two of the big reasons were the Hawks being 28th in the league in turnovers, and 23rd in the league in 3 point shooting.  One guy played as about as bad as any starting SF in the league for a 2 month stretch.   The rookie SF didn't get a chance, until the starter was just so bad, they had no other choice.  The backup PG was atrocious.  The starting PG improved, but had his head messed with a little by the coach.  And the All-Star PF had one of his less efficient seasons in 8 years.

Honestly, if it wasn't for the steady play of Dwight, and the mid-season emergence of Tim Hardaway, we miss the playoffs.

But the correlation everyone keeps coming back to, is that Dwight didn't help the team?  Dwight did his job.  All of the numbers and the game tape shows that.  His play in the playoffs was subpar.  That, I can't defend.  Even if the coach refused to get him more touches, he still could've played better.  Maybe he was sulking.  I don't know.

To me, it's just a lazy narrative to act like he didn't help us, then see the shape that we're in now.  We're a bottom 6 team defensively, instead of being a top 5 defensive team.   And we're slightly better ( by the numbers ) offensively, mainly due to the increase in 3 point shooting.

Schlenk knew that if he got rid of Millsap and Howard, you'd take the defensive soul away from the team.  And by not re-signing Hardaway, you take away the one guy that could explode for a big game on any give night.  Even if all 3 of those guys had their flaws, all 3 helped the team.

Another advanced stat in Dwight's favor last year.  Estimated Wins Added.  His 11.3 EWA led the Hawks, and was 32nd in the league

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/sort/VORPe/year/2017

 

 

[davis171]

16 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Your're going to have to support your claims with legit data, not hyperbole. 

Root Cause Analysis Problem Solving:

• Define the main problem.
• Gather data
• Set your targets to track, after the solutions have been implemented
• List the possible causes of the problem.
• Break down each cause, preferably using the "5 why's" method
• The last "why" should be the root cause for that particular item.
• Use those root causes as possible solutions to solve the main problem.
• Run experiments, if possible, to test your solution approach
• If experiments are effective, develop action plans to make them standard procedure
• Track your results, to see if your actions have been effective
• Review at the end of the period ( or in this case, the season )

 

If Dwight is truly the issue in Charlotte, or in Atlanta, or in most places he's been, you can use this method to prove it.

 

 

Dude you literally had guys in Houston saying you had to pick a side because Dwight is to petty to play in the pick and roll with James Harden who even then showed he isn't half the player Harden is. He was just like Isaiah Thomas when he went to the Cavs thought he was 1a to Hardens 1b and it was more Harden 1 Dwight 2 no 1a or 1b just 1.

Edited March 25, 2018 by davis171