Dennis Schröder: Dwight Howard Only Plays Well Against Former Teams

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

There is always the injury excuse. If Batum is the best excuse they have for not winning... Well, they're not much of a team.

How many times does this guy (Howard) have to fail before people admit that he is a failure? He has been good for maybe one season since he left Orlando years ago. He can't pass out of double teams, he doesn't have many skills in the post, he can't shoot free throws and his athletic ability is on the decline. Plus, he is a degenerate fake Christian also.

You think about any team.   Take their 2nd best player away.  Do they still win?

You took Irving away from Lebron and Cleveland needed a makeover. 

You took Curry away from GS and they wouldn't want to go to the playoffs with that team. 

 

[Plainview1981]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You think about any team.   Take their 2nd best player away.  Do they still win?

You took Irving away from Lebron and Cleveland needed a makeover. 

You took Curry away from GS and they wouldn't want to go to the playoffs with that team. 

 

Batum healthy is a good role player and that's all he is. They still don't win this year even when he plays... Yeah, you can say that he isn't completely healthy, but what team gets through the whole year without injury issues? It doesn't happen that often. Lets say that Batum has been 60-65% when playing this year... Do I believe they go from being 10 games under .500 to a really good team with a 100% healthy Batum? I don't think so. I'm not buying Batum as that a superstar level difference maker.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Plainview1981

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

Batum healthy is a good role player and that's all he is. They still don't win this year even when he plays... Yeah, you can say that he isn't completely healthy, but what team gets through the whole year without injury issues? It doesn't happen that often. Lets say that Batum has been 60-65% when playing this year... Do I believe they go from being 10 games under .500 to a really good team with a 100% healthy Batum? I don't think so. I'm not buying Batum as that a superstar level difference maker.

I just notice that there's a dropoff in how he plays now Not 100% and how he played last year.   Last year, he was damn near an allstar.  You lose all that because he's not healthy.   I'm not saying he's a superstar but he was the 2nd best player last year. 

[MaceCase]

So are we arguing that even with the addition of Dwight that Batum is still the Hornet's second best player?  Isn't the better analogy "Add Kevin Durant to Steph Curry but Klay Thompson misses some games, do the Warriors still win?"

By emphasizing the Batum injury you essentially are mitigating Dwight's impact...which is kind of the point of the debate.  Why pay a guy 1/2 option money when you're hoping at best for 3rd option impact?  Why trade for a guy making that kind of money when you're still reliant on a Batum to be the difference?  Why care about a 30 and 30 game when a 15, 6, and 6 average is more important?

[Plainview1981]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I just notice that there's a dropoff in how he plays now Not 100% and how he played last year.   Last year, he was damn near an allstar.  You lose all that because he's not healthy.   I'm not saying he's a superstar but he was the 2nd best player last year. 

I hear what you're saying. 

I just don't see much evidence that Howard adds much to a team these days when it comes to winning.

Will he have some big games on paper? Of course. 

There just isn't a lot of evidence to suggest that Charlotte would be that much better with Batum being healthy. Maybe they're a few games better? Maybe they push .500? That's probably the best case situation.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Plainview1981

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

So are we arguing that even with the addition of Dwight that Batum is still the Hornet's second best player?  Isn't the better analogy "Add Kevin Durant to Steph Curry but Klay Thompson misses some games, do the Warriors still win?"

By emphasizing the Batum injury you essentially are mitigating Dwight's impact...which is kind of the point of the debate.  Why pay a guy 1/2 option money when you're hoping at best for 3rd option impact?  Why trade for a guy making that kind of money when you're still reliant on a Batum to be the difference?  Why care about a 30 and 30 game when a 15, 6, and 6 average is more important?

Well, I don't think anybody would have predicted that Dwight would be the 2nd best Scorer on the Charlotte Team.  Especially seeing that Our PG didn't see him as anything but the 4th or 5th option.  Still, Dwight is that on Charlotte's team now... mainly because Batum has been injured.  Also, you can't make the comparison to Klay, Steph, and Durant simply because Durant is in his prime now.  Dwight hasn't been in his prime in a while.   You can spin that how you like but I deal in truth.  It's more like you bring in LaMarcus Aldridge and Tony Parker or Duncan misses a lot of games. 

The other thing is I don't think that there was ever a time that dwight's best attribute was his offense.   His best attribute in my opinion is his defense and rebounding.   If he gave you offense, that was extra gravy but the defense and rebounding was something that could elevate a team.  He's still a top 3 rebounder (after all these years) and his defense isn't bad. 

 

 

[Diesel]

12 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

I hear what you're saying. 

I just don't see much evidence that Howard adds much to a team these days when it comes to winning.

Will he have some big games on paper? Of course. 

There just isn't a lot of evidence to suggest that Charlotte would be that much better with Batum being healthy. Maybe they're a few games better? Maybe they push .500? That's probably the best case situation.

 

 

I will suggest that his "big games" are not when he scores 30/30... Those are great, but if he gives you 10 points and Controls the boards and not allow second chance points.. then those guys are huge in my opinion.  That's where winning is done.   My contention about him going to Charlotte is that he went to a team with NO Shooters.   Not really.   Therefore,  wins will be slow coming because they don't have many ways to score the basketball.   In that respect, Kemba is a bigger problem towards winning than Dwight is.  Kemba is a score first PG.  Jarrett Jack and Chris Dunn gets more assists per game than Kemba.  So without shooters and without a PG who can run the offense and get assists, this team won't go anywhere.  The hope was that Batum would step up and do what he did last year and take some of the weight of running the offense off of Kemba but Batum has been hurt.  

So Charlotte's main problem is that they have a lot of guys playing 1 dimensional basketball who can't create for themselves and a PG that is not good at being a creator.  (sounds famaliar). 

 

 

[MaceCase]

17 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Well, I don't think anybody would have predicted that Dwight would be the 2nd best Scorer on the Charlotte Team.  Especially seeing that Our PG didn't see him as anything but the 4th or 5th option.  Still, Dwight is that on Charlotte's team now... mainly because Batum has been injured.  Also, you can't make the comparison to Klay, Steph, and Durant simply because Durant is in his prime now.  Dwight hasn't been in his prime in a while.   You can spin that how you like but I deal in truth.  It's more like you bring in LaMarcus Aldridge and Tony Parker or Duncan misses a lot of games. 

The other thing is I don't think that there was ever a time that dwight's best attribute was his offense.   His best attribute in my opinion is his defense and rebounding.   If he gave you offense, that was extra gravy but the defense and rebounding was something that could elevate a team.  He's still a top 3 rebounder (after all these years) and his defense isn't bad. 

 

 

You've literally been ranting for over a year that Dwight should be featured on offense but that 'ole selfish Dennis' froze him out and that "Bud didn't use him right" but now you're surprised that a career 17ppg scorer can score better than a career 12ppg player?

You literally compared that same career 12ppg scorer to Kyrie and Curry but I can't use the same superlatives as you?

All anyone ever asked of Dwight was that he focus on defense and rebounding while you and the rest of the Dwight-Lovers including Dwight demanded he be featured in the post more, be passed the ball more, have better shooters around him, etc. etc. etc.  What meal exactly is built around the "gravy"?   

Yea, I'm stepping out of this craziness.  I've seen way too many spinal injuries over the past month of folks bending backwards making excuses.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, Plainview1981 said:

The Hornets record is no better with him this year than it was  without him last year. Putting up numbers doesn't make you good... Helping teams win does.  Howard's numbers are hollow. 

He is a big dumb retard with a low IQ.  A garbage stat padder black hole like Reef was.

Putting up numbers definitely makes you good, especially when you shoot 55% FG in doing so.  Charlotte's poor record has nothing to do with Howard.  They'd be much worse off without him, if the wings on the team continued to underproduce.  Kind of like the Hawks.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, MaceCase said:

All anyone ever asked of Dwight was that he focus on defense and rebounding while you and the rest of the Dwight-Lovers including Dwight demanded he be featured in the post more, be passed the ball more, have better shooters around him, etc. etc. etc.  What meal exactly is built around the "gravy"?   

Yea, I'm stepping out of this craziness.  I've seen way too many spinal injuries over the past month of folks bending backwards making excuses.

That's the thing though.  Telling Dwight to just focus on defense and rebounding, is essentially treating him like he's Tristan Thompson or Nene.  The guy, when healthy, can still score in the post and draw a ton of fouls on people.

The fact that Dwight was 5th in shot attempts for the Hawks last season, despite shooting 63%, and everybody around him jacking up bricks, was ass backwards.

I don't think anybody said feature the guy.  But to treat him like he was one of your worst offensive players?  Nah.  Dwight, like most big men who can score, need to be fed the ball on occasion, instead of just asking him to clean up all of the bricklayers' misses.  At least Charlotte, they recognized that he can still be an asset as a scorer.   The Hawks would rather stick to their "system", than to cater to player's strengths.

[Lurker]

23 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Putting up numbers definitely makes you good, especially when you shoot 55% FG in doing so.  Charlotte's poor record has nothing to do with Howard.  They'd be much worse off without him, if the wings on the team continued to underproduce.  Kind of like the Hawks.

*fp* they were about the same last year....sorry but Dwight is not a needle mover today.

Millsap was the only true loss.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Lurker

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

I will suggest that his "big games" are not when he scores 30/30... Those are great, but if he gives you 10 points and Controls the boards and not allow second chance points.. then those guys are huge in my opinion.  That's where winning is done.   My contention about him going to Charlotte is that he went to a team with NO Shooters.   Not really.   Therefore,  wins will be slow coming because they don't have many ways to score the basketball.   In that respect, Kemba is a bigger problem towards winning than Dwight is.  Kemba is a score first PG.  Jarrett Jack and Chris Dunn gets more assists per game than Kemba.  So without shooters and without a PG who can run the offense and get assists, this team won't go anywhere.  The hope was that Batum would step up and do what he did last year and take some of the weight of running the offense off of Kemba but Batum has been hurt.  

So Charlotte's main problem is that they have a lot of guys playing 1 dimensional basketball who can't create for themselves and a PG that is not good at being a creator.  (sounds famaliar). 

 

 

eFG% for the Hornets main rotation players:

• Marvin:  55.9%  
• Howard:  55.5% 
• Graham:  52.5% 
• Walker:  51.6%
• Lamb:   51%
• Kidd-Gilchrist:  50.6%
• Kaminsky:  49.5%
• Batum:  48.7%
• Monk:  40.9%

As we all know, eFG% is a stat that is normally driven through the roof by guys who can make 3s at a high rate.  The problem with the Hornets is the only guy who makes a volume of 3s per game, is Kemba Walker.   Marvin Williams makes 40% of his 3s, but he only gets 7 total shots per game.

And the lack of shot creation is definitely evident with that team.  That's why most of them shoot below 50% from 2 point range.  Most of their guards and wings can't knock down a midrange shot at more than a 40% clip, which is a red flag.

[DBac]

Dwight is one of the worst postup players in the NBA. It's not a strength of his at all, despite what he thinks. He's actually a pretty good roll man, but he'd rather try to dominate like Shaq.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

10 minutes ago, Lurker said:

*fp* they were about the same last year....sorry but Dwight is not a needle mover today.

Millsap was the only true loss.

Millsap had a horrible regular season, by his standards.  44% FG . . only 31% 3FG.  He was a big reason why we were so inconsistent. His defense balanced out his offensive woes.

Meanwhile, the "worthless one" led the Hawks in PER, TS%, WS, and WS/48.  But he gets the blame for not elevating guys who played below their normal levels last season?

OK.

[Lurker]

17 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Millsap had a horrible regular season, by his standards.  44% FG . . only 31% 3FG.  He was a big reason why we were so inconsistent. His defense balanced out his offensive woes.

Meanwhile, the "worthless one" led the Hawks in PER, TS%, WS, and WS/48.  But he gets the blame for not elevating guys who played below their normal levels last season?

OK.

Sorry but you can trash all normal stats regarding to Dwight. He stinks.

[MaceCase]

3 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

That's the thing though.  Telling Dwight to just focus on defense and rebounding, is essentially treating him like he's Tristan Thompson or Nene.  The guy, when healthy, can still score in the post and draw a ton of fouls on people.

The fact that Dwight was 5th in shot attempts for the Hawks last season, despite shooting 63%, and everybody around him jacking up bricks, was ass backwards.

I don't think anybody said feature the guy.  But to treat him like he was one of your worst offensive players?  Nah.  Dwight, like most big men who can score, need to be fed the ball on occasion, instead of just asking him to clean up all of the bricklayers' misses.  At least Charlotte, they recognized that he can still be an asset as a scorer.   The Hawks would rather stick to their "system", than to cater to player's strengths.

You of course see no correlation between Dwight posting his most efficient scoring season in FG% and ORTG, his second best in TS%, his best season in WS/48 in 7 seasons, and best BPM in 6 seasons being used more like Tristan Thompson during his lone season in Atlanta? 

You don't at all find it "ass backwards" that he's taken a precipitous drop in every single category being used more like "Superman" instead in Charlotte?

Of course the "system" is clearly ineffective whereas Charlotte is allowing a guy who is 3rd in the league in post possessions yet amongst the 25th percentile in converting them to "play to his strengths".  And this catering has absolutely nothing to do with why Charlotte sucks, all of that has to do with everything else but Dwight.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

18 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

You of course see no correlation between Dwight posting his most efficient scoring season in FG% and ORTG, his second best in TS%, his best season in WS/48 in 7 seasons, and best BPM in 6 seasons being used more like Tristan Thompson during his lone season in Atlanta? 

You don't at all find it "ass backwards" that he's taken a precipitous drop in every single category being used more like "Superman" instead in Charlotte?

Of course the "system" is clearly ineffective whereas Charlotte is allowing a guy who is 3rd in the league in post possessions yet amongst the 25th percentile in converting them to "play to his strengths".  And this catering has absolutely nothing to do with why Charlotte sucks, all of that has to do with everything else but Dwight.

Nope.  Especially seeing that the Hawks were 19 - 11 last year when he scored 15 points or more in a game.  Conversely, they were 7 - 16 when he scored 10 points or less, despite still shooting 52% FG in those low scoring games.

In Charlotte, it's the same thing.  When he scores 10 points or less, they're 2 - 14.  When he scores 15 points or more, they're 24 - 20.  If the guy's numbers didn't matter, then the team would be successful whether he wasn't scoring in games or not.   But in both instances, especially in Charlotte, they're a much better team when he's getting his touches and scoring the basketball, than when he's not.

And yes, the Hawks "system" is ineffective at times, when they value getting shots to bad jump shooters, than getting shots to good post players that are going to make 50% of their shots.

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

That's the thing though.  Telling Dwight to just focus on defense and rebounding, is essentially treating him like he's Tristan Thompson or Nene.  The guy, when healthy, can still score in the post and draw a ton of fouls on people.

The fact that Dwight was 5th in shot attempts for the Hawks last season, despite shooting 63%, and everybody around him jacking up bricks, was ass backwards.

I don't think anybody said feature the guy.  But to treat him like he was one of your worst offensive players?  Nah.  Dwight, like most big men who can score, need to be fed the ball on occasion, instead of just asking him to clean up all of the bricklayers' misses.  At least Charlotte, they recognized that he can still be an asset as a scorer.   The Hawks would rather stick to their "system", than to cater to player's strengths.

Exactly.. .My call for him to be used more in the offense was not to make him our goto guy.. but to see our PG pass him up when he had position and was wide open to dribble dribble dribble shoot was Sickening. 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Tonight is a perfect example.  Poor John Collins is an afterthought in this offense. 

He's relegated to setting screens for erratic scorers, instead of actually getting a chance himself to score the basketball in spots where he can create his own offense.  And on the rare occasion that a guard does find him on the pick and roll, he finishes at a high rate.   

As good as Collins has been this year as a pick and roll finisher, Bud has done very little to expand his game as an all around player.  Can't do that when you're deliberately trying to lose games.  We'll see next season if Bud does a better job in developing Collins, and I'm not talking about jacking up a bunch of 3s either.

If anything that will get Bud fired within these next 2 seasons, it's going to be the lack of development of Collins to be a legit threat in this offense.

[MaceCase]

14 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Nope.  Especially seeing that the Hawks were 19 - 11 last year when he scored 15 points or more in a game.  Conversely, they were 7 - 16 when he scored 10 points or less, despite still shooting 52% FG in those low scoring games.

In Charlotte, it's the same thing.  When he scores 10 points or less, they're 2 - 14.  When he scores 15 points or more, they're 24 - 20.  If the guy's numbers didn't matter, then the team would be successful whether he wasn't scoring in games or not.   But in both instances, especially in Charlotte, they're a much better team when he's getting his touches and scoring the basketball, than when he's not.

And yes, the Hawks "system" is ineffective at times, when they value getting shots to bad jump shooters, than getting shots to good post players that are going to make 50% of their shots.

You have to honestly understand the difference between type of shots and number of shots.  The Hornets are also conversely 6-8 when Dwight attempts 15 shots or more so it's not a matter of "get him touches" but rather get him the right type of touches.  Something both him and people tend to foolishly believe is post touches rather than off the pick and roll or putbacks.