The Tank Thread

[KB21]

Just now, davis171 said:

You have explained this several times. But instead of rebuilding what was the path to be as good as last year even?

You resign Paul Millsap and have John Collins learn behind him.   It's a transitive property to suggest that because Paul got hurt in Denver that he would have gotten hurt in Atlanta as well.  You could still sign DeWayne Dedmon to the MLE and do it over 3 years as opposed to 2 with a player option.  You could have made trades that got veteran players for some of these late first round draft picks the Hawks have collected.  

[davis171]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

You resign Paul Millsap and have John Collins learn behind him.   It's a transitive property to suggest that because Paul got hurt in Denver that he would have gotten hurt in Atlanta as well.  You could still sign DeWayne Dedmon to the MLE and do it over 3 years as opposed to 2 with a player option.  You could have made trades that got veteran players for some of these late first round draft picks the Hawks have collected.  

so pay 90 million to have a guy mentor someone wooooo! You really think Paul makes this a playoff team we had a negative plus minus last year! And trade away the few assets we have I'm done with you.

Edited February 27, 2018 by davis171

[KB21]

Just now, davis171 said:

so pay 90 million to have a guy mentor someone wooooo! You really think Paul makes this a playoff team we had a negative plus minus last year!

Yes, because both Taurean and Dennis are better players this year with Paul on the team.  

[davis171]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Yes, because both Taurean and Dennis are better players this year with Paul on the team.  

WHAT Dennis Schröder is a bottom 5 starting PG and Tuarean is a well below average starting SF 

Edited February 27, 2018 by davis171

[Lurker]

I can see the idea of who knows, I doubt Paul Millsap would have gotten injured here if it was like a broken arm, leg, or foot, or along those lines.

It was a torn ligament and that can come from years of stress put on that body part, based on what I've read. So it most likely was not a freak thing that you can trash.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Lurker

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

You could still sign DeWayne Dedmon to the MLE and do it over 3 years as opposed to 2 with a player option.  

If he wasn't willing to commit to 2 years at that price, why would he commit to 3 years with no opt out?  Seems like if he was willing to go 3 years with no opt out, he wouldn't have an opt out in his current deal.  His current deal screams "one year with a bit more financial security if a catastrophic injury hits."

[CBAreject]

6 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Like I have said before, with what feels like 100 times...

The ONLY way to making the retool while staying legitimately competitive route work, was to not make the mistakes that were made BEFORE last year in this guy's head. As the mistakes were not last year. Oh heck no.

If you don't trade to create assets, you simply aren't going to be able to sign enough **undervalued players** to even make that route work. If the plan was to mostly stand pat with a few moves like perhaps, have Kent Bazemore walk, it would have still led to a bad team this year.

I really don't care what the W's are once you're not in the playoffs.

Very true, but also part of this is that undervalued players cease to be undervalued when you give them massive contracts.  We let Carroll and THJ walk for a reason.  Should’ve let Baze walk.  Again, this all goes back to surplus value, not just signing a bunch of expensive players. 

[davis171]

Just now, AHF said:

If he wasn't willing to commit to 2 years at that price, why would he commit to 3 years with no opt out?  Seems like if he was willing to go 3 years with no opt out, he wouldn't have an opt out in his current deal.  His current deal screams "one year with a bit more financial security if a catastrophic injury hits."

Even that team would be a borderline mediocre playoff team. Trading our draft assets maybe the stupidest thing I've heard since I have been here.

[Lurker]

1 minute ago, CBAreject said:

Very true, but also part of this is that undervalued players cease to be undervalued when you give them massive contracts.  We let Carroll and THJ walk for a reason.  Should’ve let Baze walk.  Again, this all goes back to surplus value, not just signing a bunch of expensive players. 

I meant have THJ walk, oops.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, davis171 said:

WHAT Dennis Schröder is a bottom 5 starting PG and Tuarean is a well below average starting SF 

I think this is correct if you assume that somehow Sap's ligaments are stronger east of the Mississippi.  Young players often play better when surrounded by better talent.  I don't see KB claiming how good they would be - just that they would be better if our best player from last year returned perfectly healthy.

[davis171]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

I think this is correct if you assume that somehow Sap's ligaments are stronger east of the Mississippi.  Young players often play better when surrounded by better talent.  I don't see KB claiming how good they would be - just that they would be better if our best player from last year returned perfectly healthy.

I'm not saying they wouldn't be better. The team was barely a playoff team last year what makes you think that we were locks this year if Millsap was back? We maybe competing with Detroit right now

Edited February 27, 2018 by davis171

[Lurker]

It's playing a hypothetical game and I'd really need to do more research instead of just theorizing, but here's what I mean.

Let's say that you refuse to lose and create and losing culture, but you have the situation that you have last year for the Hawks. 

Linky for reference:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2017.html

Who are you trading off of that team to create your needed assets? We saw what Dwight Howard got, we know the rumors with Dennis Schröder, and Paul Millsap and Tim Hardaway Jr are free agents. 

There's only so much undervalued free agency stuff that you can do and that may not even work.

[KB21]

23 minutes ago, AHF said:

If he wasn't willing to commit to 2 years at that price, why would he commit to 3 years with no opt out?  Seems like if he was willing to go 3 years with no opt out, he wouldn't have an opt out in his current deal.  His current deal screams "one year with a bit more financial security if a catastrophic injury hits."

His deal is one of many mistakes Travis Schlenk has made.  

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

4-5 years is a crazy unrealistic time frame.  Most teams take much longer to go from drafting the engine that will drive their championship to getting a ring.

The GOAT Michael freaking Jordan getting paired with HOFer Scottie Pippen and their 6 rings failed to get it done in 4-5 years.  Heck, Jordan was in his 4th season before he even broke .500!

 

And you still have yet to name any team in NBA history over any number of years to go from mediocre playoff team without a superstar to champion (without getting bad in between).  Glad I said I'd wait instead of saying I'd hold my breath!

Detroit ( early 2000s )

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, davis171 said:

Well no one has ever done what you are saying so that makes no sense. 

Detroit

[davis171]

6 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Detroit

1 and if you think that is repeatable you don't really know the NBA.

Edited February 27, 2018 by davis171

[deester11]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

His deal is one of many mistakes Travis Schlenk has made.  

Name his mistakes and tell us how you'd do better. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

13 minutes ago, davis171 said:

1

Utah ( mid 1980s )

Karl Malone - drafted 13th

John Stockton - drafted 16th

 

Didn't win a title, but was a high quality team for years, and went to back to back NBA Finals.  Matter of fact, they had a stretch in the 1990s in which they went to 5 out of 7 Western Conference Finals.

 

 

[davis171]

11 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Utah ( mid 1980s )

Karl Malone - drafted 13th

John Stockton - drafted 16th

 

Didn't win a title, but was a high quality team for years, and went to back to back NBA Finals.  Matter of fact, they had a stretch in the 1990s in which they went to 5 out of 7 Western Conference Finals.

 

 

Gotcha so get super lucky is your strategy. It has be done twice in 30+ years

Edited February 27, 2018 by davis171

[TheNorthCydeRises]

6 minutes ago, davis171 said:

Gotcha so get super lucky is your strategy. It has be done twice in 30+ years

Super lucky?  Isn't that what the "tank" strategy is?  To get "super lucky"?

It actually took a lot more GM skill to do what Detroit and Utah did.