The Tank Thread

[davis171]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Oh . . . and I have a 3rd team that did it without tanking, while being a middling team without a superstar ( although they haven't officially "done it" yet )

 

Houston Rockets ( mid 2010s )

They did that by pulling off a trade for James Harden because OKC fell in love with Jeremy Lamb(who was a lottery pick by the rockets). What guy on the hawks roster was worth a lottery first rounder last year we reached on Tauren anyway so don't give me that.

[davis171]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

This is the problem with most Hawks fans.. especially those on the tank train.   They believe that because we got a new GM that our drafts will be better.  They fail to realize that it's a much stronger possibility that they won't.   We don't even have players who we are targetting with this tank pick.  This draft itself might be a bust.  But No Hawks fan believe that anybody aside for Knight and Babcock can mess up a pick?  I mean, it could not be said around these parts that Bebe, Dennis or Payne could be bust.  Look at them now.   They've gotten us farther from a championship than Shelden did.  

Here's the problem in Atlanta. 

We think that high draft picks automatically means star and we believe that the Players that we pick will be stars.   That's why we put these No trade barriers on Dennis and Prince.   We miss trades that could help us..  and on top of everything else, with a straight face, we believe that it's better for our team to lose than to win.  Forget about a winning culture... yet we don't understand why Vet FAs who are good don't want to come here.   People, young players (even stars) don't win nothing.   Kyrie Irving would never have gotten into the ring conversation without Lebron and Love coming to Cleveland.    And Love would have continued to die that same death in Minny had he not been traded.  Lillard is a bonafide beast and his team won't make it out of the first round. 

Here are the youngest teams in the League:

Only Boston, Toronto, Portland  and Philly in that list has a chance to do anything this year. Because those are your playoff teams.

By contrast, here are your top 5 oldest teams:

 I don't think that there's much to say here. 

 

 

So sign a bunch of 28 year old free agents and we will be golden state bet! BTW we tried to trade anyone not named John Collins at the deadline and nobody wanted our crappy roster of bad contracts.

Edited February 28, 2018 by davis171

[TheNorthCydeRises]

38 minutes ago, AHF said:

@Diesel, @TheNorthCydeRises

Do you match on THJr and what is your next move this offseason?

@KB21

Your next move is still on the clock.

No.  After re-upping on Millsap, you can't bring back THJ.  In fact, after the playoff performances of both THJ and Ilyasova, I wouldn't have brought either of them back.  So take Ily off the books too.  We'd be better off adding minimum level contracts to see if a collective of guys at 1 - 3 million could duplicate what THJ and Ily could do.

 

Starting lineup, to me, was fine . . as long as people played up to their potential roles

 

PG - Schröder

G - Baze

F - Prince

PF - Millsap 

C - Howard

 

If we got this year's version of Baze last season, we're probably close to a 50 win team, instead of a 43 win team.  Combine that with the improvement of Prince and Dennis, that's a solid group right there that could challenge for a top 4 seed in the East.   The hope would be that with another year of playing with each other, that this starting lineup would continue to improve on both offense and defense.

With the performance of John Collins in Summer League, you give him a significant role off the bench right away ( a little larger than what he had right now ).   You'd also have to throw Bembry and Tyler Dorsey right into the fire, to see if they could help you as rookies.  

The big thing with the bench, is that we'd have to find a veteran, or a couple of veterans, who could serve as scoring threats.  Those guys were out there this summer.  

- Michael Beasley

- Jeff Green

- Gerald Green

 

Instead, we opted for a guy like Luke Babbitt.   

If you wanted a higher quality PG, Raymond Felton was available at the vet minimum as well.

 

So say our bench looks like this

 

PG - Felton / Delaney

G - Bembry / Dorsey

F - Gerald Green

F - Beasley 

C - Collins / Muscala

 

Of course this doesn't excite people.  The tank crew would rather bottom out and suck for 3 - 5 years.   I personally like going to games LIVE and watching competitive basketball.

 

 

 

 

[davis171]

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

The funny thing is this sounds familiar. Brooklyn is the cautionary tale with this and then while Dallas didn't trade their draft picks recently, they had that slow downward trend this guy says is impossible. Pretty soon, Memphis is also going to prove my point that slow downward trends even if a tank is unplanned will happen. Reality says...this is Planet Earth, not Heaven, and it's going to happen even if you don't want it to unless you're planning strategically for it if you become old (I'm not meaning an older team, I'm meaning a team in which all of the main parts of the core are mid 30s and higher).

And in most cases, outside of San Antonio we haven't seen that.

There is no extremist side that is correct in any argument, from politics to sports. I ultimately may decide I don't like tanking but I'm going to continue arguing here as I HATE extremist arguments in points. 

Okay bring it so you really think I think it is 100% guarntee that tanking is going to work this time around? Obviously I cant predict that but what avanue would you have gone to ensure the future is bright?

 

5 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

No.  After re-upping on Millsap, you can't bring back THJ.  In fact, after the playoff performances of both THJ and Ilyasova, I wouldn't have brought either of them back.  So take Ily off the books too.  We'd be better off adding minimum level contracts to see if a collective of guys at 1 - 3 million could duplicate what THJ and Ily could do.

 

Starting lineup, to me, was fine . . as long as people played up to their potential roles

 

PG - Schröder

G - Baze

F - Prince

PF - Millsap 

C - Howard

 

If we got this year's version of Baze last season, we're probably close to a 50 win team, instead of a 43 win team.  Combine that with the improvement of Prince and Dennis, that's a solid group right there that could challenge for a top 4 seed in the East.   The hope would be that with another year of playing with each other, that this starting lineup would continue to improve on both offense and defense.

With the performance of John Collins in Summer League, you give him a significant role off the bench right away ( a little larger than what he had right now ).   You'd also have to throw Bembry and Tyler Dorsey right into the fire, to see if they could help you as rookies.  

The big thing with the bench, is that we'd have to find a veteran, or a couple of veterans, who could serve as scoring threats.  Those guys were out there this summer.  

- Michael Beasley

- Jeff Green

- Gerald Green

 

Instead, we opted for a guy like Luke Babbitt.   

If you wanted a higher quality PG, Raymond Felton was available at the vet minimum as well.

 

So say our bench looks like this

 

PG - Felton / Delaney

G - Bembry / Dorsey

F - Gerald Green

F - Beasley 

C - Collins / Muscala

 

Of course this doesn't excite people.  The tank crew would rather bottom out and suck for 3 - 5 years.   I personally like going to games LIVE and watching competitive basketball.

 

 

 

 

So Jeff Green decides I'm gunna help this team MAYBE compete for a playoff spot rather than go to the cavs? None of those guys play defense so Bud isn't playing them and what do we do in 3 years when all those guys are 35 with no assets? BTW how in hell is this a 50 win team.

Edited February 28, 2018 by davis171

[davis171]

26 minutes ago, KB21 said:

When Paul is 35, his contract will be up, and John Collins will be ready to step into that spot.

Okay so with no assets and an unproven PF how do you attract FA with no assets what so ever?

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, davis171 said:

Okay so with no assets and an unproven PF how do you attract FA with no assets what so ever?

You let the winning culture attract the free agents.  You continue to sign guys like Paul Millsap and DeMarre Carroll in free agency and let Coach Bud, who is the greatest asset this franchise has, do his thing with them.  

How in the hell do you think a tanking team is going to attract free agents?  Do you think a legitimate free agent is just going to sign with a shitty team with no chance of winning?

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

No.  After re-upping on Millsap, you can't bring back THJ.  In fact, after the playoff performances of both THJ and Ilyasova, I wouldn't have brought either of them back.  So take Ily off the books too.  We'd be better off adding minimum level contracts to see if a collective of guys at 1 - 3 million could duplicate what THJ and Ily could do.

 

Starting lineup, to me, was fine . . as long as people played up to their potential roles

 

PG - Schröder

G - Baze

F - Prince

PF - Millsap 

C - Howard

 

If we got this year's version of Baze last season, we're probably close to a 50 win team, instead of a 43 win team.  Combine that with the improvement of Prince and Dennis, that's a solid group right there that could challenge for a top 4 seed in the East.   The hope would be that with another year of playing with each other, that this starting lineup would continue to improve on both offense and defense.

With the performance of John Collins in Summer League, you give him a significant role off the bench right away ( a little larger than what he had right now ).   You'd also have to throw Bembry and Tyler Dorsey right into the fire, to see if they could help you as rookies.  

The big thing with the bench, is that we'd have to find a veteran, or a couple of veterans, who could serve as scoring threats.  Those guys were out there this summer.  

- Michael Beasley

- Jeff Green

- Gerald Green

 

Instead, we opted for a guy like Luke Babbitt.   

If you wanted a higher quality PG, Raymond Felton was available at the vet minimum as well.

 

So say our bench looks like this

 

PG - Felton / Delaney

G - Bembry / Dorsey

F - Gerald Green

F - Beasley 

C - Collins / Muscala

 

Of course this doesn't excite people.  The tank crew would rather bottom out and suck for 3 - 5 years.   I personally like going to games LIVE and watching competitive basketball.

 

 

 

 

I don't think we get all of those guys (seems like a list of basically the best cheap offseason signings who all went to teams that were better than us last year) but appreciate you giving the feedback.  Specifically, Felton choosing us over OKC with Westbrook, Melo and Geogre; Green choosing us over LeBron and the Cavs; Green choosing us over Harden, Paul and the Rockets...all seem like really tough sells.  Beasley going to NY is the best case and who knows with that guy whether the big market Knicks were a factor but that seems the most likely of those 4 to land in Atlanta.  The other potential obstacle with Beasley is he is a PF now and would have been behind Sap and facing competition for minutes from Collins.  But, again, he seems the most signable of the 3 if you aren't going to pay them more.

The loss of THJr (at least for the regular season) offsets the improvement of Dennis (or actually regression in the case of Prince).  Baze's play would indeed be a boost relative to last year but I don't see any fundamental change and think we roll back a .500 team in this scenario is my take.   That team is a 6-10 seed in the East, IMO.  (Last year's winning % would be the #9 seed today).  I do agree it would be more entertaining to watch for this season and would have zero path to contender status.

That all assumes Sap is healthy but with his ligaments giving out and playing only 17 games you can put us in the lottery today under that scenario.  

[davis171]

Just now, KB21 said:

You let the winning culture attract the free agents.  You continue to sign guys like Paul Millsap and DeMarre Carroll in free agency and let Coach Bud, who is the greatest asset this franchise has, do his thing with them.  

How in the hell do you think a tanking team is going to attract free agents?  Do you think a legitimate free agent is just going to sign with a shitty team with no chance of winning?

By bringing in a LeBron, KD, Steph, etc. The hawks have been doing what you are saying for the past decade and it didn't work sorry. 

[AHF]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

You let the winning culture attract the free agents.  You continue to sign guys like Paul Millsap and DeMarre Carroll in free agency and let Coach Bud, who is the greatest asset this franchise has, do his thing with them.  

How in the hell do you think a tanking team is going to attract free agents?  Do you think a legitimate free agent is just going to sign with a shitty team with no chance of winning?

Guess we'll see with Philly over the next two offseasons (assuming you think Redick is not a legit FA).

[CBAreject]

6 hours ago, Diesel said:

This is the problem with most Hawks fans.. especially those on the tank train.   They believe that because we got a new GM that our drafts will be better.  They fail to realize that it's a much stronger possibility that they won't.   We don't even have players who we are targetting with this tank pick.  This draft itself might be a bust.  But No Hawks fan believe that anybody aside for Knight and Babcock can mess up a pick?

 

 

I’m not sure how you managed to cram that many straw men into the first paragraph.  Nobody believes any of what you’re saying they do.  Nobody said the draft guarantees anything.  Nobody said a new GM will definitely draft better than BK and Babcock, or that they couldn’t mess up a pick, but it would be hard to do worse.  

Here’s one thing that was a guarantee: if we’d kept our roster intact we’d have continued to be a first-round playoff fluffer with almost no pathway to become a contender  that didn’t involve eventually becoming really bad.  So we accelerated things.  

Winning culture or no, you can’t sign anybody with no cap room, and even when we were coming off 2 straight seasons among the East elite, had the best culture in the conference, and DID have cap room, none of the top free agents wanted to come here.  We signed Howard because few other teams wanted him, and few other players wanted our money.  It is sad but true.  If we want a star, with have to play the lottery, and everyone knows a lottery is just that.  

[CBAreject]

2 hours ago, KB21 said:

You let the winning culture attract the free agents.  You continue to sign guys like Paul Millsap and DeMarre Carroll in free agency and let Coach Bud, who is the greatest asset this franchise has, do his thing with them.  

How in the hell do you think a tanking team is going to attract free agents?  Do you think a legitimate free agent is just going to sign with a shitty team with no chance of winning?

We had a winning culture—arguably the best in the conference, and we attracted a Dwight Howard in steep decline, coming back to his hometown.  Durant had a chance to become a legend in the East, but he chose to form a super team with the league MVP.  This has been a trend of every star FA in recent memory—George, Paul, James, Bosh, Howard (5 years ago), Durant.   All those guys signed to pair up with other superstars.  That was the “winning culture” they were seeking.

We can Keep signing the Thabos, Carrolls, and Dedmons of the league by promising them playing time and a good coach.  To attract stars, we need stars 

[AHF]

Here is SI's article on tanking and proposal of a tournament to determine lottery position:

 

https://www.si.com/nba/2018/02/28/nba-lottery-tournament-tanking-draft-odds-adam-silver-reform

 

It is an interesting read all around.

[KB21]

The ONLY thing tanking guarantees is losing.  That's it.  Tanking does not give you a better path to greatness.   It only guarantees losing.

[davis171]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

The ONLY thing tanking guarantees is losing.  That's it.  Tanking does not give you a better path to greatness.   It only guarantees losing.

so what is the difference between being 10th or 14th because thats the difference I see? both teams miss the playoffs one has more options in the draft.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, davis171 said:

so what is the difference between being 10th or 14th because thats the difference I see? both teams miss the playoffs one has more options in the draft.

The difference it that it is easier and faster to go from 40 wins to 55 wins than it is to go from 18 wins to 55 wins.

[davis171]

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

The difference it that it is easier and faster to go from 40 wins to 55 wins than it is to go from 18 wins to 55 wins.

Not when your best player would be 33. What do we do when Sap is 35 sign another all star forward at an incredible deal? that isn't repeatable.

Edited February 28, 2018 by davis171

[AHF]

35 minutes ago, KB21 said:

The difference it that it is easier and faster to go from 40 wins to 55 wins than it is to go from 18 wins to 55 wins.

It is easier to go from any win total to a championship with a future MVP on your roster than it is to go from 40 wins to a title without an MVP talent.  It is easier to get MVP talent at the top of the draft than trade or free agency when your market isn't LA, etc. and you don't have lottery picks/talent to dangle in a trade.

Eh.  Why am I bothering.

 

Please ignore this post and resume your roster building.  Here is where you left off:

 

22 hours ago, AHF said:

Here is your roster as you start to look at trades - you are presently over the cap.

 

Roster Spots		Salary
1	Dwight Howard	$23,500,000
2	Paul Millsap	$31,269,231
3	Kent Bazemore	$16,910,113
4	Ersan Ilyasova	$6,000,000
5	John Collins	$1,936,920
6	Tyler Dorsey	$815,615
7	Dennis Schröder	$15,500,000
8	Malcolm Delaney	$2,500,000
9	Taurean Waller-Prince	$2,422,560
10	DeAndre' Bembry	$1,567,200
11	Mike Muscala	$5,000,000
12
13
14
15
	Total:	$107,421,639

 

What is the hypothetical next move?

 

[TheFuzz]

Random thought, and let me preface this with saying that I'm ok with where we're at right now, but...

I was against tanking before the season because of players like Donovan Mitchell. There's a stud in the middle of the draft almost every year it seems. Having said that, we're here at the bottom now and might as well ride it out to pick someone good.

[Sothron]

I still don't understand why people want to debate this with that guy. He's a  broken record. We've been having this argument for an entire season plus last offseason. The team is clearly tanking and looking to rebuild through the draft. At this point it is like talking about last week's weather as to rather or not we should do it. The team IS ALREADY doing it.

Best thing to argue about now is with the current team and potential picks/free agents...where do we go from here? How do we get better? Is there any players out there that you, the individual poster, want us to draft or sign/trade for?

These are the debates we should be having. Not this endless cycle of the merits of tanking or not tanking.

[AtlKauzie]

10 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I still don't understand why people want to debate this with that guy. He's a  broken record. We've been having this argument for an entire season plus last offseason. The team is clearly tanking and looking to rebuild through the draft. At this point it is like talking about last week's weather as to rather or not we should do it. The team IS ALREADY doing it.

Best thing to argue about now is with the current team and potential picks/free agents...where do we go from here? How do we get better? Is there any players out there that you, the individual poster, want us to draft or sign/trade for?

These are the debates we should be having. Not this endless cycle of the merits of tanking or not tanking.

This is what I've tried to do since i started posting here, im starting to to think it's a futal effort at this point.