The Tank Thread

[Sothron]

57 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Not the bad boys.   Wallace, Wallace, and the rest of that team that beat Shaq and Kobe. 

Ah, ok, I gotcha. I couldn't tell which era you were referring to.

[JTB]

Is miles bridges a possible Kawhi Leonard under bud?

looking at bridges he has some very good strengths! He’s good at defense, good on the boards, decent at the 3 ball and a hell of an athletic drive and finisher!

his off ball skills are amazing. Seems like the only thing he need to truly continue to work on is his ability to create shots on his own consistently. His pull up game in iso is weak , yet his shot ability while moving in the air is good !

i see the potential in him being an all around player, maybe even this drafts dark horse to be the closes thing to Leonard after he has some nba seasons under his belt!

 

your thoughts?

[davis171]

1 hour ago, JTB said:

Is miles bridges a possible Kawhi Leonard under bud?

looking at bridges he has some very good strengths! He’s good at defense, good on the boards, decent at the 3 ball and a hell of an athletic drive and finisher!

his off ball skills are amazing. Seems like the only thing he need to truly continue to work on is his ability to create shots on his own consistently. His pull up game in iso is weak , yet his shot ability while moving in the air is good !

i see the potential in him being an all around player, maybe even this drafts dark horse to be the closes thing to Leonard after he has some nba seasons under his belt!

 

your thoughts?

I like Bridges but you can't even consider him in the top 7 imo. Doncic, Ayton, Porter jr, JJJ, Bamba, Young, Bagley

Edited March 8, 2018 by davis171

[cam1218]

Porter Jr. is playing today against UGA, FYI.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Anomaly.

I think when you really sit back and look at it clearly...The better question is:

Which championship quality team was LED by the player that they drafted in the lottery?I mean, Stacy King was a Lottery pick and he won championships with the Bulls.  So you telling me that Stacy Kings of the league means something is ridiculous. 

 

The Bulls were built around #3 Jordan and #5 Pippen.  Both guys they drafted.  (Don't bring any semantic BS telling me how Chicago didn't draft Pippen or Dallas didn't draft Nowitzki).  

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It's unfortunate that we have on the brain Cleveland and GS.GS was actually led by KD last year.  And the post season MVP for their first title was Iguodala.  Both players started somewhere else. 

Iggy was great but that team was built around their lottery picks.  There is no argument.  That is why KD threw in the white towel and joined them.

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Cleveland was led by Lebron.. but actually, Lebron was picked up via trade. 

LeBron was not picked up in an arm's length trade.  He chose to return to Cleveland when he was a FA because of the lottery talent they had accumulated.

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Before that Miami was Led by Lebron.  Picked up in FAcy.  

Miami won their first title with home drafted Finals MVP Dwyane Wade and traded for Shaq by dealing a lottery pick.

LeBron was actually technically traded to Miami but chose them purely because he wanted to team up with Dwyane Wade.  If Miami hadn't had cap space and their drafted Finals MVP player he would not have come.  You have to have the elite talent to attract them by.

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San Antonio was led by Duncan or Kawhi.  so they are the anomoly that fits your argument. 

SA definitely drafted all their key players.  No argument there.  Never have been close to a ring without #1 overall Tim Duncan.  Legend.

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Then we go to Shaq/Kobe. 

Traded for a lottery pick to take Kobe who won titles where Shaq was the #1 player and then titles where it was Kobe's team.  

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Then we go to Detroit.  

Anomoly time.  Only Ben Wallace used a high lottery pick to acquire.

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Then we finally get to where you want to be with Jordan/AI/Utah/and Houston. 

But here's the deal.   back when it was Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Dr. J.. the #1 pick in the draft meant somehting.   Now with the 1 and dones.. not so much.   Now.. having a lottery pick led team is rare and having a player lead the team that was picked up in FAcy or Trade winning the finals is more commonplace. 

No argument there with Chicago, Detroit, LA, Bos, Philly -- all had MVP high picks who were core guys (Magic, Bird, McHale, Worthy, Malone, Thomas, etc.)

[AHF]

1 hour ago, DS5 said:

Obviously, all these "what-if" conversations are hypothetical... but I don't understand what the "anti-tankers" (KB21, Diesel) think the Hawks should have done? Specifically, Schlenk...he came in to a pretty crappy situation and made the best out of it, before tanking doesn't get you as many chances at a high pick (once lottery rules change in '19). 

What's the alternative here? And I'm talking from the time that Schlenk was hired. Do you keep Dwight and Paul for a combined $55 million? How far would that get you? Maaaaaybe playoffs and a 1st round exit? How would you (hypothetically) improve that team? In that scenario, you have Dennis at $15.5 million, Baze at $17 million (and going up), Dwight at $23.5 million, Sap at $30 mil. That's 80% of the salary cap tied to those 4 guys. Trades? No assets. Free agency? No money. 

That is an open question.

[AHF]

Here is where we left off on that roster building:

Roster Spots		Salary
1	Dwight Howard	$23,500,000
2	Paul Millsap	$31,269,231
3	Kent Bazemore	$16,910,113
4	Ersan Ilyasova	$6,000,000
5	Jordan Bell	$1,936,920
6	Juwan Evans	$815,615
7	Dennis Schröder	$15,500,000
8	Malcolm Delaney	$2,500,000
9	Taurean Waller-Prince	$2,422,560
10	DeAndre' Bembry	$1,567,200
11	Mike Muscala	$5,000,000
12	Thabo Sephalosha	$5,250,000
13
14
15
	Total:	$112,671,639

[Royjr9]

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

Here is where we left off on that roster building:

Roster Spots		Salary
1	Dwight Howard	$23,500,000
2	Paul Millsap	$31,269,231
3	Kent Bazemore	$16,910,113
4	Ersan Ilyasova	$6,000,000
5	Jordan Bell	$1,936,920
6	Juwan Evans	$815,615
7	Dennis Schröder	$15,500,000
8	Malcolm Delaney	$2,500,000
9	Taurean Waller-Prince	$2,422,560
10	DeAndre' Bembry	$1,567,200
11	Mike Muscala	$5,000,000
12	Thabo Sephalosha	$5,250,000
13
14
15
	Total:	$112,671,639

I’m not sure what that team accomplishes maybe a 7 game series we eventually lose in the 1st round.

[AHF]

Just now, Royjr9 said:

I’m not sure what that team accomplishes maybe a 7 game series we eventually lose in the 1st round.

Granting that the team isn't finished there, it looks like a lottery team with Sap's injury to me.

[JTB]

1 hour ago, davis171 said:

I like Bridges but you can't even consider him in the top 7 imo. Doncic, Ayton, Porter jr, JJJ, Bamba, Young, Bagley

Oh yeah I agree...see I’m already thinking we are going to get screwed in this lottery and end up drafting #8 unfortunately 

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, High5 said:

This is why I have to take breaks before jumping back into the tank discussion. Use your head, man. Does LeBron go to Miami without Wade? Does LeBron go to Cleveland without Kyrie and Love? Does KD go to GS without Steph and Klay? Thanks for graciously conceding San Antonio, but how about the lottery picks involved in the Boston and Dallas championships? Right, so we're back to my original post. You need lottery picks to win championships, plain and simple. 

Not if your team is built with other stars and you trade?

We had a lottery pick.  Al.  We had allstars galore at one point.  People wanted to play with us but we didn't bring those guys in.  Instead, we decided our best mode of action was to trade away everybody for nothing and go after the lottery pick.   That's nothing like what you see with Miami and Cleveland.

You said does Lebron go to Cleveland without Kyrie and Love?  Well, after the league so graciously gave Cleveland all those #1 picks... I guess he did.  BUT Lebron built his own teams.  That includes Miami.   Lebron knows that he can't win a championship without lots of help. 

In fact, Lebron is the first superstar that built his own team.  

I noted that you left Detroit out of the discussion.  Was that because you recognize that they were built by a GM who knew how to build that team.

Funny though, you mentioned the Celtics.. Ainge was the architecht of that team and Ainge wins every deal he gets into.   It's not that Ray Allen and KG said.. hey, i want to go to Boston to play with Pierce.  No.  Ainge built the team with the things he had.   Schlenk could not do that.  In fact, Schlenk gave away the things he had and just hoped to get a lottery pick.   That's the same thing alot of the treadmill GMs do.   Expect to be back in the lottery and out of the playoffs for the next 4 years. 

 

[davis171]

19 minutes ago, JTB said:

Oh yeah I agree...see I’m already thinking we are going to get screwed in this lottery and end up drafting #8 unfortunately 

After that group I like Bridges but I would say

 

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Not if your team is built with other stars and you trade?

We had a lottery pick.  Al.  We had allstars galore at one point.  People wanted to play with us but we didn't bring those guys in.  Instead, we decided our best mode of action was to trade away everybody for nothing and go after the lottery pick.   That's nothing like what you see with Miami and Cleveland.

You said does Lebron go to Cleveland without Kyrie and Love?  Well, after the league so graciously gave Cleveland all those #1 picks... I guess he did.  BUT Lebron built his own teams.  That includes Miami.   Lebron knows that he can't win a championship without lots of help. 

In fact, Lebron is the first superstar that built his own team.  

I noted that you left Detroit out of the discussion.  Was that because you recognize that they were built by a GM who knew how to build that team.

Funny though, you mentioned the Celtics.. Ainge was the architecht of that team and Ainge wins every deal he gets into.   It's not that Ray Allen and KG said.. hey, i want to go to Boston to play with Pierce.  No.  Ainge built the team with the things he had.   Schlenk could not do that.  In fact, Schlenk gave away the things he had and just hoped to get a lottery pick.   That's the same thing alot of the treadmill GMs do.   Expect to be back in the lottery and out of the playoffs for the next 4 years. 

 

the Celtics won 25 games like 5 years ago because Ainge traded away his core for draft picks lol. Which is exactly what we should have done last year for Sap.

Edited March 8, 2018 by davis171

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, DS5 said:

Obviously, all these "what-if" conversations are hypothetical... but I don't understand what the "anti-tankers" (KB21, Diesel) think the Hawks should have done? Specifically, Schlenk...he came in to a pretty crappy situation and made the best out of it, before tanking doesn't get you as many chances at a high pick (once lottery rules change in '19). 

What's the alternative here? And I'm talking from the time that Schlenk was hired. Do you keep Dwight and Paul for a combined $55 million? How far would that get you? Maaaaaybe playoffs and a 1st round exit? How would you (hypothetically) improve that team? In that scenario, you have Dennis at $15.5 million, Baze at $17 million (and going up), Dwight at $23.5 million, Sap at $30 mil. That's 80% of the salary cap tied to those 4 guys. Trades? No assets. Free agency? No money. 

So trading Dwight Howard & our 31st pick for Plumlee Belinelli and the 41st pick is making the best out of it??

Letting Millsap walk for Nothing is making the best out of it??

 

Schlenk has gotten all of you tankers to believe that making a bad trade (horrible trade) and making dumb moves is worth it because we're going to tank for a high pick.  However, when that high pick turns out to be not so good, you're going to look at the totality of the dumb moves we have made and say... "why did we do that?"    I'm just seeing all this early because I've seen it before. 

 

[davis171]

Just now, Diesel said:

So trading Dwight Howard & our 31st pick for Plumlee Belinelli and the 41st pick is making the best out of it??

Letting Millsap walk for Nothing is making the best out of it??

 

Schlenk has gotten all of you tankers to believe that making a bad trade (horrible trade) and making dumb moves is worth it because we're going to tank for a high pick.  However, when that high pick turns out to be not so good, you're going to look at the totality of the dumb moves we have made and say... "why did we do that?"    I'm just seeing all this early because I've seen it before. 

 

This is why you aren't an NBA GM. You give up minimal asset of 31st-41st to gain the asset of cap space this coming offseason. No one was going to give you positive value for Dwight Howard for 20+ million a year for 3 years.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

The Bulls were built around #3 Jordan and #5 Pippen.  Both guys they drafted.  (Don't bring any semantic BS telling me how Chicago didn't draft Pippen or Dallas didn't draft Nowitzki).  

 

Now let's understand why I introduced King.   The argument is taking a swing where somebody wants to say that if your championship team has a lottery pick then it counts for something.   My take is the quality of the lottery pick (did he lead the team) matters more than just having one.    Simple. 

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, davis171 said:

This is why you aren't an NBA GM. You give up minimal asset of 31st-41st to gain the asset of cap space this coming offseason. No one was going to give you positive value for Dwight Howard for 20+ million a year for 3 years.

Bullshit.  Plumlee is signed for longer than Howard was.  The 31st pick was like having a 1st rounder. 

[davis171]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Bullshit. 

Then why don't you see a team in Charlotte who desperately needs cap relief moving on from him for better assets???? The Hornets were using Kemba as trade bait to take some of the cap away! Nobody wants Dwight Howard making 20+ million a year. Plumlee's contract is significantly less per year. We shed 12+ million in the trade for this coming off-season.

Edited March 8, 2018 by davis171

[JTB]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

So trading Dwight Howard & our 31st pick for Plumlee Belinelli and the 41st pick is making the best out of it??

Letting Millsap walk for Nothing is making the best out of it??

 

Schlenk has gotten all of you tankers to believe that making a bad trade (horrible trade) and making dumb moves is worth it because we're going to tank for a high pick.  However, when that high pick turns out to be not so good, you're going to look at the totality of the dumb moves we have made and say... "why did we do that?"    I'm just seeing all this early because I've seen it before. 

 

Well I won’t disagree with that. There’s a lot of proof that tanking doesn’t always pan out and sometimes it does ...with that said get over it! 

We’ve already started the tank process and are well into it. My only hope is that Schlenk gets the guy he purposely tanked for so that he can try to create his vision for this team.

youre making points we are all aware of ....I’m just hoping for once it turns out good for this franchise cause obviously whether we tank or not we don’t seem to be successful in building any kind of championship caliber team no matter what route is taken to do it.

[davis171]

IMO it is clear Schlenk is not just trying to tank because I don't think Dwight leads to wins (Charlotte is great right). He opened up cap space to go after a free agent class that won't have many players. 

[AHF]

22 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Funny though, you mentioned the Celtics.. Ainge was the architecht of that team and Ainge wins every deal he gets into.   It's not that Ray Allen and KG said.. hey, i want to go to Boston to play with Pierce.  No.  Ainge built the team with the things he had.   Schlenk could not do that.  In fact, Schlenk gave away the things he had and just hoped to get a lottery pick.   That's the same thing alot of the treadmill GMs do.   Expect to be back in the lottery and out of the playoffs for the next 4 years. 

 

Boston acquired PP via lottery pick.  Traded a lottery pick for Allen and traded another two lottery picks and other assets (including Al Jefferson and Gerald Green both drafted by Boston) for KG.

Boston doesn't end up with any of those players without lottery picks.